Spinning Arrow Insert...Eliminate Wind Plane?

[L.O.S.T.Arrow]

Spinning Arrow Insert...Eliminate Wind Plane?

Although not a total new concept IMHO these may make a big/huge differance for some... in theory no more wind planning, indexing broadheads, poor penertration in cirrcumstances...

In the 80's there was a broadhead by NAP called the Razorbak Five...it had five soild blades with no venting...one would think they would plane like a wet noodle...but the flew amazing due to a spinning ferrule...and penertration was outstanding

I know experianced shooters still shooting these today, along with NAPs later version the razor back ...I main two blade with bleeders that also spun on ferrule..

wind planning is a big issue with todays fast bows, these spinning inserts may eliminate that for some

When bow, arrow, and archer are tuned to perfection you may still have trouble with a broadheads arrows flight. Fixed blade broadheads have a steering effect on arrows like the rudder on a boat. This is why many fixed blade broadheads are vented as to lessen the rudder effect.
This is the reason for mechanical broadheads being invented in the first place. The price paid for blades being vented are weaker blades, more surface friction due to vents clogging with tissues, and noisy arrow flight.
What about mechanicals? Sure the arrow flight is better, but at what cost? Smaller weak blades break and bend, there is massive loss of energy to open the blades on impact, sometimes blades don‟t open on impact, and at times there is complete broadhead failure.

Arrow Flight with the Spinning Insert

With the “spinning insert” the Broadhead does not spin at the same rate as the arrow shaft. This dramatically lessens the broad heads steering and wind plane. The “spinning insert” allows fixed bladed broad heads to fly like mechanicals or field points (with a properly tuned bow).

http://ethicsarchery.com/

Summary*...As these may also help with penertration ...they could be the standard if proven in years to come...

I ordered a bunch and will do a review both on wind planning and penertration soon, I really like the idea!!



Neil

[CNP]

I shot those razorbaks back in the 80's....................I remember the orange case. Shot my first deer with them. Didn't know that a similar version was introduced.

[HoytCRX32]

Great thread LOST...can't wait to hear the results

[3blade]

you know you're from the praries when you get excited about something you can test in the wind. God knows there won't be a shortage of it lol

Curious to hear the results.

[mountain man 300 win]

I like the idea! I cant wait to hear about how these work out!

[ramonmark]

Looking forward to the review!

[hoytcanon]

I shot Razorback 5's, way back when... I didn't like them and went back to Thunderheads at the time. A rotating ferrule "should" help with planing, it should also help with deflecting from solid bone and continuing on a "straighter" path through the animal... and in theory, in not giving up energy by sticking bone more squarely, more energy should go into forward movement (deeper penetration)... assuming the ferrules hold up at impact and continue to function as intended.

[L.O.S.T.Arrow]

Became a dealer and ordered several hundred for testing...

One great thing I like is the standard arrow is the insert is 35 gr for weight forward and there is 55 gr 75 and 100 gr for precise weight forward choice

Neil

[double gun]

I would have thought it's one extra place to fail. Break, seize, freeze, more tolerances introduced.

[L.O.S.T.Arrow]

Originally Posted by double gun

I would have thought it's one extra place to fail. Break, seize, freeze, more tolerances introduced.

Like anything else when it works it works when it fails...Murphy hunts too...lol

[Ultimate Predator]

Would like to try a doz see what happens

[coyotekiller]

Originally Posted by HoytCRX32

Great thread LOST...can't wait to hear the results

x2

[MadMarty911]

Waiting with baited breath!

[ramonmark]

I got my 35gr spinning inserts in the mail 2 days ago. I installed two of them that day and have been chomping at the bit to test them out. Just a little history with my bow set up. I was using the G5 Montecs cs. I like them But they don't seem to like my set up. I can't shoot field points and the g5's accurately together. I've done everything One can for tuning. Even sent the rig to Jim bows and still no avail. The best groups while shooting the field points and g5's were about 5" at 50 yards. That was the best! The normal was around 8" at 50 yards! Since then I've tested a few other broadheads and put away the g5's.

Today I got some time to sneak out a sling a few arrows. I set up my target and paced off 50 yards. I then let 2 arrows fly. Both of these have the spinning inserts. One was tipped with a 100 field point and the other was with the 100gr G5 Montec. I know my bow is no longer tuned for this set up. And I also know that even when tuned it still hates this head. I literally screwed in one head in one arrow and a opposite in the other. No practice shots, no warm up, just let them rip. I was very surprised! I'm sure I could have done way better but it was pretty windy and I was all over the map with my movement. I Only took one picture. It's on the first two shots of the day. Shot at 50 yards. It's not the best group, but for my bow and these heads I've never shot something this tight. My 20 and 30 yards groups were great tho. I was slapping arrow shafts on a regular at 20 and occasionally at 30! That never happens with my static inserts and g5's!

