shooting downhill advice?

[marlin1]

well since this thread is still going I want to ask a stupid question. When you are refering to minutes of angle , is that the same as one click on my scope . Some targets are on a grid and the way i understand it one grid is one click

[Cappy]

Check your scope dials to see what they say. Most are 1/4" at 100 yards so one click equals 1/4 minute of angle. Some are different though, you could have 1/8, 1/2 or even a full minute per click. Or you could have a scope in milradens, which is another form of measure.

[Solothurn]

Originally Posted by twofifty

to while away a few hours. I see some movers left of the jeep trail.

297.5 inches hold over at 1000 for your 308, that's when zeroed at ?

Zero at 100 yards. To be on at 1000 I need to turn the elevation knob on my scope up 29.75 MOA, which equals 297.5 inches,
The mooovers make great targets but are costly to shoot

[twofifty]

My go-to play rifle these days is a SB sil rifle, which makes for lots of cheap but very useful fun out to 200yds. Dialing in at C-P-T-R ranges helped me realize there are as many good elevation zeroes in a rifle as there are graduations on the turret. That too helps bring shape to the trajectory's slope.

As an aside, seems most folk say not to use a target turret while hunting big game....justifying this on the basis that turret scopes are vulnerable to damage. Maybe so - and yes MPBR also does the job - but with a laser one then has the capability to dial the crosshairs to pretty well where the bullet will meet the fur.

Anybody here hunt big game with target type scope turrets?
How's that working out for you?

[marlin1]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Check your scope dials to see what they say. Most are 1/4" at 100 yards so one click equals 1/4 minute of angle. Some are different though, you could have 1/8, 1/2 or even a full minute per click. Or you could have a scope in milradens, which is another form of measure.

my scope does not say anything about graduations. Its an old weaver scope

[BC7stw]

Usually most scopes are 1 click to a 1/4" a 100 yards. I always use 3 clicks to an inch at this range with most scopes and find it is fairly consistant.

[Solothurn]

Originally Posted by twofifty

Anybody here hunt big game with target type scope turrets?
How's that working out for you?

Just fine, I would not consider a scope without target turrets, but then again I don't shoot anything at close range.

[marlin1]

that looks like a 50 cal bullet .

[Solothurn]

Originally Posted by marlin1

that looks like a 50 cal bullet .

The cartridge my buddy is holding in the deer photo is a 50 cal round

[marlin1]

how far was the shot on that buck and was that the caliber used? I think the sniper rifle 50 cal has a range of over a mile. correct me if i'm wrong. I was watching video of Canadian snipers taking out taliban at these distances

[twofifty]

Well ATR, it seems like target turrets have worked out for you - you're still around to tell the stories. Got lucky I guess. ;-)

Marlin1 (since you are new to the subject matter and genuinely interested in knowing the proper terms) it is best to refer to unfired ammunition as a cartridge, which is an unfired bullet-powder-case-primer assembly.


Are there not even turret index marks on that old Weaver of yours?

With an older unit like that might I suggest you learn the tried and true MPBR (Maximum Point Blank Range) zero technique, rather than 'clicking up' reticle setting for longer shots.

First, look up your hunting cartridge's theoretical flight ballistics on a ballistics calculator, then get some real-life numbers at the range. You see, somewhere along the bullet's flight lies an optimum reticle zero point, which with more practice will allow you to hold the reticle point blank (i.e. directly) onto the game's vital zone and place decisive ethical shots - at ranges that are within your and the bullet's performance envelope.

MPBR is the maximum range beyond which gravity will pull that bullet's flight outside the kill zone, thereby missing or crippling your quarry. Within the MPBR the bullet flies in such a narrow vertical path that whether the animal is close or further away from you, just aim and fire. On the longish shots (+175yds), best to laze the exact distance so you don't inadvertently take a shot outside the MPBR. Also be a good idea to find out the bullet's path in the early stages of flight - you can miss by being too close.

