Shot placement question

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

The results are similar to those with less than perfect neck or head shots.The animal drops at the shot,then sometimes regains it's feet and runs off.

Absolutely they are. I much prefer seeing an animals front legs fold and then go down on his face than his front legs stiffen and go down on his rear end.

[gitrdun]

Ok, so I had to refer back to the original thread and noticed that the OP hadn't mentioned what type of animal. I've a deer standing broadside 100 yards from me, which doesn't get any easier than that, it's going to be a heart shot. In this scenario, I don't see the point of anchoring an animal that doesn't want to eat me and wasting a bunch of meat that I want for sausage. If that animal was a grizz for which I had a legal tag, then of course the shoulder shot would be made. Seems to me that there are a lot of differing circumstances that would make either a good call. So, everybody's right and everybody's wrong.

Originally Posted by chuck

That's interesting. I've heard Andrew Dawson, a well respected African PH say he does not like shooting dangerous game "above the halfway line".

If you knew much about African game anatomy you'd understand why. I typically find that opinions on shot placement from experts are kind of like belly buttons, everyone has one. Typically they are not all the same but typically none are wrong either. Lots of ways to kill a ______ (insert animal name here) I just find it's best not to criticize another's man's choice when it obviously works. Remember, you are the guy that loves video proof

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

If you knew much about African game anatomy you'd understand why.

They don't have a CNS?

Originally Posted by chuck

They don't have a CNS?

Nope! Just as the water in the toilet bowls goes backwards in southern Africa, so too do the nerves and blood flow. It's kind of complicated. One of those things you have to see to understand. Freaked me out the first time I saw the water swirling the wrong way.

[Pathfinder76]

I actually have a late friend that shot a couple of Cape Buffalo with a 300 win mag. He shot them where the neck joins the shoulder in the spine because of the cartridge he was shooting. He felt that was the best option. I have another friend that shot two Cape Buffalo in the heart with a 7X57 Mauser. His results were less dramatic, but just as foregone. Both these men are very experienced hunters and both fantastic game shots.

There are several ways to skin a cat. I'm just relaying what I've seen and experienced. Do whatever the heck you want with it.

Originally Posted by chuck

I actually have a late friend that shot a couple of Cape Buffalo with a 300 win mag. He shot them where the neck joins the shoulder in the spine because of the cartridge he was shooting. He felt that was the best option. I have another friend that shot two Cape Buffalo in the heart with a 7X57 Mauser. His results were less dramatic, but just as foregone. Both these men are very experienced hunters and both fantastic game shots.

And I'm betting they both had belly buttons too....

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

If you knew much about African game anatomy you'd understand why. I typically find that opinions on shot placement from experts are kind of like belly buttons, everyone has one. Typically they are not all the same but typically none are wrong either. Lots of ways to kill a ______ (insert animal name here) I just find it's best not to criticize another's man's choice when it obviously works. Remember, you are the guy that loves video proof

Sorry, I didn't catch this edit.

You are once again putting words in my mouth. I'm not criticizing anyone. Nor am I sure what your video comment has anything to do with this thread or anything I've said on it. In fact, I don't recall asking for video proof elsewhere either.

Originally Posted by chuck

Sorry, I didn't catch this edit.

You are once again putting words in my mouth. I'm not criticizing anyone. Nor am I sure what your video comment has anything to do with this thread or anything I've said on it. In fact, I don't recall asking for video proof elsewhere either.

Calling the high shoulder shot iffy is indeed criticizing when several people on here have stated it's a favourite of theirs. You didn't have many friends in grade school did you? Saying the high shoulder shot is just another of a myriad of shots that will get the job done...now that wouldn't be criticizing. See the difference? Go take a look at your belly button...you'll understand then.

I can show you some video if you like

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Calling the high shoulder shot iffy is indeed criticizing when I've stated it's a favourite of mine as have several others on here. You didn't have many friends in grade school did you? Saying the high shoulder shot is just another of a myriad of shots that will get the job done...now that wouldn't be criticizing. See the difference?

I can show you some video if you like

For once I'm speechless. I just don't know what to say to that.

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by huntinstuff

Blasting the shoulders out is a great way to anchor an animal for sure. Good bullet.

I tend to shoot behind the shoulder because i know it works every time. Yes i might have to track the animal but i tend to take my time so to me, tracking is just part of it all

Mostly, my animal is dead within 100yds of where it was shot, but i dont pursue right away so really i just delay getting my animal

What he said.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Calling the high shoulder shot iffy is indeed criticizing when several people on here have stated it's a favourite of theirs. You didn't have many friends in grade school did you? Saying the high shoulder shot is just another of a myriad of shots that will get the job done...now that wouldn't be criticizing. See the difference? Go take a look at your belly button...you'll understand then.

I can show you some video if you like

Thank goodness I caught that edit.

