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  #181  
Old 02-02-2015, 12:09 PM
Pudelpointer Pudelpointer is offline
 
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Wow, there is so much "win" on this thread it is shocking.


First, a quick search shows commercially available ammo available for the 38-55 running a 255 @ 2950.... so it is not at all a stretch to run a 255 at 2100 - is it "over pressure" for the cartridge design? Yes, it very likely is. Is it over pressure for the rifle in question, possibly but obviously not catastrophically.


FYI you cannot "convert" CUP to PSI. You can make an educated guess, but that's it.

As for the continued assertion that a 255gr ~.377 bullet will become "unstable" as it changes state from supersonic to subsonic show a lack of understanding of ballistics. Will a long nosed, ultra high BC Berger become a tumbling hunk of metal changing states? Absolutely. Will a heavy, stout, sub 2.5 BC lose its stability making the same transition? Maybe some should get that figured out before commenting further.


Do the "naysayers" have personal experience with Rman that would cause them to disbelieve his marksmanship? Or are you just unable to accept it?

I don't know Rman, but I have no reason to doubt his claim. Now, if he later admitted that he was actually leaning on the hood of his truck....
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  #182  
Old 02-02-2015, 12:20 PM
Pudelpointer Pudelpointer is offline
 
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Since others can't figure it out.... the 375 Win (available in the '94) runs at 50,000CUP.



Just, wow.
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  #183  
Old 02-02-2015, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergerboy View Post
The cartridge of discussion is a 38-55.
The cartridge of discussion is the 38-55, which can be made from 30-30 brass.

The 30-30 and the 38-55 have the same rim size. If the rifle can handle 38,000 Cup from the 30-30, it can handle the same from the 38-55.

The rifle of discussion is the Winchester 94. Gitrdun called it a rifle with a pressure max of 30,000 psi. I pointed out that it can handle more.
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  #184  
Old 02-02-2015, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by edmhunter View Post
^^^^ IMHO this is the only real way to settle this matter as gentlemen. All the charts and calculations in the world don't mean a thing, especially if the shooter posts an unedited video of the shooting taking place at 500 yards. Just saying!
I must disagree edmhunter, charts and ballistic calculations are very meaningful. However, in the spirit of good sportsmanship and matter of gentleman I do agree on your means of settling this.

Therefore, I can provide Rman with a range only 5 minutes from my house out to 500 yards and a very good back stop. I can provide my chrono and if mine isn't suitable, then he is welcome to use his. I will also provide my long range Bullseye camera which records each and every shot in consecutive order. He can pick a nice sunny and windless day. He should bring his witnesses, I can also provide a couple more. Video of him shooting and video record on target. If he replicates not only the muzzle velocity of 2100ish FPS stated for 255 gr projectile and somewhat of a similar target to that which was previously provided, I will gladly offer public apology for my doubtfulness.
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  #185  
Old 02-02-2015, 12:51 PM
edmhunter edmhunter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gitrdun View Post
I must disagree edmhunter, charts and ballistic calculations are very meaningful. However, in the spirit of good sportsmanship and matter of gentleman I do agree on your means of settling this.

Therefore, I can provide Rman with a range only 5 minutes from my house out to 500 yards and a very good back stop. I can provide my chrono and if mine isn't suitable, then he is welcome to use his. I will also provide my long range Bullseye camera which records each and every shot in consecutive order. He can pick a nice sunny and windless day. He should bring his witnesses, I can also provide a couple more. Video of him shooting and video record on target. If he replicates not only the muzzle velocity of 2100ish FPS stated for 255 gr projectile and somewhat of a similar target to that which was previously provided, I will gladly offer public apology for my doubtfulness.
To me it's not a matter of Quantum Physics, the only real issue here is can you (meaning anyone in general) hit a target a 500 yards offhand. I have killed moose at that distance offhand with my 30-06 and Bausch and Lomb 4200 Rainguard Elite Scope, which I consider an inferior scope.

I look forward to this challenge myself and will participate and produce a video this summer doing same.

As far as pictures go, anyone can fabricate a picture and make all kinds of exaggerated claims (I am not saying that anyone has) but to me I need to see it on film. Even then I'll bet some people with try to dispute it. Just my two cents worth.

PS: With my Huskemaw, I will turn the turret to 500 yards aim and shoot with factory ammo, no charts no calculations, just SKILL!
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  #186  
Old 02-02-2015, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gitrdun View Post
I must disagree edmhunter, charts and ballistic calculations are very meaningful. However, in the spirit of good sportsmanship and matter of gentleman I do agree on your means of settling this.