And don't forget the wind's effect on windage... Durn it, there's another funky term. ;-)

[Solothurn]

Originally Posted by marlin1

how far was the shot on that buck and was that the caliber used? I think the sniper rifle 50 cal has a range of over a mile. correct me if i'm wrong. I was watching video of Canadian snipers taking out taliban at these distances

Yes that deer was shot with a 50 cal rifle, and at what I consider pretty close range for a 50 just under 800 yards.
1 mile with a 50 is not a big deal, but then agian I don't think 1000 yards is a big deal with my 308.

Twofifty
The target type turrets that I run on my rifles are exactly the same as many police depts and almost all military sniper units around the world use.
They are in most cases MORE structural than any other turret. The Tactical, not target turrets are what I am referring to.
The scopes I use are either Nightforce or Mk4s

[marlin1]

yes there is graduation markings just no scale. I realized my mistake about calling it a bullet too late . I am at work and rushed at times . It looks like I have lots to learn about ballistics and shooting but I am definately interested in becoming better and more informed .My old gun has served me well but it may be time to invest in a new set-up . Tomorrow I hit 132 to fill my doe tag .This will be my first time hunting the open country for deer , hopefully I'll use what I've learned and make it count .Thanks again for everones tips and advice . anybody know how much for a pair of binocs with a built in range finder. Read a good article in western sportsmen about long range shooting and he mentioned leica binocs. I know this is an Alberta outdoorsmen site , but I read that too. I checked again it was a Canadian sniper named Rob Furlong and the distance was 2430 metres. very impressive shooting tactical rifle ,you really live up to your quote.

[marlin1]

gotta ask what are target turrets? in my last post I was refering to "the longest sniper kills" video on you tube from Afghanistan

[Solothurn]

Originally Posted by marlin1

gotta ask what are target turrets? in my last post I was refering to "the longest sniper kills" video on you tube from Afghanistan

Turrets like this,


that are precisely calibrated to give you exactly the same amount of elevation per click every time. Using these types of turrets , you zero at 100 yards then dial up the turret until you can zero at 200 and 300 and so on, recording the number of clicks ( most turrets are usually in 1/4 moa increments, 4 clicks to the minute of angle or MOA), then you can go up or down in yardage adjustment for any known range knowing that your reticle is zeroed for that distance.
There are factors that will change your trajectory from day to day, but the settings on the turrets get you very close, much closer to exact bullet hits than just holding over and hoping.

[twofifty]

marlin1 -if I may sorta tag along on your thread- I too love to learn about this stuff...and your thread has drawn ATR into the open, so to speak. :-)

ATR, for hitting steel at distances unknown and varying from 200 to 1000, what reticle options do you consider to be most advantageous - from an intuitive point of view, i.e. that allow one to use the reticle to 'measure' the target's height/width AND the fall of shot relative to the point of aim.

In other words, if I want a scope to help me determine by how much the last round has missed, and to help me adjust my elevation/windage hold accordingly, or help me dial in the correction, which reticle system(s) are easy and intuitive in use (no complicated multiplications).

What about First Focal Plane and Second Focal Plane reticles ...
Mils, Radians (sp?), MOA ...

Reason I am asking is that inches is something that I understand readily but I find making a correction in inches is not practical beyond 300 yards if I don't know the target's actual dimensions - and certainly not with my duplex reticle.

[Solothurn]

Originally Posted by twofifty

marlin1 -if I may sorta tag along on your thread- I too love to learn about this stuff...and your thread has drawn ATR into the open, so to speak. :-)

ATR, for hitting steel at distances unknown and varying from 200 to 1000, what reticle options do you consider to be most advantageous - from an intuitive point of view, i.e. that allow one to use the reticle to 'measure' the target's height/width AND the fall of shot relative to the point of aim.

In other words, if I want a scope to help me determine by how much the last round has missed, and to help me adjust my elevation/windage hold accordingly, or help me dial in the correction, which reticle system(s) are easy and intuitive in use (no complicated multiplications).

What about First Focal Plane and Second Focal Plane reticles ...
Mils, Radians (sp?), MOA ...