Originally Posted by chuck

For once I'm speechless.

I'm sure it's just a temporary condition

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Why would he need to speak to the hunter,they found the deer, and tagged it, so they obviously know where the bullet struck.

i think the point 209 was making is that only the hunter would know where he/she aimed. could very well be that the hunter was aiming behind the shoulder but hit high and left or whatever. i know you have shot enough guns and hunted enough critters to accept that not every bullet out of a gun ends up perfectly where it was intended to go.

as for the deer chuck found, if it did indeed have broken shoulders then it didnt run anywhere. with no support in the front end, animals fall down and usually die within a minute or two. i found one in a similar situation. he fell a long ways from a road which tells me he wasnt the victim of a driveby shooting. it was rolling sandhills fairly open. the deer was fully alive, but spined. someone shot him....i would guess an hour or two prior....and he fell right there. i put him out of his misery and put my tag on him. i drove him to the meat shop involved in the foodbank program and called F&W on the way. they told me i should have called them first, but since i did what i did and was donating it, they issued me a new tag. it is hard to believe that someone walked away from that buck. it was a whitetail that scored 155. i will give them the benefit of the doubt that they just didnt go follow up the shot and the deer fell out of their sight. at least i hope they didnt get close and see that he was suffering from ground shrinkage.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

i think the point 209 was making is that only the hunter would know where he/she aimed. could very well be that the hunter was aiming behind the shoulder but hit high and left or whatever. i know you have shot enough guns and hunted enough critters to accept that not every bullet out of a gun ends up perfectly where it was intended to go.

.

Where he/she was aiming has absolutely nothing to do with it.

[elkhunter11]

i think the point 209 was making is that only the hunter would know where he/she aimed.

Where the hunter intended the bullet to strike is really irrelevant to the point that Chuck was making.The point that he was making was that the bullet did strike high in the shoulders,and the shot obviously did not immobilize the deer, or kill it cleanly.

as for the deer chuck found, if it did indeed have broken shoulders then it didnt run anywhere. with no support in the front end, animals fall down and usually die within a minute or two.

I didn't see anything in Chuck's post about the deer having two broken shoulders.He posted that it had been "high shoulder shot".

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by chuck

Where he/she was aiming has absolutely nothing to do with it.

it sure does....especially when my point was that 209 said this

Originally Posted by 209x50

Animals routinely get up from any poorly made shot, no matter where the shooter was aiming. I mean really you never spoke to the hunter so how do you know that the wounded mule deer wasn't the result of a poor lung shot?

and ill state the obvious again.....if that mule buck had broken shoulders, he didnt go anywhere....it just isnt possible.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

it sure does....especially when my point was that 209 said this





and ill state the obvious again.....if that mule buck had broken shoulders, he didnt go anywhere....it just isnt possible.

I don't really care what 209 says and where in the world did I say this Mule Deer had two broken shoulders?

This is like the twilight zone.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Where the hunter intended the bullet to strike is really irrelevant to the point that Chuck was making.The point that he was making was that the bullet did strike high in the shoulders,and the shot obviously did not immobilize the deer, or kill it cleanly.



I didn't see anything in Chuck's post about the deer having two broken shoulders.He posted that it had been "high shoulder shot".

elk, i got chucks point just fine. you however missed 209s point. further, i think chucks definition of high shopulder may be a little broad. if the shoulders arent broken, then to call it a shoulder shot is a little vague.

i wont speak for everyone when i say that to me, a shoulder shot is the point of the shoulder....like an inch or so down from the ball joint. think how you are built....the shoulder blade is actually the back. hit there and there is nothing vital between. hit the point of the shoulder and not only does the animal drop of its face, but there is a lot of vital organs in between.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

i wont speak for everyone when i say that to me, a shoulder shot is the point of the shoulder....like an inch or so down from the ball joint.

That is not a high shoulder shot in my book. In fact, this is where I prefer to hit an animal.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by chuck

That is not a high shoulder shot in my book. In fact, this is where I prefer to hit an animal.

well, then i reckon we are in agreement. sometimes communication over the internet isnt as easy as it seems.

[big-river]

209.
Age is irrelevant. Experience is tantamount. Read into what I wrote. It was to say that I was older but had also done some hunting. In defence of what some on here who made disparaging comments on age and old calibre/bullet technologies.

Equanuck.
Dangerous game is dangerous game. Doesn't matter how many guides you have there. I killed a Brown Bear at 20 yards while wading down a salmon stream. The bear just walked out on a sand bar and stared us down. Was my guide less of a guide for putting me in that situation? It certainly was a bad spot to be in. I'll be sure to pass on what your ruling on this is.

Let me ask the folks on here. Anyone ever lose a animal shot thru the lungs and or heart? I know I never have. Ever.
I have had animals shot in the shoulders leave town tho. Never to be seen again. People ask where I think we should aim on dangerous game, I say what I think based on experience. I know my Alaska Brown Bear guide has had trouble with the shoulder shots too.

