Mythbusting: Shooting a charging bear in the head

[Greg_100]

Thought I would start a thread, just on this myth.

At the end of the thread, hopefully the myth is explored and some agreement is reached.

The myth as all myths have a number of different threads woven into the story.

As a group we can put forth the different versions of the myth, then set forth a set of tests, that the posters can complete using the same methods and report back on their findings.

Someone with a research background can jump in anytime and give structure to this myth busting.

Greg

[Albertabowhunter]

I know I'd never shoot a charging bear in the head with a bow..... I'd pull out the 870 with the sabots

[Canuck44]

The myth I have heard is a 30/30 will bounce off of a grizzlies skull. As I carry a 45/70 for bear protection with a bullet twice a large I would shoot a charging bear in the head. Given the alternative I would do the same with a 30/30 or even my 10/22.

[Greg_100]

My bias to the myth.

Trying to hit the brain of a bear, that is moving close to 20 mph at you, may be to small target to hit.

The myth may have started in the black powder days where round ball was used, thus round ball may not penetrate a skull

The myth may have started because no one would admit to missing a bear at close range. How much lead on the charging bear at close range is needed to make the shot? At what power of scope can you see at 30 ft the head and shoulders verses a black mass of hair in the scope?

What is the best angle to make the shot standing verses knelling at the charging bear?

[bobbypetrolia]

I worked in a beef packing plant that used compressed air and a "knocking gun" to put down the cattle. This is a hand held unit (both hands, mind you) similar to a roofing nail gun in which when the end out the unit was depressed on a surface (in this case, the livestocks forehead) a 6 inch bolt would penetrate the skull. In rare cases (all of them older bulls) the bolt would not penetrate the skull and a .410 slug was used at close range to knock down the animal. This never failed. The gun was hanging on the wll in the knocking box at all times.
There is no way a bears skull is thicker or stronger than a bull.
Can a bullet deflect off a bears skull..............sure. Anything is possible.
Is it likely..................No.

[Greg_100]

This is a Youtube of a game warden shooting a bear with his hangun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18rcY...eature=related

[BUD]

Originally Posted by bobbypetrolia

I worked in a beef packing plant that used compressed air and a "knocking gun" to put down the cattle. This is a hand held unit (both hands, mind you) similar to a roofing nail gun in which when the end out the unit was depressed on a surface (in this case, the livestocks forehead) a 6 inch bolt would penetrate the skull. In rare cases (all of them older bulls) the bolt would not penetrate the skull and a .410 slug was used at close range to knock down the animal. This never failed. The gun was hanging on the wll in the knocking box at all times.
There is no way a bears skull is thicker or stronger than a bull.
Can a bullet deflect off a bears skull..............sure. Anything is possible.
Is it likely..................No.

What hunters and hikers need in this day and age to ward off bears is a hip carrying TASER with 50,000 volts , the same as the cops use on guys with pacemakers and stents.
Then when the bears got ya down , WHAMMOOO , ya hitum with the Taser and off ya go.

[Greg_100]

Happens very quick!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOmwp...eature=related

[Greg_100]

This one you have to log in on Youtube to see, well worth it, to see the out come of being 2nd best in a bear fight

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=Y5SkfLcJlwE



This one guide drops a bear a 8 yards, from the clip, he makes the then first move to shoot at apx. 30 yds , rough math 22 yards to drop a bear you see charging from 60 yards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZnsL...eature=related



A bear charge

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMbnm...eature=related



Fighting with bear

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dopLg...eature=related

[rena0040]

Originally Posted by BUD

What hunters and hikers need in this day and age to ward off bears is a hip carrying TASER with 50,000 volts , the same as the cops use on guys with pacemakers and stents.
Then when the bears got ya down , WHAMMOOO , ya hitum with the Taser and off ya go.

what happens when you drop the taser and run. A very ****ed off bear chases you.

skulls deflect bullets well, there are quite a few incidents where human skulls have deflected 9mm rounds from nearly point blank

if the bear is coming i say shoot and keep shooting till it stops, who cares what you hit head, shoulder, neck or one of each

[packhuntr]

