Rem mod 700 safety on, or off to unload ?

TBark · #1 12-01-2008, 02:11 PM

My BDL 700 7mm is about 20 years old now. The wife's Rem 7mm-08 is new.
I noticed she can unload without taking the safety off, unlike mine where I have to take the safety off when I unload the shell.
Not sure if this was changed for safe practice by Remington or not,
but I thought this was a good idea not to have to remove the safety.
Well after a morning walk this season, the wife had her rifle slung over her shoulder, barrel up, and back at camp I noticed her bolt was back and the shell missing. She had caught a branch or something and the bolt fell back.
Not sure if I preferr her style or mine now.

TBark

Outcast · #2 12-01-2008, 02:34 PM

All Remingtons have been like this for a while. My old 270 locks the bolt so you have to unload with the safety off. I think and I'm not sure bot you might be able to get an aftermarket 3 position safety that would allow you to do both.

Definately safe to unload with the new version but not field friendly.

The other scenerio you have to worry about in the field is having your bolt slightyly open when you go to shoot. Take the safety off...calm yourself from the buck fever.....breath and squeeze....nothing happens.......what the heck.....unchamber the round chamber another......big buck is gone from the racket and your cursing.....

OutwardBound · #3 12-01-2008, 02:56 PM

My Thopmson Centre Icon, (new this year) has a safety + a bolt lock. I can load / unload with the safety on, and once the gun is loaded you just flip the bolt lock back, and the it will not come open. When you are ready to shoot, you flip the safety off, it disengages the bolt lock at the same time, to allow the bolt to cycle after you shoot. I like it alot, very nice feature.

Danni's Tikka T3 is like your Remington, have to take the safety off to load/ unload.

Dustin

rottie · #4 12-01-2008, 03:47 PM

I have a older Rem 700,it to had to have the safety off to work the bolt. Dave Henry in Bently altered the factory safety so that the bolt will now open when the safety is on,this feature I prefer as the rifle is a blind mag and each shell has to be worked through the action
call Dave at 748 3030 he can help if needed

Ian

Dick284 · #5 12-01-2008, 05:17 PM

I some how wonder how all those early made 700ADL's got unloaded with nary and accidental discharge for oh so many years.

You do know that you do not have to fully put the bolt into full battery to remove the rounds from the magazine don't you?

You also realize that a mechanical safety in no way should replace proper firearm handling, and functioning.

After all to rely souly on something such as a mechanical safety is asking for a great big suprise one day. That is not to say that a mechanical safety is not an integral part of proper firearm handling and safety, but that it is only a very small component of which comprises the whole picture.

Sort of reminds me of the scene from Blackhawk Down in the mess hall where the Officer is dressing down the Delta Force trooper about not having his safety applied on his weapon. When asked how he maintains his weapon as safe the trooper simply held up his index finger and flexed it.(meaning dont put your finger on the trigger if you dont intend to shoot)

I have had 700's of both the lock on safe and operate on safe features.

Neither was a problem or an advantage for me.

On the other hand I've seen fellows botch shots on game because of the operate while safety on feature.

Kinda makes you go hmm don't it.

MK2750 · #6 12-01-2008, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dick284

I some how wonder how all those early made 700ADL's got unloaded with nary and accidental discharge for oh so many years.

You do know that you do not have to fully put the bolt into full battery to remove the rounds from the magazine don't you?

You also realize that a mechanical safety in no way should replace proper firearm handling, and functioning.

After all to rely souly on something such as a mechanical safety is asking for a great big suprise one day. That is not to say that a mechanical safety is not an integral part of proper firearm handling and safety, but that it is only a very small component of which comprises the whole picture.

Sort of reminds me of the scene from Blackhawk Down in the mess hall where the Officer is dressing down the Delta Force trooper about not having his safety applied on his weapon. When asked how he maintains his weapon as safe the trooper simply held up his index finger and flexed it.(meaning dont put your finger on the trigger if you dont intend to shoot)

I have had 700's of both the lock on safe and operate on safe features.