If anyone on here wants to shoot for shoulders, be my guest. Have at it. Makes not whit of difference to me. But sooner or later you will lose a big game animal. It's not going to be any different than what I have experienced. Old geezer or not.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

a shoulder shot is the point of the shoulder....like an inch or so down from the ball joint.

Bambi, I would describe your desription as closer to the elbow as opposed as to high on the shoulder.

In reading this thread, I am curious as to a better description of a "high shoulder" shot from those who advocate them.


209, SH, will you explain more concisely a "high shoulder" shot?

[LongDraw]

Looking at a shoulder blade the higher you get from the ball (bottom) the thinner the ridge and blade, and all bone mass becomes. Far from one of the expert opinions here, but from what I have seen there is a fine line with a "high" shoulder shot being too high, or slightly too forward. Hitting below the spine, above and forward of the lungs and not breaking the shoulder, but rather punching a hole in the paddle is a possibility.

Hitting the shoulder breaking sweet spot sure makes for a spectacular bang flop, but a little too forward and high you are in an area where you may not hit something vital. There is little doubt that aiming slightly behind the shoulder, center of mass or slightly below offers the largest vital area target. Not often a "bang flop", but when you punch a hole through the lungs it always results in a dead critter.

Big River, you hit both shoulders or one shoulder and lungs and you aren't going to lose an animal. You miss the shot and yup, you might. I always find it interesting how when an animal that gets away it was a perfect shot to the shoulders but it still got away. Well here's some news...it wasn't perfect, you missed! No different than with a perfect heart/lung shot that you miss

No one has even mentioned cartridge in this discussion yet you keep going on about it. Put a good bullet in any cartridge suitable for big game and make a good shot and you have a dead critter. End of story. We are taking shot placement......not uber magnums.

And there are tons of guys on here with loads of experience...regardless of age. It don't matter how old you or your gun is. You make a good shot and things fall over. You don't and they run away.

I guess there is one other possible explaination for al these shoulder shot animals getting away though.

[elkhunter11]

i wont speak for everyone when i say that to me, a shoulder shot is the point of the shoulder....like an inch or so down from the ball joint.

Would your description of a shoulder shot be considered a "high" shoulder shot, if it is below the ball joint?I consider a "high" shoulder shot to be "high" on the shoulder,which would put it at the very top part of the vitals.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by big-river

209.
Let me ask the folks on here. Anyone ever lose a animal shot thru the lungs and or heart? I know I never have. Ever.
I have had animals shot in the shoulders leave town tho. Never to be seen again. People ask where I think we should aim on dangerous game, I say what I think based on experience. I know my Alaska Brown Bear guide has had trouble with the shoulder shots too.

.

actually, i have killed well over 100 big game animals and in that time have had the misfortune of losing exactly 1. he took an interbond through the lungs at about 80 yards. he bucked and took off through the thickest nastiest brush the north sask river has to offer. about 40 yards along the trail there was a fist sized chunk of jellied lung laying on the ground. there is no doubt he died within a few hundred yards, but i never found him. my friend and i were on our hands and knees trying to find blood in waist high grass for hours. we lost blood after about 200 yards or so. i went back the next day, and the next hoping the coyotes and magpies would help locate him. i even went back the following spring once the grass was flat and the snow melted to try to find the skeleton. i dont know where he went.

as for animals running away with broken shoulders.....well.....see the explanation of shoulders a few posts back. maybe the shoulder definition needs some refinement.

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Bambi, I would describe your desription as closer to the elbow as opposed as to high on the shoulder.

In reading this thread, I am curious as to a better description of a "high shoulder" shot from those who advocate them.


209, SH, will you explain more concisely a "high shoulder" shot?

#3

[Pathfinder76]

I'd love to see video of a Dall Ram with it's feet in the air and pictures of said ram's entrance and exit wounds. That might clear up a few misconceptions here I'd suspect.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Would your description of a shoulder shot be considered a "high" shoulder shot, if it is below the ball joint?I consider a "high" shoulder shot to be "high" on the shoulder,which would put it at the very top part of the vitals.

no elk...i wouldnt call it high at all. in any post ive ever made about advocating a shoulder shot i have never said "high". for me, the "point" of the shoulder is where i want to hit. not the elbow, not the shoulder blade, not the spine, but the point of the shoulder. you break those bones and no animal on the planet can run anywhere. with those bones broken there is no support for the body to stand, and the lungs and heart are in between....depending on the exact angle you will hit some of those vital organs. use a gun with enough ENERGY to drive a well constructed bullet through and you will create a HOLE that anchors and kills an animal very well. that was a heated debate as well....one in which i declared that you need both to get it done.