Okay, so now I'm confused again...

[Brad09]

Hey again everyone, haven't been around in a bit.


Anyway, I was talking to a guy a little while ago about rifles, and asked him what he'd recommend for a first big-game rifle. I mentioned to him that I was looking hard at a Browning A-Bolt in .270 Winchester. He looked at me like I had two heads.

He then proceeded to explain to me that a .270 is inherently made for long-range shooting, due to the very flat trajectory and high muzzle velocity, which made sense to me. He then told me that while a .270 may be a great gun for longer shots on mountain goat or antelope, that for a beginner that has no business shooting that far(which also made sense), and that a .308 was a better bet, not only because it was a better killer overall at shorter ranges, more versatile for larger game, and in the brush it would blow through leaves and branches better than the .270.

So I did some research on the .308. Firstly, and I'm sure that you guys all know this, but I didn't know it was a military sniper round, designated 7.62 x 51mm NATO. Now to me, the new guy, this counts for a lot(except I don't have a desire to shoot an actual person). Then my research took me down the military route, and I found out that the US Marine Corps M40 series sniper rifle is actually a heavily modified Remington 700 chambered for .308, and has been used by military forces for over 40 years. Now, to me, those are pretty impressive credentials, especially since the Remington 700 series was another rifle that I was considering. I actually looked at a 700 SPS Varmint series, chambered in .308, with a 26" barrel, and when I shouldered it, it fit pretty nicely. For a sticker price, brand new, at $600, it seemed pretty reasonable. The thing that threw me off is the "Varmint" designation. Can someone break this down for me, as to what makes a "Varmint" rifle, opposed to something else? The other thing I noticed is that the Varmint version was about 1 or 1 1/2 pounds heavier, I'm assuming due to the longer barrel. So this has thrown the .308 back into consideration for me, although it was always in top contention with the .30-06 and the .270. Anyway, that extra weight doesn't bother me too much(I'm still a young buck). And the customer that I spoke to seemed pretty knowledgeable, and just suggested that a .30-06 or a .308 would be a better bet, until I was a more experienced shooter reaching out to longer ranges. Can I get some advice from you guys? I'm currently digging into some ballistics tables for .308 and .30-06 to compare to my .270 tables. And because I'm sure someone will tell me, I am aware that whatever rounds NATO is using in their snipers are quite a bit different than what I would shoot a deer with. Please offer your thoughts.

[Tony_S]

I'm not a ballistics expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I can tell you this. Ive used a .270 win for over 25 years, and killed MANY deer with it, at varying ranges from 20 yards to 400 yards, and everything inbetween. The deer shot at 20 yards fell over just as dead as the 400.
Put the bullet where it belongs, you'll win every time.
As for shooting through "leaves and branches", I wouldn't consider it with a .270, or any other caliber for that matter...so it's never been an issue.

Tony

[catnthehat]

Any of those calibers will do fine, but of the three , in rifles of the same weight, the '06 will recoil the most.
The 270, using a 130 grain bullet, is a fine cartridge, but Ii like more bullet weight, so my choice is the 308.

It generally runs within 100FPS of the '06, and recoils a bit less.

Both the 30'06 and the 308 have been used as sniper rounds, this is not an issue.
The issue however, for target cartridges is the fact that the 308 recoils a bit less, the '06 can still win with the right person behind it - a 270 can for that matter as well.

As far as "varmint " rifles go, we are talking heavy varmint class rifles, and the weight and barrel length are the big differences, sometimes the stock design.
For a hunting rifle, most guys end up with a firearm weighing between 8 - 10lbs, scoped and ready.
You have selected a good three to go with, so try and shoot them all before deciding .
Stock design and action preference are more important than the than the differences in the three cartridges you have listed, IMHO.