I have to laugh at all the guys who think they will walk away from a close range tight cover attack while carrying a single projectile firing rig.... If you arent a trigger happy yo-yo, you would let a sow bluff if shes gonna. Doesnt matter who you are your gonna be crapping your pants. I wont be worrying about this stupid issue one bit, cause im not nieve enough to think i could make that that high pressure shot with a gun in one hand and a fishing rod in the other. If any one thinks about it for a minute, a shot gun with some maner of shot is no question your best chance,,,,, and the smaller the shot the better for absolutely stopping a bear IN ITS TRACKS. An SSG would have one pellet hitting the animal in the shoulder, another in the cheek, another in the forhead etc etc, quite possibly missing the eyes, ears, nose etc. I use 7 1/2 shot when fishing loaded into a sawed off rig. Im there for a good time, not to become a pile of steaming bear sh*t. The more the better, and im gonna take out ALL THE SENCES while still allowing myself a little grace on wether my hold was abit left, low whatever, when i hit the switch at 10 yards. This topic has been beat like its rented on this forum in the past....... If all you "wonder shots" think you can make that shot with a rifle and come out unscathed well have right at er. Shes a ONE SHOT DEAL BOYS, dont blow the first one!!! No doubt afew might get lucky, but i guarantee boys, if we lined everone up right now, and could take turns surprising every guy with a close range bear at high speed that wasnt bluffing, i bet 99% of our so called riflemen are bear sh*t. I also bet every shotgun shooting small shot stops every single bear.

keep a strain on er.

[catnthehat]

FWIW, I've shot more than a few bears at very close
range, in tight conditions (read willows).
My choice of guns was a short barreled SXS, with SSG's.
I used both triggers on two seperate occasions.

I've also shot them in the middle of the night after coming out of a hammock with a pump gun, and inside a cabin.
They are not to be fooled with in those situations. and one shouldn't worry too much about it except to know how to use you gun WELL.
"one shot deal" is right, there is not usually a second chance....
Cat

[Donny Bear]

People always like to refute one anothers stories and call bull so these are dangerous threads to reply to. In the early 90s I worked in BC with forestry and on more than one occassion dipatched bears and twice in the head one of those being with the cooks 30-30 an old hexagon barrel unit with no front site something I did not realize until it was to late the bear was dispatched with a single head shot inside of five yards. No problem just a little sweat and a clenched set of cheeks. My prefered tool was an Ithica model 37 featherweight cut down to 18 1/2 with plug removed 3 rounds of 000 and 2 slugs. I never needed the slugs and use this more than once and only out of dire need. Not to dispute but bird shot would never be my choice lack of penatration may result in a wounded and very dangerous animial as well as a very prolonged death 000 at close range has deep penetration and is almost gaurenteed to be fatal if not instantly the shortly after. anyway a skull will deflect a bullet if the angle is wrong however with modern weponry and high powered rifle odds are not in the bears favor but I would not mess with the 9mm

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by Donny Bear

30-30 an old hexagon barrel unit with no front site

This reminds me of a story from when I was working in a remote northern camp. I was late going out to the dump once and it was dark. From out of the shadows comes an old native fellow and asks if I had seen any bears around. He had heard they were coming in to the dump and his family was a little hungry he said. He was carrying an old Remington pump 22 with no sights and the cracked stock held together with electrical tape. In the three years I worked there his family never went hungry for very long - and he didn't own any other gun.

[packhuntr]

Oh im not saying you wont have a flopping fish out of water to deal with right away Donny Bear, cause for sure you would. No doubt your gonna have to smoke em with a finisher, in all likely hood anyways. Im saying if you want to stop a bad deal without doubt, take out the eyes nose ears etc, basically all the sences, and live to see another day. Theres no doubt about 7 1/2s not having enough to penetrate and dispatch, but i wouldnt be worrying about dealing out death firstly, id be more concerned with immediatly STOPPING that situation where i hit em the first time. The more little friends you hit em with, the greater the chance of removing the sences that are leading the charge. If im shooting, it wouldnt be because theres room for em to keep advancing {while at the speed of a running horse}. There wouldnt be ANY ROOM FOR ERROR.

[Donny Bear]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Oh im not saying you wont have a flopping fish out of water to deal with right away Donny Bear, cause for sure you would. No doubt your gonna have to smoke em with a finisher, in all likely hood anyways. Im saying if you want to stop a bad deal without doubt, take out the eyes nose ears etc, basically all the sences, and live to see another day. Theres no doubt about 7 1/2s not having enough to penetrate and dispatch, but i wouldnt be worrying about dealing out death firstly, id be more concerned with immediatly STOPPING that situation where i hit em the first time. The more little friends you hit em with, the greater the chance of removing the sences that are leading the charge. If im shooting, it wouldnt be because theres room for em to keep advancing {while at the speed of a running horse}. There wouldnt be ANY ROOM FOR ERROR.