Neither was a problem or an advantage for me.

On the other hand I've seen fellows botch shots on game because of the operate while safety on feature.

Kinda makes you go hmm don't it.

Hey Dick,

My son's new 700 can be unloaded with the saftey on. Is there even a slight possibility of this thing firing with the bolt not fully down? I was concerned when I noticed the saftey didn't lock the bolt down.

It also has this J lock feature that some folks are removing-any thought on the reasoning for this?

Appreciate your feed back,
MK

Dick284 · #7 12-01-2008, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MK2750

Hey Dick,

My son's new 700 can be unloaded with the saftey on. Is there even a slight possibility of this thing firing with the bolt not fully down? I was concerned when I noticed the saftey didn't lock the bolt down.

It also has this J lock feature that some folks are removing-any thought on the reasoning for this?

Appreciate your feed back,
MK

The J-Lock was a big mistake on Remington's part, heck they quite it about 2 or 3 years later.
It increased lock time, and some rifles actually had them able to half engage without the stupid key. Acted as if you had a broken firing pin, (pull the trigger, and click but no bang)

You dont have to shove the round right into the chamber, just nudge it forward with the bolt till it comes out of the mag lips, then open the bolt back up tip and shake. Follow this till she's empty.

Here I made a short vid, of course I pooched the last round, but heck I'm only human (I think).

MK2750 · #8 12-01-2008, 06:23 PM

Thanks Dick,

I'm going to have Dave Henry do some trigger work right away. I'll see if the J lock can be removed or disabled for good.

Take care,
MK

twofifty · #9 12-01-2008, 06:26 PM

Good questions.

I just dry fired my 1970s era M700 with the bolt barely turned down, and the sear does release the firing pin. An AD under those conditions would mean full chamber pressures against barely engaged bolt lugs. Outcast you should try this out on your own 700, and report back.

Another good reason to keep our finger(s) away from the immediate trigger area.

Outcast · #10 12-02-2008, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twofifty

Good questions.

I just dry fired my 1970s era M700 with the bolt barely turned down, and the sear does release the firing pin. An AD under those conditions would mean full chamber pressures against barely engaged bolt lugs. Outcast you should try this out on your own 700, and report back.

Another good reason to keep our finger(s) away from the immediate trigger area.

I'll try it out tonight and let you know. Ihave seen it not being able to fire if the bolt is not fully engaged but I have not tried it in different stages of "disengaged". Never the less I am extremely aware of my safety and bolt position and am always checking in the field even if I don't know I'm doing it. Its just become habit over the years.

twofifty · #11 12-02-2008, 11:35 AM

Good habits -muscle memory- is what prevents ADs, even when we are tired or distracted. Looking forward to your test results.

Dick284 · #12 12-02-2008, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twofifty

Good questions.

I just dry fired my 1970s era M700 with the bolt barely turned down, and the sear does release the firing pin. An AD under those conditions would mean full chamber pressures against barely engaged bolt lugs. Outcast you should try this out on your own 700, and report back.

Another good reason to keep our finger(s) away from the immediate trigger area.

If your turning the bolt even a bit your going too far forward with the bolt.

In my video look, you can still see almost all of the bolt lug in the ejection port.

There is no way to trip the sear if your in that position.

MK2750 · #13 12-02-2008, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dick284

If your turning the bolt even a bit your going too far forward with the bolt.

In my video look, you can still see almost all of the bolt lug in the ejection port.

There is no way to trip the sear if your in that position.

My concern is a bolt not fully engaged and firing. Before there was no chance of a bolt being knocked ajar in the safe position. Now a bolt is not locked down when in safe position. If a person(exspecially a young or exited hunter) knocked the bolt slightly with a bullet chambered while waiting for a clear shot, he could release the saftey and attempt a shot with the bolt in a dangerous position.