A lever gun is going to be a bit lighter and shorter in the 308 of the bunch, but in a bolt it is not as big a difference.
There are many who swear by all three cartridges, and many who swear by their bolt/lever, pumps or whatever.
I'm a single shot so will not even go there!
Hope this helps a bit.
Oh, and a deer at 150 yards ( a LONG shot for 90% of the deer killed) will not know the difference if nailed by any of the three cartridges you have listed.
All bullets, BTW will deflect, there is no such thing as a "brush busting" cartridge or bullet.
Cat

[378 Wthrby]

Brad,
For a new guy you really know how to get these guys going, good job, lol. I doubt the confusion will leave you regarding best caliber, everyone has different experiences with every caliber and strong opinions run rampant around here, be prepared for the high volume of responses. You just may be more confused after this thread runs it's course.
My vote is for the 270, as I have mentioned before I have hunted with mine for 22 years and have killed deer, moose, black bear and coyotes at all different ranges. I use 150gr core lokt's and haven't taken 2 shots at anything or tracked anything. Bang - flop. As far as I'm concerned that is all that matters when I hunt anything.
Just my 2 cents.

[Copidosoma]

Alot of folks go through alot of effort to try to convince you to think that what they've read/heard/seen is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

You need to stop talking to folks in gun shops and buy a rifle. The .270 will be just fine as will all the rest on your list. Just because a rifle is flat shooting and a good long range contender (the .308 doesn't do too bad at long range either BTW) doesn't mean it won't work up close. It is up to you to limit yourself to what is reasonable. And anyone who tells you that any bullet regardless of diameter will "blow through leaves and branches" is advising you to take some extremely risky (and some would say unethical) shots. It doesn't take much to deflect a bullet in flight and it doesn't take much of a deflection to make a bad shot. If you don't have a clear path, don't take the shot (until you've at least spent some time shooting targets through branches to see how your bullets react).

The .308 "varmint" rifle is sort of a civilian version of a sniper rifle. Certainly would work well for varmints but is a bit overkill. The heavy barrel, fancy bedding and more robust stocks tend to add accuracy (actually, the barrel is more to keep it from heating up quickly). They also add weight. If you plan to huff the thing up a mountain after sheep you may want to avoid varmint rifles. Heck, if you still hunt deer you might want to as well. They work well for some people (sit and wait/"ambush" hunting) and can be fun at the range too. I bought one because I've had a bit of experience with them "in a previous life" and like to put small clusters of holes in paper. Certainly not necessary though. And it is a bit of a pig to lug around (the extra 2" on the barrel adds very little real world performance but seems to add alot to real world snagging on things).

Your ability to place a shot in the vital zone every time (even with a bit of buck fever) is vastly more important than the extremely small differences in "close range killing power" of any of those rounds. Don't buy into the belief that .308 is needed for "larger" game. The 270 will handle moose at reasonable range very nicely.

Be careful of falling into the information trap. You see this in many fields when people are presented with a wide array of choices. They will fuss over details that mean next to nothing in the real world. Think about the types of hunting you are likely to do in the near term, find an appropriate cartridge (any of the three you list are extremely versatile), get a rifle that you like, get a good scope for it, get to the range and learn what it can do and get out there and hunt.

Your poll results contain wisdom although you can't really go too wrong with any of them.

*my version of the truth *

[Okotokian]

Just recently spent a couple days wandering around the thick bush of the OH ranch looking for deer. I'm a big guy, but was glad I wasn't lugging around a heavier, long-barrelled varmint rifle. Snagged my Browning A-bolt .270 (stainless synthetic) enough as it was.

As the fellows here have said much more intelligently than I could, any of the three will do what you want. All have readily available, numerous ammo choices (even at pretty much any canadian tire or walmart in a pinch). None have bad recoil, and with your job it should be pretty easy to hook up with some guys to shoot all three and see. You really won't make a bad choice. See something you like that feels good, buy it. I MIGHT be more inclinded to go with one of the .30's if you planned to do a lot of moose and elk, but how often is that really going to happen (versus antelope, sheep, coyotes, etc.)?And as everyone has said, a .270 will work fine on those too.

So buy something! Then you can agonize over scope selection. (advance suggestion... Leupold VXII 3x9)

[Brad09]

Duly noted, guys.

Anyway, I'm off to do some shooting with a buddy of mine this weekend, and he's got a full arsenal from .243 Winchester to 7mm Remington Magnum, and ten different rifles of different styles for me to check out. Following that, I think I'll have my purchase nailed down, as far as the rifle goes, anyway. But one other thing that I'm curious about is scope mounting hardware. Obviously, they aren't all created equal. The one that I see on a lot of these heavy-duty guns are picatinny rails. Is a rail like this actually feasible to get, to fit a specific rifle? Is there a clear advantage over this compared to a traditional scope base? And for a guy just starting out, with no previous big rifle experience to compare it to, is it worth it? I'd just like to have my scope anchored on there, good and proper.