Again not to argue but if you discharge at 5m the shot is still condenced to a small patern if you are 3m its in the wad which limits the ability to take out all the sences in one shot I have been in some tight quarters with bears and never tried bird shot so I can not speak from experiance I will however try to find a study that indicates while the 44 mag hand gun has saved lives in kodiak incounters the 357 has typicaly resulted in the death of the person and the bear. That said a shot gun is formatable at close range with almost any load.

At the risk of hijacking this thread I must say that it is not only bears that can present such dangerous scenarios as being discussed here.

In England years ago it was common practice to drive large numbers of cattle along public roads as they were taken from the railway yards etc., to the slaughterhouses in various towns, including London.

When an animal "goes mad" in a public setting "somebody" has to make a quick decision! There is not time to form a study group or call the troops out, and the best method for initially "stopping" such a beast was to take it's eyes out with a shotgun. Typically this would have been a double barreled game gun loaded with #5 or #6 shot. Whilst this proven method may sound cruel it was the most effective and proved to be far less risky and more expedient than calling the local coppers, who would sometimes arrive with an old .303 loaded with ball ammunition left over from one of the wars. Needless to say this made for a bad combination in what were often densely populated areas.
Just my experienced 2 cents for what they may be worth.

Sharpedge

[nekred]

I have posted on this before..

Having survived numerus bear enconters my weapon of choice is a Remington 870 Marine magnum, customized and designed for bear protection with a choate folding stock, extended magazine and holds 6 3" shells or 7 2-3/4 inch shells in magazine.

When bear is charging I have 000 buckshot and slugs alternating. Forget about a headshot when bear is charging, you have to hit big bone to stop the charge. I dead headshot bear that is still charging is just as dangerous as a live one. You also have the risk of a glance-off the skull.

You hit the shoulders and break the bear down. I have had a very large bear charging and I got the first shot off with bear about 15 feet away, he walked into a fast moving wall of buckshot and it ripped his front shoulder apart and almost took his leg off... the next 4 shots were pure nerves... bear was down and was a steaming pile of meat.

I shot my very first grizzly when I was 11. many an old trapper and my dad's friends all taught me to break a bear down with shoulder shots... hit big bone and it will anchor them. To make a long story short... i came across a grizzly on a kill and she charged me, my grandpa's 303 then went into action and I got all 10 shots off in record time (He also taught me how to speedshoot accurately) 4 shots were in head area and it was not until I hit shoulder that it started to drop her, she skidded to a stop where I was standing. At that point i had already managed to shinny up a tree while relieveing bladder and bowels for a bit of extra thrust!....

When Dad came up we found rifle under the bear!.... Since that day i learned... HIT BONE!

Ihave also dropped a pest grizzly that was in our beehives when i was a teenager with my .243... all i had with me at time besides .22. not the perfect weapon of choice but I hit shoulder and broke it and was able to then immobolize with a spine shot an then a finishing shot.

I have also used a handgun on black bears because it was easier to carry. gtting the permit was a long process but after using it a couple of times on bears I went back to Shotgun if i was in an area with lots of bear sign!...

Anyways from someone who has lots of experience with shooting riled up bears.

What is really funny is that the 10 bears I have put an arrow through all died very quickly in comparison!... because they were not riled up!..

[duffy4]

Originally Posted by Greg_100

Thought I would start a thread, just on this myth.

At the end of the thread, hopefully the myth is explored and some agreement is reached.

The myth as all myths have a number of different threads woven into the story.

As a group we can put forth the different versions of the myth, then set forth a set of tests, that the posters can complete using the same methods and report back on their findings.

Someone with a research background can jump in anytime and give structure to this myth busting.

Greg

Well I am going to do some bear hunting this spring. And if and when I get a bear I will skin out its noggin and do some experiments. With a .22 lr I will start with an extreme angle and shoot accross the flat of the skull and try and catch the slug in wet newspaper beyond the skull. If it does deflect I will change the angle and try again until the bullet goes into the skull. Then I will try a shot right on the sagital crest(that sharp ridge of bone along the top and back of the skull). I'll measure angles and document with pictures.



Just for fun I may pattern a shotgun on a watermellow at close range with 7 1/2 shot and SSGs.

Then I'll put my pepper spray on my hip and go fishing.

Robin in Rocky

[Copidosoma]

Originally Posted by duffy4

Well I am going to do some bear hunting this spring. And if and when I get a bear I will skin out its noggin and do some experiments. With a .22 lr I will start with an extreme angle and shoot accross the flat of the skull and try and catch the slug in wet newspaper beyond the skull. If it does deflect I will change the angle and try again until the bullet goes into the skull. Then I will try a shot right on the sagital crest(that sharp ridge of bone along the top and back of the skull). I'll measure angles and document with pictures.