Reason I am asking is that inches is something that I understand readily but I find making a correction in inches is not practical beyond 300 yards if I don't know the target's actual dimensions - and certainly not with my duplex reticle.

You are in the same boat as I am, I understand inches, they mean something to me. To have a reticle and turrets that are in the same measurement also is something that to me makes sense.
The milradian system (mildot or variants like TMR and MLR) was based on a 36" target area at 1000 yards, which 40 plus years ago was a decent way for soldiers to guesstimate range, why the scope makers at the time stayed with 1/4 moa turret adjustments eludes yet today. It is impossible to get 100% precise adjustments, even with gizmos like the Mildot-master, which is a sliderule like device to help relieve the brainstrain mathematically challenged types like me from pondering to long on an adjustment.

Recently Nightforce and US Optics came out with MOA reticles and matching moa turrets so no major math was required to make corrections.
Understanding that 1moa is 1" at 100 yards and gets larger expotentially is the key. 1 moa is 2" at 200 yards and 1 moa is 3" at 300 yards, to adjust in 1/4 moa increments only requires either knowing the distance, or knowing the size of the target.
Most of my own scopes are Nightforce equipped with what Nightforce calls an R1 reticle, which is a conventional crosshair type but with 1 moa secondary markings on the verticle line and 2 moa secondary markings on the horizontal.
I find this system very easy to work with both for ranging and for corrections.

FFP scopes in theory make sense as you can range at any power, on the NF scopes I use you must use a given power to range on.
The thing I don't like about FFP scopes is that the reticle is quite small and I find hard to see at low power and becomes huge and overpowering to look through at high power. The reticle gets larger as the magnification is increased.

For those who find the milradian system to their liking some of the makers, like NF and S&B make milrad reticle scopes with 1/10 mil turrets so at least the scope is all in the same unit of measure.

This is looking through my scope at a gopher just under 100 yards

Pretty easy to tell how tall he is, count the 1 moa lines, if this was a deer, common practice is that they are 18" from top of back to bottom of chest.

On the top right corner of the plywood is a sparrow, distance is 700 yards, I had to correct slightly from the shot I made before he tried to fly off with my target, but knowing I was .5 moa right on the previous shot was able to correct and stop the theif.




Sparrows beware I am territorial about my target boards



Very territorial!! LOL


Hope that helps some.

[marlin1]

thanks again for the good info . I managed to fill my tag first day out , now its back the bush for my whitetail . My buddy measured out the distance of my original miss downhill and says it was 300 yards . The shots offered in the open country are definately longer but this time I made it count and restored myself a bit. I noticed tactical said he used a 308 in one of his posts . The guy I was hunting with uses this caliber and I was wondering what is good about this caliber for longer range shooting ? The cartridge is quite a bit smaller than my 270 cartridge yet this gun also shoots well at long range

[Solothurn]

Originally Posted by marlin1

thanks again for the good info . I managed to fill my tag first day out , now its back the bush for my whitetail . My buddy measured out the distance of my original miss downhill and says it was 300 yards . The shots offered in the open country are definately longer but this time I made it count and restored myself a bit. I noticed tactical said he used a 308 in one of his posts . The guy I was hunting with uses this caliber and I was wondering what is good about this caliber for longer range shooting ? The cartridge is quite a bit smaller than my 270 cartridge yet this gun also shoots well at long range

Both the 308 and 270 are capable of killing shots at 700 yards, after that they tend to lack sufficient killing power as the bullet has slowed down tremendously , and has lost most of its energy.
At the distances you speak of (300 yards) 1 is just as effective as the other.