Brad

[raised by wolves]

The 270 is great all-round cartridge. Long or short range. The 308 is also a great cartridge. I would go with the 270 if most of my hunting is on either open country or along the clearings, cutlines and valleys in the more heavily forested areas. Great calibre for deer, however it has also dropped a fair number of moose, elk and bear.

Nothing truly shoots well through the bush unless we bring in the dangerous game cartridges and only at very close range. Even then, few hunters will try to shoot through brush of any kind. The chances of deflecting the bullet from its path are obviously increased. Shooting through bush is a good indicator that the shooter does not have a clean target, possibly extremely limited visibility, and potential for hitting the wrong animal or something else that should not be shot at.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Brad09

Duly noted, guys.

But one other thing that I'm curious about is scope mounting hardware. Obviously, they aren't all created equal. The one that I see on a lot of these heavy-duty guns are picatinny rails. Is a rail like this actually feasible to get, to fit a specific rifle? Is there a clear advantage over this compared to a traditional scope base? And for a guy just starting out, with no previous big rifle experience to compare it to, is it worth it? I'd just like to have my scope anchored on there, good and proper.

Brad

Leupold , Burris, and Millet (as well as others) all make perfectly suitable bases and rings for scopes.
I wouldn't go with a Picatinny , because it is not needed on a hunting rifle IMO.
Cat

[Swamp_Donkey]

Originally Posted by Brad09

Hey again everyone, haven't been around in a bit.


Anyway, I was talking to a guy a little while ago about rifles, and asked him what he'd recommend for a first big-game rifle. I mentioned to him that I was looking hard at a Browning A-Bolt in .270 Winchester. He looked at me like I had two heads.

He then proceeded to explain to me that a .270 is inherently made for long-range shooting, due to the very flat trajectory and high muzzle velocity, which made sense to me. He then told me that while a .270 may be a great gun for longer shots on mountain goat or antelope, that for a beginner that has no business shooting that far(which also made sense), and that a .308 was a better bet, not only because it was a better killer overall at shorter ranges, more versatile for larger game, and in the brush it would blow through leaves and branches better than the .270.

So I did some research on the .308. Firstly, and I'm sure that you guys all know this, but I didn't know it was a military sniper round, designated 7.62 x 51mm NATO. Now to me, the new guy, this counts for a lot(except I don't have a desire to shoot an actual person). Then my research took me down the military route, and I found out that the US Marine Corps M40 series sniper rifle is actually a heavily modified Remington 700 chambered for .308, and has been used by military forces for over 40 years. Now, to me, those are pretty impressive credentials, especially since the Remington 700 series was another rifle that I was considering. I actually looked at a 700 SPS Varmint series, chambered in .308, with a 26" barrel, and when I shouldered it, it fit pretty nicely. For a sticker price, brand new, at $600, it seemed pretty reasonable. The thing that threw me off is the "Varmint" designation. Can someone break this down for me, as to what makes a "Varmint" rifle, opposed to something else? The other thing I noticed is that the Varmint version was about 1 or 1 1/2 pounds heavier, I'm assuming due to the longer barrel. So this has thrown the .308 back into consideration for me, although it was always in top contention with the .30-06 and the .270. Anyway, that extra weight doesn't bother me too much(I'm still a young buck). And the customer that I spoke to seemed pretty knowledgeable, and just suggested that a .30-06 or a .308 would be a better bet, until I was a more experienced shooter reaching out to longer ranges. Can I get some advice from you guys? I'm currently digging into some ballistics tables for .308 and .30-06 to compare to my .270 tables. And because I'm sure someone will tell me, I am aware that whatever rounds NATO is using in their snipers are quite a bit different than what I would shoot a deer with. Please offer your thoughts.