Just for fun I may pattern a shotgun on a watermellow at close range with 7 1/2 shot and SSGs.

Then I'll put my pepper spray on my hip and go fishing.

Robin in Rocky

repeatedly shooting the same skull won't prove too much (just because a bullet deflects doesn't mean it doesn't damage the structure). Although something is probably better than nothing.

Trying to come up with a "magic" angle between penetration and deflection might end some debates but isn't really useful in the real world. Kinda a waste of your time but might be fun. Let us know how it works out.

[James M]

I once met a guy at the Grandview stage gas station with a small cinnamon bear laying in the box of his pickup truck.......with the front of it's muzzle blown off. He said it charged him so he shot it in the head coming at him. I tihnk he siad he was shooting a 7 mag or something like that.

[BC7stw]

I have been charged by a bear. From close range you don't have time to load your gun. This was a false charge that started at about 20 yrds, and ended at 6 or 8. I was carrying a bold action with no shell in the chamber. I didn't have time to chamber a round. If the bear hadn't stopped I would have been done. I live in an area with a high density of bears, both blacks and griz. I have not had to put down a charging bear, the only one I've been charged by left, spooked I believe by me chambering a round while staring at his black beady eyes.

This bear came from 20 yrds. Unless you have the reation time of a super computor you will not have time to react to a charging bear at 20 paces. Trust me on this one. I barely had time to swing my rifle in that direction. If the gun was at my shoulder, if it was loaded and if the safety was off, maybe, I may have had a chance to shoot at this bear. I wouldn't have had time to aim??? They come at you so fast it still shocks me to this day.

I know a few people who have had to destroy bears of both types do to aggression. One fellow was calling moose. Heard a noise and looked down the trail. A young grizzly boar stood looking at him from 85 yards ( measured afterward ). As soon as he made eye contact it charged. His 30-06 was craddled in his arms, a shell in the chamber, with the safety on. He said he had time to flip off the safety, find the bear in the scope and fire. It was less than 10 yards when he fired. Hit it in the chest and stepped out of the way as there was no chance for a second shot.

I could tell a few more, all very similar stories, what I've learned from all this, If a bear charges without warning, and you aren't carrying a loaded gun, sucks for you. Do I think there are instances where a shotgun or such would help, absolutely. Work great to save my buddy who can't run as fast.

[378 Wthrby]

Everyone here is talking about the perfect shot when a bear is charging. If you have a gun no matter what you have hitting hair is always good. I am a true believer in always carry more gun that what you need. I carry a 378 and honestly if a bear is charging i will take fast aim and I will guarantee if i hit it in the head it will be really messed up. I agree with hit bone first and then use follow up shots if needed. Bottom line is what ever you have in your hands is still better than nothing, shot placement is the key.
just my 2 cents

[Pioneer2]

If you look at a bear skull you will notice the brain lies somewhat lower than most mammals.The shortest least obstructed route to the brain is right in the end of the nose.A .22 would even make it although I'd rather it wasn't by me.Still better than a sharp stick.Harold * was with a guy and was charged by a black and the Sako .300 mag fixed that with a chest hit at around 20 yards ears flat back and comin fast

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by duffy4

Well I am going to do some bear hunting this spring. And if and when I get a bear I will skin out its noggin and do some experiments. With a .22 lr I will start with an extreme angle and shoot accross the flat of the skull and try and catch the slug in wet newspaper beyond the skull. If it does deflect I will change the angle and try again until the bullet goes into the skull. Then I will try a shot right on the sagital crest(that sharp ridge of bone along the top and back of the skull). I'll measure angles and document with pictures.



Just for fun I may pattern a shotgun on a watermellow at close range with 7 1/2 shot and SSGs.

Then I'll put my pepper spray on my hip and go fishing.

Robin in Rocky

Bella Twin didn't seem to have any trouble driving .22 bullets into her Grizz's skull . Years ago, I had a surgeon, who was a hiker, tell me that any bullet from a high powered rifle would simply bounce off a Grizzly's skull. I wished he was around to see the bag of bones, Fish and Wildlife presented me with, after I shot my Grizzly in the head with a 7 mm 162 gr. Hornady softpoint. I had wounded the bear, he had fallen behind a brush pile and when he came back up, I wasn't going to wait and try for a chest shot.
Grizz