Therefore, I can provide Rman with a range only 5 minutes from my house out to 500 yards and a very good back stop. I can provide my chrono and if mine isn't suitable, then he is welcome to use his. I will also provide my long range Bullseye camera which records each and every shot in consecutive order. He can pick a nice sunny and windless day. He should bring his witnesses, I can also provide a couple more. Video of him shooting and video record on target. If he replicates not only the muzzle velocity of 2100ish FPS stated for 255 gr projectile and somewhat of a similar target to that which was previously provided, I will gladly offer public apology for my doubtfulness.
If Rman takes this challenge and proves his claims as stated above I will give a full written aplogy and send him a nice single malt scotch.
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  #187  
Old 02-02-2015, 01:14 PM
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I am really enjoying this thread, and learning a lot about ballistics in the process. It is also quite entertaining keeping me checking the thread quite regularly throughout the day. I would also be very interested in joining the "challenge" if it ever happens.

Here is a link that directs you to the Sierra Bullets website and an article that describes the difference between CUP and PSI. There is no conversion factor between the two. This article quite nicely explains how the two different numbers are achieved

https://sierrabullets.wordpress.com/...ers-institute/
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  #188  
Old 02-02-2015, 01:18 PM
albertadeer albertadeer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergerboy View Post
If Rman takes this challenge and proves his claims as stated above I will give a full written aplogy and send him a nice single malt scotch.
Should Mail everyone on AO scotch for all the riff raff
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  #189  
Old 02-02-2015, 01:19 PM
fish_e_o fish_e_o is offline
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Originally Posted by Pudelpointer View Post
is it "over pressure" for the cartridge design? Yes, it very likely is. Is it over pressure for the rifle in question, possibly but obviously not catastrophically.
not... yet. metal fatigue is a funny thing. although he may shoot it many years and be fine it does not mean that there is no potential for damage.

i would be very angry if a friend handed me a rifle and i shot it only later to be told he was deliberately loading over the limit.

different strokes for different folks.
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  #190  
Old 02-02-2015, 01:48 PM
32-40win 32-40win is offline
 
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I tend not to disbelieve that target. It is probably doable. Running a 38-55 to 2100 in a model 94 is probably doable. Definitely working on the edges, but, probably doable. A Soule sight will give ability to sight that far, Pressures are certainly up there a ways, in the very high risk zone, but, it is quite probably possible that it can be done that way.
I've shot 170gr 30cal 311041 PB's @ 1400, that always keyholed at 200, that shot 2" bench groups out there, it doesn't matter how the bullet gets there, as long as it goes the same way every time. 36 clicks up to 300 and they still worked, still hitting paper at that range, wouldn't call it a group, but, it was there, on paper.
The other guys were shooting it as well, some a lot better than I was doing, with similar equipt, which would be a little safer pressurewise than using a 94 in the same scenario as Rman did.
My only question might be, how many shots it actually took to get the required number on target, when shooting offhand. Get a day when the wind is right and you can do no wrong, all the shooting spirits dialed in, it could be done.
I have absolutely no intention of trying it myself, I know I am not capable of it, but, do know of some people who, may have seen this sort of shooting done, may even have tried it themselves.
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  #191  
Old 02-02-2015, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edmhunter View Post
To me it's not a matter of Quantum Physics, the only real issue here is can you (meaning anyone in general) hit a target a 500 yards offhand. I have killed moose at that distance offhand with my 30-06 and Bausch and Lomb 4200 Rainguard Elite Scope, which I consider an inferior scope.

I look forward to this challenge myself and will participate and produce a video this summer doing same.

As far as pictures go, anyone can fabricate a picture and make all kinds of exaggerated claims (I am not saying that anyone has) but to me I need to see it on film. Even then I'll bet some people with try to dispute it. Just my two cents worth.

PS: With my Huskemaw, I will turn the turret to 500 yards aim and shoot with factory ammo, no charts no calculations, just SKILL!
500 yards, zero at 200yrds, shooting 180gr, would you not have to have a hold over of like 6 feet?
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  #192  
Old 02-02-2015, 02:07 PM
Rman Rman is offline
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Originally Posted by norwestalta View Post
No he isn't. but I'm past the point of caring. You bs your friends and I'll bs mine but let's not bs each other.
You asked me a question earlier in this thread:

"In my mind I'd think the more lead sent down range the better your chances of hitting the target. I'm not saying you didn't do it but I'd have to see it to believe it.
Rman, how many shots were taken and were you aided by a spotter?"