The 7.62MM is more of a generic round. They were used with many different weapons. I actually use to fire these with the 7.62 FN when I was an Army Cadet.
I've used the 30.06 with success but I'm partial to the .270. Why? because it was my Grandfathers.
I would say your best bet is to see if any of your friends or family own these weapons and get out an try them out for yourself. It's what your comfortable with. Sometimes your not comfortable with the best

[FishBrain]

30.06, thats why I bought it.
Will take down anything Canada has to offer for hunting.
and since I have been using it I feel I made the right choice

[catnthehat]

FWIW, the 308 was designed as a military round first ( as was the '06!) for a general purpose short action cartridge, as an anwser to the the auotloading weapons being developed .Then Winchester hung their moniker on it , and the rest is history!
Cat

[Buckhead]

Originally Posted by Brad09

Hey again everyone, haven't been around in a bit.


Anyway, I was talking to a guy a little while ago about rifles, and asked him what he'd recommend for a first big-game rifle. I mentioned to him that I was looking hard at a Browning A-Bolt in .270 Winchester. He looked at me like I had two heads.

He then proceeded to explain to me that a .270 is inherently made for long-range shooting, due to the very flat trajectory and high muzzle velocity, which made sense to me. He then told me that while a .270 may be a great gun for longer shots on mountain goat or antelope, that for a beginner that has no business shooting that far(which also made sense), and that a .308 was a better bet, not only because it was a better killer overall at shorter ranges, more versatile for larger game, and in the brush it would blow through leaves and branches better than a .270.

The guy you talked to is a total moron. In the field someone of your experience would hardly know the difference. Just buy a good rifle in one of the popular calibers (.270, .308, .30-06) and get to shooting.

And I would NOT buy a varmint rifle as a first rifle. You are doing way too much research and not enough shooting. Make a decision, already.

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by Brad09

and that a .308 was a better bet, not only because it was a better killer overall at shorter ranges, more versatile for larger game, and in the brush it would blow through leaves and branches better than the .270.

.

Brad.
If your so called expert believes that you can shoot through brush with any caliber, he aint no expert.
There have been test after test done, and it boils down to this. Bullet shape and weight play no part in a calibers ability to shoot through brush. All bullets have a spin imparted on them and if they glance off a branch from a partial impact they will deflect because the bullet will go into YAW. Actually short stubby bullets are worse.

Get what ever fits you, and buy it in a sporter configuration.

My offer still stands to let you try a few different rifles.

[twofifty]

Brad09, it's time to stop the research as you have repeatedly found the same answers:

1. any of the three calibers you are studying are ideal at normal hunting distances on big game in Canada, 'cept for maybe grizzly;
2. all are available in any action and rifle style that catches your eye and fits your body type;
3. and all are available at reasonable prices wherever ammo is sold, be it in the city or rural areas.

All of these calibers, properly zeroed, need only be kept steady in the centre of the kill zone as you release the shot, and you will bring home the bacon all the way out to 300yds. Btw, most game is taken at under 150yds...maybe less.

A varmint rifle, even one chambered in .308, is a specialized item suited for sedentary hunting or the target range. Varmint rifle barrels are usually long and heavy, which is a handicap on a big game hunt where your energy is best expended on hiking up and down hills, carrying your pack, gutting, quartering and carrying out your kill to your now distant vehicle. So wasting your energy carrying an extra 2 lbs of rifle is not a good plan.

You are a new hunter, so presumably you have much to learn about hunting which believe it or not has less to do with shooting than with learning the animal's behaviour and preferred habitats at different times of day/year.

[bobinthesky]

You've got to stop listening to gun shop experts and do you're own research regarding these things.
It seems to be more prevalant these days compared to a few years ago, but I've noticed a lot of gun store commando's lately who have never had any practical experience out side of reading guns and ammo magazine, makeing some outragous statements concerning calibers and guns!
I went into a large gun store a few months ago wanting to look at 1911 45 auto's, the clerk looked at me like I had two heads and quickly informed me that the .40 cal S&W was a much better caliber. Better for what I asked? It's a better caliber for anything he said. But I don't want a .40 I said. He say's, but it's way better than the .45 acp... I said, for what? Self defence he says! I said, you mean for killing someone? I have no intention of shooting anyone with this gun says I. He must have been dumbfounded cause he was stuck for an answer, so I added, you know, I must look like an idiot to you because I came in here wanting to look at a specific gun and caliber and you told me it was no good and tried to sell me something else. Why would you do that? He had no answer.
Bottom line is, do your own research before you go into a gun store, these days it seems that they are employing a lot of people that just can't get good paying jobs else where for what ever reason.
Any one of those calibers you mention will work fine for what you're going to do.