Is there even a slight chance the gun would fire?

twofifty · #14 12-02-2008, 07:22 PM

Dick, that leaves me confused.

What do you mean by "If your turning the bolt even a bit your going too far forward with the bolt." ?

Unfortunately I could not play your video, so could not "still see almost all of the bolt lug in the ejection port. There is no way to trip the sear if your in that position."

Are you not talking about cycling the action just enough to push each cartridge free from the magazine lips, without pushing them home with the bolt head? In your example, the round stays loose in the action, is not chambered, and can be tipped out. So the bolt never rotates enough to cock the firing pin and engage the sear, and the mag is safely and quickly emptied. Got it.

My post was to address Outcast's concern that a round might be inadvertently fired when the bolt handle is not fully closed, with only partial bolt lug engagement. I was talking about the fact that on my 1973 model, when the bolt lugs just start to engage their recesses in the action, the rifle cocks and the sear is pre-loaded ready to fire by means of the trigger. When I pull the trigger at that stage on an empty chamber, she goes 'click'. But throw in a live round and an errant trigger finger and one would have an ND compounded by the danger of bolt/action failure IF the partially closed/cammed bolt brings the firing pin within reach of the primer.

Can you set me straight, or is there that much variation in M700s actions?

Dick284 · #15 12-02-2008, 07:30 PM

Let me go try on my 22-250 (in the vid and the wifes 270).
**Primed cases only**

Here is what I found on both the 700's in my house.
In order for the firing pin to travel far enough to initiate ignition on the primer, the bolt had to be at least 90% fully closed.
anything less than 90% closed all you got was a shallow dent on the primer from the firing pin.

I would hazard to say that even at 50% lug engagement (50% closed bolt) there is almost no hazard to the shooter if the cartridge could be set off.(not even likely at 70%) your headspace would likely be pretty excessive though. On a Remington 700 you have so much lug surface when compared to many other rifles out there, (ie. Tikka T3) I cannot for see any sort of real hazard.

Keep your finger off the trigger, learn and teach the no bolt rotation magazine unload technique. And keep your rifle muzzle pointed in a safe direction at all times.

MK2750 · #16 12-02-2008, 07:52 PM

I have three bolts in the safe and just checked each. The Remmy and the Springfield both released the pin in a dangerous position and the bolt went automatically down. No real mark on a dud primer until nearly 90% like Dick stated above.

The other, a Lee-Endfield, would not release the pin at all until about 90% and dropped the bolt down automatically.

Funny how a hundred years later the improvement to saftey is none or maybe less. The Springfield is by far the slickest but the old Lee-Endfield is still my favorite.

twofifty · #17 12-02-2008, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MK2750

.....Funny how a hundred years later the improvement to saftey is none or maybe less. The Springfield is by far the slickest but the old Lee-Endfield is still my favorite.

What Dick is reminding us of, and what has not changed in 100 years,
is that safety lies between our ears, in muscle memory, and in vigilance.

The elements of safety - and I don't mind repeating them here as this is a way to reinforce the message in my own mind - are:

- muzzle control at all times,
- fingers off the trigger till ready to take the shot,
- know what lies behind the target & where the round will end up,
- loaded and unloaded according to circumstance,
- always handled as if loaded,
- check for function or obstructions,
- no horseplay.

Too bad the manufacturers and their lawyers have decided that 10+lb triggers are where safety lies.

MK2750 · #18 12-02-2008, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twofifty

What Dick is reminding us of, and what has not changed in 100 years,
is that safety lies between our ears, in muscle memory, and in vigilance.

The elements of safety - and I don't mind repeating them here as this is a way to reinforce the message in my own mind - are:

- muzzle control at all times,
- fingers off the trigger till ready to take the shot,
- know what lies behind the target & where the round will end up,
- loaded and unloaded according to circumstance,
- always handled as if loaded,
- check for function or obstructions,
- no horseplay.