I hesitated to answer, as I wanted to see a certain someone to try and replicate what I did. Since it has become painfully obvious that the knowledge is simply not there to do this, I will answer your question directly.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, I spent a lot of time an effort trying to accomplish the challenge. No one picked up on what this meant. One of the first questions that should be asked whenever someone posts up a group of any kind, is how many targets, and how many shots did it take to get the particular group size, target hit etc.

I am more than positive that many here thought I nailed up a target at 500 yards, flung 5 shots at it, and posted the result I achieved. This is simply not the case. I shot at multiple targets, over a period of days.

The target posted happened, in accordance to rules set out in the challange. This means that 5 shots were taken at a single target at a distance of 500 yards. If a target recieved one hole in five shots, it came down, and another target was put up. Some targets had no holes...some had one, some had two, one happened to have three. I could not seem to get to four. That is the target I posted up. All were shot with the rifle pictured, and the the load discussed.

I did this, as I wanted to show what is possible with these challanges, and start a discussion regarding the outcome.

In usual fashion, this did not happen, and a great thread has deteriorated to the point of sillyness.

R.

Last edited by Rman; 02-02-2015 at 02:14 PM.
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  #193  
Old 02-02-2015, 02:09 PM
Rman Rman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gitrdun View Post
I must disagree edmhunter, charts and ballistic calculations are very meaningful. However, in the spirit of good sportsmanship and matter of gentleman I do agree on your means of settling this.

Therefore, I can provide Rman with a range only 5 minutes from my house out to 500 yards and a very good back stop. I can provide my chrono and if mine isn't suitable, then he is welcome to use his. I will also provide my long range Bullseye camera which records each and every shot in consecutive order. He can pick a nice sunny and windless day. He should bring his witnesses, I can also provide a couple more. Video of him shooting and video record on target. If he replicates not only the muzzle velocity of 2100ish FPS stated for 255 gr projectile and somewhat of a similar target to that which was previously provided, I will gladly offer public apology for my doubtfulness.
The typical round up the posse and meet me at the bike rack after school response from you.

Send me your home address, and I'll swing by and pick you up with my crew, and we'll go to my range and shoot...

R.
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  #194  
Old 02-02-2015, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by diamonddave View Post
500 yards, zero at 200yrds, shooting 180gr, would you not have to have a hold over of like 6 feet?
Nope, below are the specs. With my Huskemaw, all I do is turn the turret to 500 yards, aim dead center and shoot, that's why I love it, takes all of the guess work out of it! And that's the way I like it aha, aha I like it aha, aha, that's the way....................... lol

300 WSM

BRAND: Trophy Grade Ammunition | BULLET STYLE: AccuBond
PART #: 60063 | COUNT: 20 | MSRP: $62.30
BULLET WEIGHT: 180 | BBL TWIST RQMT: 1-10"
FOR USE: Deer/Elk/Moose Sized Game | LEAD-FREE: N
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yards / Muzzle Velocity(FPS) Energy(FT-LBS) Drop In Inches(100YD) Zero Drop In Inches(200YD) Zero
MUZ: 2,900 3360 -1.5 -1.5
100: 2716 2947 0 1.6
200: 2539 2576 -3.2 0
300: 2369 2243 -11.8 -7
400: 2206 1944 -26.7 -20.2
500: 2049 1677 -48.6 -40.6 ='s 3.38 Feet
600: 1898 1440 -78.9 -69.2
700: 1756 1232 -118.8 -107.6
800: 1621 1050 -170.1 -157.2
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  #195  
Old 02-02-2015, 02:11 PM
Rman Rman is offline
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Originally Posted by 32-40win View Post
I tend not to disbelieve that target. It is probably doable. Running a 38-55 to 2100 in a model 94 is probably doable. Definitely working on the edges, but, probably doable. A Soule sight will give ability to sight that far, Pressures are certainly up there a ways, in the very high risk zone, but, it is quite probably possible that it can be done that way.
I've shot 170gr 30cal 311041 PB's @ 1400, that always keyholed at 200, that shot 2" bench groups out there, it doesn't matter how the bullet gets there, as long as it goes the same way every time. 36 clicks up to 300 and they still worked, still hitting paper at that range, wouldn't call it a group, but, it was there, on paper.
The other guys were shooting it as well, some a lot better than I was doing, with similar equipt, which would be a little safer pressurewise than using a 94 in the same scenario as Rman did.
My only question might be, how many shots it actually took to get the required number on target, when shooting offhand. Get a day when the wind is right and you can do no wrong, all the shooting spirits dialed in, it could be done.
I have absolutely no intention of trying it myself, I know I am not capable of it, but, do know of some people who, may have seen this sort of shooting done, may even have tried it themselves.
Please see the post above..for the answer to your question.