[378 Wthrby]

Originally Posted by Brad09

Duly noted, guys.

Anyway, I'm off to do some shooting with a buddy of mine this weekend, and he's got a full arsenal from .243 Winchester to 7mm Remington Magnum, and ten different rifles of different styles for me to check out. Following that, I think I'll have my purchase nailed down, as far as the rifle goes, anyway. But one other thing that I'm curious about is scope mounting hardware. Obviously, they aren't all created equal. The one that I see on a lot of these heavy-duty guns are picatinny rails. Is a rail like this actually feasible to get, to fit a specific rifle? Is there a clear advantage over this compared to a traditional scope base? And for a guy just starting out, with no previous big rifle experience to compare it to, is it worth it? I'd just like to have my scope anchored on there, good and proper.

Brad

Brad,
For a new guy you must be getting coached on the right questions to ask to optimize your thread responses. With that being said by a rifle put a scope on it and shoot the hell out of it. Have some fun hunting and quit worrying about every little thing. Whatever you are looking at won't break the bank and if you don't quite like what you purchase, Sell it and buy something else.
Bottom line go shoot and kill something, I haven't met an animal yet that was mad at anything I killed it with.
Just my 2 cents

[Pathfinder76]

This

http://www.remington.com/products/fi..._Stainless.asp

Plus this

http://www.mcmfamily.com/mcmillan-st...ubnav=branch2d

This

http://www.talleyrings.com/lightweight.php

And this

http://www.leupold.com/hunting-and-s...i-3-5-10x40mm/

Will put you further ahead than almost every tool you've spoken with at the sporting goods section at Canadian Tire over the last six months. Not saying much, but a good start none the less. It's that simple.

[Selkirk]

Brad ... here are some suggested steps to follow:

Step #1 :
You are suffering from 'information-overload' ... put the magnifying glass away. This subject has been pretty much beat to death. It's time to move on to step #2 ...

Step #2 :
Take advantage of the many opportunities you have been offered ... get out to the range and try out as many rifles as you can. To keep it simple, so you don't get lost in the 'forest' of cartridge types available, I would try to limit yourself to your orginal three choices (.270, .308, .30-06).

Step #3 :
Report back to us (include photos if possible ) and let us know your results and what rifles & scopes you liked.

We'll wait to hear back.

Cheers

Dean

[springfisher]

well done trigger finger, Brad buy the one that fits best and learn how to use it ,that is the largest factor here. i will almost take anything with my .243 as i spend lot and lots of time with it. i know where that little bullet is going!

[GMC]

Brad, pick whatever rifle @ cal. you like. Not someone else's preference. If you use it on Varmint's, call it a varmint rifle, if you use it on Big Game, call it a big game rifle. As far as best cal. ( who knows ? ) I like 308, just because. And don't think it won't take a GRIZZ. it's been done, trust me. Any way enough ramble, Happy Shooting @ Hunting. Gerry.

[Brad09]

Okay, once again I can see this thread going downhill, and my apologies for everyone that's getting tired of me posting similar questions. Anyway, I'm pretty well sold on something in a .270, as I actually got a chance to go out and a Tikka in .270, and shortly after, a Browning in .30-06. Maybe it was a difference in the gun, but I definitely felt the .30-06 a little more. Anyway, I'm now counting my pennies for a Remington 700 SPS in .270 Winchester, a Leupold VX-III 2.5-8x36, Leupold mounting hardware, a pair of Nikon Monarchs, and a camo coat so I can look cool in the bush.

Anyway, one comment caught me in particular. For twofifty, I can assure you, I'm doing a ton of reading on different deer habits and methods of finding and tracking them. I'd like to go out and see how I do, but because I work in retail and it's Christmas time, that's impossible, and I'd hate to go out searching for deer and inadvertently ruin someone's hunting because the wind shifts and scares a big buck or something(I'd also like to minimize my chances of getting shot.). But I do appreciate the advice. One question in regards to this, however. Is there some good books that anyone can recommend(I prefer paper to websites)? Or am I better off scrapping the paper route and actually tracking deer, to see how they behave more specifically in this area?