I shoot long range with a 308, by long range out to 1500 yards, but would never consider killing an animal with a 308 past about 700 for the reasons stated earlier. 308 is used for alot of 1000 yard shooting for a few reasons, low recoil, heavier bullets than 270, which allow for a more predictable trajectory, and match grade components abound. 270 is pretty much a hunting caliber, it was designed with the intent of being slightly less recoiling than 30-06 with the idea of using lighter bullets at a slightly higher velocity than 30-06, giving the average hunter less concern about trajectory out to 300 yards or so. The trade off with light bullets is that they loose forward speed and energy faster than heavier bullets do of the same type, so effective range is reduced accordingly.
308 was designed to replace 30-06 for use in machineguns, the shorter casing means less travel of the bolt, increasing cyclic rate. The gun powder used in early 1900s has been improved upon tremendously since the 06 was introduced. Winchester with help from some of the US armories developed the 308 to have very nearly the same power as the 06 but in a shorter casing, allowing the more manuverable MGs to function , GIs to carry more ammo etc.
The spill over was that the bolt action (sniper type) rifles also followed suit, thereby requiring the availability of higher than hunting quality ammo.
Like most military and police work, soon after, came the sport shooting games. Tactical style rifle shooting, IPSC and IDPA handgun shooting are examples of this.
With good quality surplus brass and ammo being available shortly after the Korean and Vietnam wars, 308 gained popularity as ammo was cheap, and of good quality, several long range games were organized, that pretty much dictated the use of a military caliber in the rules, 308 was a no brainer, due to the low recoil, the American perpensity for 30 cal, rather than a metric caliber, and LC brass was abundent. The more any caliber is exploited the better the manufacturers respond with better quality components, so in calibers like 308, true matchgrade brass and reloading components become more available. The same thing has held true for 223, another military designed caliber that has spun off into high usage, but for slightly different reasons.

[marlin1]

My buddy's dad is a vet so thats where the 308 recomendation comes from.Now the smaller casing makes sense to me . Think I'll try both calibers on the range before I decide which one suits me best .270 has been real good at dropping game ,but with his lever action 308 and the quick shooting required sometimes on the prairie the 308 shines.

[marlin1]

Im stilll trying to figure out how that sparrow wasn't vaporized . also the flutes on your rifle , what purpose do they serve ? I have never seen those

[Solothurn]

Originally Posted by marlin1

Im stilll trying to figure out how that sparrow wasn't vaporized . also the flutes on your rifle , what purpose do they serve ? I have never seen those

Nicked the sparows neck only, and he had no where near enough mass it open up the 300 gr bullet I shot him with.
The flutes are only on the bolt, and I wish to God they were NOT there.
I ordered that custom action from Nesika with a non fluted bolt, they screwed up the order, but it is FAR too much hassle to ship it back for them to get it right.
In my opinion fluting any gun part is the stupidest thing going. It serves absolutely no purpose in any way shape or form, other than to make the manufacturer additional income.
The flutes in the bolt attract dirt and junk, makes the bolt rougher going in and out of the action and can grab stuff like palms or gillie blankets when being cycled.
Fluting a barrel is also a stupid thing and again serves no real purpose, but that is another discussion.

[catnthehat]

X2 on flutes.
Flutes on rifles serve the same purpose as fender skirts and false ram air hoods IMHO - but yup they are cool looking!!

[slingshot]

Lets see you do it again

[Solothurn]

Originally Posted by slingshot

Lets see you do it again

My PH in Africa said the same thing about my shooting Gunea foul with a rifle, both on the ground and on the wing, granted they are bigger and fly far slower than sparrows, but are just as much fun.




That is NO 12ga, I shot them, along with many more using the wimpy 300 win mag, probably under gunned, but it was what I had with me.

This is a badger who was trespassing, if you look closely there are 2 trucks in the photo, 1 on the hill is where the shot was taken from, the other we drove down to see how bad a 300 gr SMK damages a badger pelt. Distance was about 700 yards and he was on the run, 5 others witnessed this shot.
The neat part was flinging him up in the air about 20 feet. Never figured badgers were that aerodynamic.

[rustynailz]

ATR,

Incredible.

I'm a new shooter and recently purchased my first rifle - a .30-06 Tikka with a 2.5-8 power VXIII.

What resources and practice would you suggest for new shooters to become proficient? Are there any books or videos you'd recommend?