Thanks.

R.

Last edited by Rman; 02-02-2015 at 02:34 PM.
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  #196  
Old 02-02-2015, 02:12 PM
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i found 38 55 loads that fast on a site called ranchdogs notes i dont know how to link it. i personally dont believe a guy could go out next day and everything happens to be perfect as well as great skill and do this target. however it seems to me why not shoot the bullet this speed its over max by the book for sure but what does that mean till the gun blows up in your face and its probly not overpressure for the brass a 38 55 has a s.d. similar to a 170 gr. 30 cal so it should take the same pressure to drive it down the bore with the same acceleration. obviously it will require more powder and with the different case to bore volume ratio if you run out of case space you may have to use a quicker powder thus upping the pressure but according to the site its doable with the available space in the same powders ie rl7 n120 etc also although the charges are greater than 170 gr 30 cal charges the bore volume is increasing much quicker as the bullet moves down the bore. it doesnt seem politically correct to hotrod the 38 55 but look what people are doing to the 45 70 a cartridge fairly similar scaled up
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  #197  
Old 02-02-2015, 02:16 PM
Pudelpointer Pudelpointer is offline
 
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If you had stated "first target, first 5 rounds, Kentucky windage", I might have scoffed. But..... you didn't say that.


Question: do you think that this challenge is easier with an appropriate peep, or with a (relatively) high magnification scope?
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  #198  
Old 02-02-2015, 02:18 PM
Gifted Intuitive Gifted Intuitive is offline
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Default Confiscation of Purpose

Confiscate the purpose of a gun and the gun is confiscated.

Regulations were imposed on ranges that forced the closure of many shooting sports. Most range administrators knew the intent was to curtail firearms sport and not promote range safety.

Rifle and handgun silhouette were very popular sports and with 1000's of active participants Canada wide. Regulations specific to the death of the Silhouette sport were enforced with stop-now orders.

Threatened with closure, most ranges banned Metallic Silhouette and other shooting sports.
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  #199  
Old 02-02-2015, 02:22 PM
Rman Rman is offline
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Originally Posted by marxman View Post
i found 38 55 loads that fast on a site called ranchdogs notes i dont know how to link it. i personally dont believe a guy could go out next day and everything happens to be perfect as well as great skill and do this target. however it seems to me why not shoot the bullet this speed its over max by the book for sure but what does that mean till the gun blows up in your face and its probly not overpressure for the brass a 38 55 has a s.d. similar to a 170 gr. 30 cal so it should take the same pressure to drive it down the bore with the same acceleration. obviously it will require more powder and with the different case to bore volume ratio if you run out of case space you may have to use a quicker powder thus upping the pressure but according to the site its doable with the available space in the same powders ie rl7 n120 etc also although the charges are greater than 170 gr 30 cal charges the bore volume is increasing much quicker as the bullet moves down the bore. it doesnt seem politically correct to hotrod the 38 55 but look what people are doing to the 45 70 a cartridge fairly similar scaled up
I also mentioned many more than myself are doing this, and you have found one of many sites that supports this. If I felt the load unsafe in my rifle, I would not shoot it.
The action can handle higher pressures than what the book says a 38-55 can handle, again, because loads have to be safe in every rifle that comercially loaded ammo can be chambered in.
Brass is good to significantly higher pressures than what this particular rifle can handle, and I am no where near hitting those pressures.

R.

Last edited by Rman; 02-02-2015 at 02:31 PM.
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  #200  
Old 02-02-2015, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edmhunter View Post
Nope, below are the specs. With my Huskemaw, all I do is turn the turret to 500 yards, aim dead center and shoot, that's why I love it, takes all of the guess work out of it! And that's the way I like it aha, aha I like it aha, aha, that's the way....................... lol

300 WSM

BRAND: Trophy Grade Ammunition | BULLET STYLE: AccuBond
PART #: 60063 | COUNT: 20 | MSRP: $62.30
BULLET WEIGHT: 180 | BBL TWIST RQMT: 1-10"
FOR USE: Deer/Elk/Moose Sized Game | LEAD-FREE: N
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yards / Muzzle Velocity(FPS) Energy(FT-LBS) Drop In Inches(100YD) Zero Drop In Inches(200YD) Zero
MUZ: 2,900 3360 -1.5 -1.5
100: 2716 2947 0 1.6
200: 2539 2576 -3.2 0
300: 2369 2243 -11.8 -7
400: 2206 1944 -26.7 -20.2
500: 2049 1677 -48.6 -40.6 ='s 3.38 Feet
600: 1898 1440 -78.9 -69.2
700: 1756 1232 -118.8 -107.6
800: 1621 1050 -170.1 -157.2
You said with your 30-06 with your b&l 4200 scope in your post I quoted.