For those interested in chastising me for my questions, please don't bother posting. While I welcome assistance from the willing, I don't want to waste anyone's time for those that aren't interested in giving some advice but feel obligated to because they entered the thread. Thanks, guys.

Brad

[Vindalbakken]

I didn't read all the posts, but try this. Stand in front of the mirror and say "I shoot a 270". Repeat for the 308 and the 30-06. Repeat as many times as required to determine which one makes you look and feel better.

Really, there isn't enough difference between the three of them to matter to any animal you choose to shoot.

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by Brad09

Anyway, I'm now counting my pennies for a Remington 700 SPS in .270 Winchester, a Leupold VX-III 2.5-8x36, Leupold mounting hardware, a pair of Nikon Monarchs, and a camo coat so I can look cool in the bush.
Brad

Hey Brad,

Was talking to Dave Henry (a well respected gunsmith in Bentley) about doing a little tweaking to my sons new 700. He asked if it has the new trigger system from Remington (X 10???) as it is not as adjustable and in his experience a backwards step from the old.

Thankfully I don't have the new type, but it might be something you watch for when shopping. The Remingtons used to be pretty crisp right out of the box, but the one I have absolutely sucked.

I looked on line and they set them very stiff to protect themselves from law suites due to acidental discharge.

Good luck,
MK

[Mike_W]

Hey Brad what it truley boils down to is what caliber of bullet would best suit your hunting situation I would scrap the 308 first and formost ..not because its a bad caliber but never use the "first hunting rifle so its good enough" attitude. For the record my grandfather shot a bull moose this year at 325 yards with a 180 grain out of his 308 and it was a complete pass through.

What you need to consider is bullet, a 270 win or wsm (which is what I would suggest) has a bullet with a diameter .277" well a 30-06 or 308 have a .308" diameter bullet. What this results in is a longer 150 grain bullet with a 270 or a shorter 150 grain bullet whit a 308 or 30-06 therefore when considering case size with a 270 having a longer bullet you will be limitited to the weight of lead that you can shoot out of a 270 more so than with a 30-06. For example a 270 will max out @ 150 grain bullet where a 30-06 will max out @ 220 grain bullet

What does a heavier bullet mean? two things heavier mean less muzzle velocity but more ft/lb of energy. So there is a fine line between enough muzzle velocity and enough ft/lb energey because they are directly related.

Like my first suggestion I would not consider the 308, I would consider the 30-06 and the 270 but most off the 270 WSM, A 150 grain bullet out of a 270 would kill anything with ease in alberta and same for the 30-06 (they are the same case just different neck size). The 270 will be flatter shooting due to ballistic coefficent but then thats just going to deep.

Let's make this easy get the 270 WSM and don't look back!!!

[Vindalbakken]

270 WSM? Now you have moved out of the possibilities of "starter" cartridge. One parameter for a starter is readily available and inexpensive ammunition.

[Mike_W]

Well if a guy can't flippin figure out to buy enough ammunition before the hunting season starts well whatever. And what says a starter round has to be cheap not even $10 a box difference between 270 win and 270 WSM.

Why does a stsrter rifle not have to be the right cartrige to last for many hunting years.

Not saying that a 270 won't do it but a 270 WSM is a much supperior cartrige.

Cheers,

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by Mike_W

Well if a guy can't flippin figure out to buy enough ammunition before the hunting season starts well whatever. And what says a starter round has to be cheap not even $10 a box difference between 270 win and 270 WSM.

Why does a stsrter rifle not have to be the right cartrige to last for many hunting years.

Not saying that a 270 won't do it but a 270 WSM is a much supperior cartrige.

Cheers,

Here's my inexperienced take on it... in what realm is a.270 WSM "much superior" to a vanilla .270? At 100 yards on a deer? doubtful. At 400 yards? Perhaps, but that shot takes it out of the realm of "starter" for a newbie (and I suspect out of the realm of most hunters). And given that the dictum here seems to be "practice, practice, practice, and then practice some more", an additional $10 a box can add up. I'm just sayin'

[pogo]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

I didn't read all the posts, but try this. Stand in front of the mirror and say "I shoot a 270". Repeat for the 308 and the 30-06. Repeat as many times as required to determine which one makes you look and feel better.

Good one!

[honda450]

The 3006 is a great caliber. The 308 is a great caliber. The 270 is a great caliber. Among others.