[marlin1]

Originally Posted by Alberta Tactical Rifle

Nicked the sparows neck only, and he had no where near enough mass it open up the 300 gr bullet I shot him with.
The flutes are only on the bolt, and I wish to God they were NOT there.
I ordered that custom action from Nesika with a non fluted bolt, they screwed up the order, but it is FAR too much hassle to ship it back for them to get it right.
In my opinion fluting any gun part is the stupidest thing going. It serves absolutely no purpose in any way shape or form, other than to make the manufacturer additional income.
The flutes in the bolt attract dirt and junk, makes the bolt rougher going in and out of the action and can grab stuff like palms or gillie blankets when being cycled.
Fluting a barrel is also a stupid thing and again serves no real purpose, but that is another discussion.

3oo grain? that must be the 50 cal what type of cartridge would sniper use in Afghanistan ?The guys in the video I watched were blown to pieces it seemed

[Solothurn]

Rusty A decent 22 rifle and lots of ammo is the best teacher. John Plasters book, Ultimate Sniper has some useful information on form, breathing and positions, I am sure there are other classics as well that are less non politically correct.
I started out 45 years ago with a CZ model 1 22LR cal bolt rifle shooting clay birds propped up against a log on the ground at about 50 yards, when that got easy I backed up to 75 then 100 then 125 then 150 out to finally 250 yards, it took a couple of years to get proficient at 250, but after that was mastered, went with smaller tagets and repeated the exercise, another year of shooting passed, then smaller targets yet. The I got a job picking up golf balls, I was 9 then , lots of them were sliced up, I took hot glue and glued string to them hanging them on a fence wire and practiced shooting them when it was a bit windy, eventually talked my sister into throwing up cans into the air for me to shoot, my Dad freaked for some reason when he found out, as she was ahead of me, just like I had read Ad Topperwein had his throwers stand in the early 1900s, he built me a can thrower that used compressed air to send beer cans downrange so I could still shoot moving targets with my 22 without the possibility of braining my sister.
I bought my 1st center fire rifle in 1962, a K98 in 8x57, surplus ammo was real cheap then, and just continued to back up and challenge myself with moving targets. I found cutting cardboard discs and screwing the cardboard to old tires and rolling them down a hill was challenging as the tires would bounce and wobble as they went into the ravine. lugging them back uphill sucked!

The whole point here is start small and close, work your way out as your skill improves, do not worry about what others are doing, challenge yourself, only compete with yourself is what I was trained to do, the "zone" is all that matters when you are on the trigger.
A 22 LR is cheap to shoot, so you can shoot lots, trigger time is the best teacher, I find shooting paper boreing, so be creative to a degree, reactive targets are self gratifying.
I shoot gophers , have for years with my hunting rifles, I believe if I can consistantly hit gophers at several hundred yards then big game will be a no brainer, to a degree. Big game at real long range requires not taking the shot MORE often that taking it, unless you have perfect conditions, ethics says do not shoot.

Your Tikka is a great hunting rifle, the 06 a very accurate caliber, spend some time learning the muscle memory and breathing control with a 22, then switch it up to the 06, just be careful not to get your barrel too hot, it is easy to do when practicing alot.




Marlin I shoot 300 gr Matchking bullets from a 338 Lapua Ackley Improved.
About the lightest common 50 cal projectile is 647 grains.
If you saw some of the same videos I have seen floating around on the net, most are BS, I have shot alot of stuff with a 50 over the years and unless you are shooting some sort of "explosive on contact" projectile all you create are nasty wounds. Having seen 1st hand and used 50s in action, as well as having hunted with 1 for years, blowing a body apart is "uncommon" to say the least, I saw an arm torn off from a hit in the shoulder with a 50, which stands to reason.
I know that many of the snipers in Afghanistan are using 308s, 338 Lapuas as well as a few 50s, how many of what and exactly by who I don't know.

[rustynailz]

Thank you!

[marlin1]

thanks again for all the information Tactical . I have one more question , well for now anyways ,before I let this thread die off . I want to restock an old enfield from my Dad , any reccomendation where to take it? you are a wealth of knowledge that I'll probally refer back to from time to time hopefully , thanks again