Here you are giving stats for a 300wsm and a husky.......

I'm not gonna go digging for the stats but If my memory serves its drop is more like 6 ft.

Your getting confusing??
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  #201  
Old 02-02-2015, 02:29 PM
Rman Rman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pudelpointer View Post
If you had stated "first target, first 5 rounds, Kentucky windage", I might have scoffed. But..... you didn't say that.


Question: do you think that this challenge is easier with an appropriate peep, or with a (relatively) high magnification scope?
I choose the peep given the diameter of the circle allolwed. It made for a great sight picture, with very little frame around the target. Basically, when you see black, you pull the trigger. The rifle has a great trigger, isn't particularliy heavy, and has a good distance between front and rear sights.

I don't think high magnification scopes are the answer for this type of shooting at all, as they often cause a person to second guess thier first, best shot opportunity. A lower power scope, say a four or a six, with a heavy crosshair would be about ideal if using an optic, or a red dot with a large MOA circle.

As to what would be easier? Most likley a low power scope with a heavy crosshair on a moderate recoiling, lighter rifle, with a great trigger.

R.

Last edited by Rman; 02-02-2015 at 02:35 PM.
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  #202  
Old 02-02-2015, 02:31 PM
edmhunter edmhunter is offline
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Originally Posted by diamonddave View Post
You said with your 30-06 with your b&l 4200 scope in your post I quoted.

Here you are giving stats for a 300wsm and a husky.......

I'm not gonna go digging for the stats but If my memory serves its drop is more like 6 ft.

Your getting confusing??
Sorry I was thinking my 300 WSM!

I only shoot 165 grain out of my 30-06 and I was shooting either Winchester of Federal Premiums, not sure which and I have not hunted with that rifle in 4 years. I do not have the specs, but the hold over on the shot was about 4 ft, I am thinking. What I can tell you for sure is that the moose dropped in its tracks, he did manage to get up and traveled about 50 yards and expired.
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  #203  
Old 02-02-2015, 02:34 PM
purgatory.sv purgatory.sv is offline
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Default I do believe

It’s a challenge.

Again read post#1 and post#121

If you have concerns do it in a pm.
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  #204  
Old 02-02-2015, 02:40 PM
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I am going to take a crack at this but there is no way in hell I will post any results here and be subjected to the dog and pony gong show inquisition this thread has turned into. If it takes me all summer to get it done I don't care and will do it wearing a red garter belt with a fish on my head and a coyete thong.

Sheesh
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  #205  
Old 02-02-2015, 02:41 PM
edmhunter edmhunter is offline
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Originally Posted by CritterCommander View Post
I am going to take a crack at this but there is no way in hell I will post any results here and be subjected to the dog and pony gong show inquisition this thread has turned into. If it takes me all summer to get it done I don't care and will do it wearing a red garter belt with a fish on my head and a coyete thong.

Sheesh
No kidding!
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  #206  
Old 02-02-2015, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by CritterCommander View Post
I don't care and will do it wearing a red garter belt with a fish on my head and a coyete thong.
no one say anything! he doesn't know i was joking and this has great potential

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  #207  
Old 02-02-2015, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by diamonddave View Post
500 yards, zero at 200yrds, shooting 180gr, would you not have to have a hold over of like 6 feet?
,
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Last edited by Cowtown guy; 02-02-2015 at 02:52 PM.
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  #208  
Old 02-02-2015, 02:47 PM
CritterCommander CritterCommander is offline
 
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Maybe it should be the 500yard off hand with a Fish on your Head challenge, other accessories such as garter belts and thongs are optional???? Just saying?
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  #209  
Old 02-02-2015, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by CritterCommander View Post
Maybe it should be the 500yard off hand with a Fish on your Head challenge, other accessories such as garter belts and thongs are optional???? Just saying?
but only if the person wearing the garter belt shaves his legs, otherwise its way too nasty!
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  #210  
Old 02-02-2015, 02:50 PM
MooseRiverTrapper MooseRiverTrapper is offline
 
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Wow bergerboy should be ashamed. How emabarassing
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