Too bad the manufacturers and their lawyers have decided that 10+lb triggers are where safety lies.

Why are you quoting me and adding firearm saftey I learned when i was 4 F@##$N years old. I was asking someone who I consider to be knowledgeable and experienced about design changes to the 700 saftey-not how to guide for idiots.

twofifty · #19 12-02-2008, 10:09 PM

Because I got carried away though I was not trying to give YOU a lesson.

Because I was reminding myself more than anything else.

Because a friend told me about a recent drunken party where an unloaded 12 gauge was aimed repeatedly and fired at grown men's heads, all a joke of course so no problem eh.

Because 'accidents' still do happen, even to those who are
well past their 4th F@##$N birthday (see line immediately above).

No offence intended - just a useless public service message.

Carry on.

MK2750 · #20 12-02-2008, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twofifty

Because I got carried away though I was not trying to give YOU a lesson.

Because I was reminding myself more than anything else.

Because a friend told me about a recent drunken party where an unloaded 12 gauge was aimed repeatedly and fired at grown men's heads, all a joke of course so no problem eh.

Because 'accidents' still do happen, even to those who are
well past their 4th F@##$N birthday (see line immediately above).

No offence intended - just a useless public service message.

Carry on.

My bad; My response was more directed at Dion and Layton than you. I'm not having a good day. Nothing wrong with your post, I just took the quote part as personally directed.

Take care,
MK

twofifty · #21 12-02-2008, 11:08 PM

It's been a bad day on the political front that's for sure, and I'm worried too.

Sometimes I get on a bit of a safety elephant binge...today was one of those days.

You see, a couple years ago I had an unintended discharge at the range, just me and a buddy there. Well, let's call it what it was, an ND.

All because I'd kept my finger on the trigger as I adjusted my hold on the rifle: Bang.

Luckily the muzzle was still pointed downrange, and the range was open. Fessed up to Brian: "Hey man, did not intend that one to go off. ****!"
Thing is that though I take gun safety very seriously, I still f'd up. But because I did not F'up the muzzle control part of it, all was good 'cept for my embarassment.

So MK, thanks for understanding.

Back to regular scheduled programming:
Let's hope these idjits in Ottawa settle down right quick.
Nah, it won't happen, I can hear Dion right now on the 11 news squealing his anger and outrage.... But Harper is adding oil to the fire, turning this into an English/French thing which is a smokescreen designed to draw out our baser instincts. Canadians will just have to be bigger than these asshats.

Cheers.

sirmike68 · #22 12-03-2008, 07:40 PM

Do most of you guys walk with your guns cocked and ready to go? I do not chamber the round until I have seen an animal and it only takes a split second to do it. Just curious.

Canuck44 · #23 12-03-2008, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirmike68

Do most of you guys walk with your guns cocked and ready to go? I do not chamber the round until I have seen an animal and it only takes a split second to do it. Just curious.

Sometimes you only have a split second and the noise of loading can be worse than anything. My gun is loaded when I am hunting.

Another question is who has every had a gun go off by accident?

sirmike68 · #24 12-03-2008, 08:44 PM

Another question is who has every had a gun go off by accident?[/QUOTE]

At the range using a 20-30 yr ol Cougre Vore. Gun was cocked and I was sliding the safety on to reposition myself and it went off. This happened twice with this gun, and I no longer use it. Now it is a momento.

Dick284 · #25 12-03-2008, 09:45 PM

If your rifle is discharging from the taking off of the safety, you have a mechanical issue within the trigger group.

I've seen poorly adjusted trigger slam fire on bolt closuer, Ive also seen the take the safety off type of affair as well, from the same thing.

In both instances something was altered most likely due to some one messing with trigger adjustments who knew nothing about firearms, or gunsmithing.

I've also seen this happen due to crud build up in the trigger group, and I also suppose it could happen if parts started to wear.

No reason to junk the gun, just get it to someone who fixes things the right way the first time, ie. a gun smith.