I'll be doing more tests but for a initial testing and with zero tuning I'm really liking what I'm seeing. I think I'm going to install the rest and maybe mess with the sights a bit. I'll be doing some More tests soon!

[L.O.S.T.Arrow]

Nice shooting...hope to have mine soon also..

Neil

[jlgsgw]

So in theory these will help the arrows avoid being thrown of course in the wind?

[Pdub]

Speaking of spinning accessories has anyone tried the Spinnock? The idea behind it seems sound and the slo-mo videos seem to support this theory as well.

http://www.spinnock.com/

Sorry if this is a total derailment but it seems if you have one spinny thing on one end of your arrow why not the other, so to speak...?

Thoughts?

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by Pdub

Speaking of spinning accessories has anyone tried the Spinnock? The idea behind it seems sound and the slo-mo videos seem to support this theory as well.

http://www.spinnock.com/

Sorry if this is a total derailment but it seems if you have one spinny thing on one end of your arrow why not the other, so to speak...?

Thoughts?

If you need to idex vanes it won't work well.

LC

[L.O.S.T.Arrow]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

If you need to idex vanes it won't work well.

LC

Agreed ..could be a diaster on rests like the Ugly Cookie..vane in QS opening...

[normanrd]

I'm interested to see what happens when they freeze or get full of dirt so the ferris can't spin. Could be interesting then.

[ramonmark]

Originally Posted by normanrd

I'm interested to see what happens when they freeze or get full of dirt so the ferris can't spin. Could be interesting then.

I was thinking the same thing. I don't plan on using a dirty arrow though. As far as the ice goes I wonder if a little squirt of graphite or extreme temperature gun lube in the insert might help this?

[ramonmark]

Originally Posted by jlgsgw

So in theory these will help the arrows avoid being thrown of course in the wind?

If the environment is windy a spinning broad head would be the least of your concern. The wind will effect the whole arrow regardless.

The idea behind wind planing is, your broad head is directed by the air as it cruises though the air at a high speed. It can create lift or steer your arrow off course. Where the broad head is directed the arrow will follow. Much like a fixed wing on an airplane. Although with a wing on a plane one can control the lift with adjustable 'flaps' (I think that's the word I'm looking for, not sure). Although once the arrow leaves the string you are not able to control is flight. The theory with the spinning insert is that the broad head is now free from resistance and and will not resist the air as it travels at a high rate of speed. If it can't resist the wind it wont guide the arrow off course. I'm still a little skeptical but from my initial test it sure changed my mind!

[jlgsgw]

Originally Posted by ramonmark

If the environment is windy a spinning broad head would be the least of your concern. The wind will effect the whole arrow regardless.

The idea behind wind planing is, your broad head is directed by the air as it cruises though the air at a high speed. It can create lift or steer your arrow off course. Where the broad head is directed the arrow will follow. Much like a fixed wing on an airplane. Although with a wing on a plane one can control the lift with adjustable 'flaps' (I think that's the word I'm looking for, not sure). Although once the arrow leaves the string you are not able to control is flight. The theory with the spinning insert is that the broad head is now free from resistance and and will not resist the air as it travels at a high rate of speed. If it can't resist the wind it wont guide the arrow off course. I'm still a little skeptical but from my initial test it sure changed my mind!

Definitely interesting, keep us updated

[ForwardBias]

Cool.

[calgarychef]

At a time like this it's wise to remember the immortal words of P.T.Barnum

[antler1]

Maybe this is a dumb question but if you already have your expensive arrows cut to the minimum and have other inserts epoxied in how are you going to try these new spinners out without cutting your arrows/original inserts off?

[ramonmark]

Originally Posted by antler1

Maybe this is a dumb question but if you already have your expensive arrows cut to the minimum and have other inserts epoxied in how are you going to try these new spinners out without cutting your arrows/original inserts off?

Put a field point in your vise. Make sure the threads are facing you and the head of the point is in the vise jaws. Heat up the whole field point with a torch. thread your arrow onto the hot field point. wait about 3-5 seconds then slowly pull on the arrow. The insert will come out smoothly. If it doesn't take off the arrow and reheat field point. It's super simple. My first attempt was after watching a youtube video about 2 weeks ago.

That was my main concert. i have hundreds of dollars invested in all of my gear. hey if you want I have a few extra inserts you can try for free. I was given a few extra 75gr spinning inserts for trial purposes. if you wanna give them a whirl let me know.

[L.O.S.T.Arrow]

Originally Posted by ramonmark

Put a field point in your vise. Make sure the threads are facing you and the head of the point is in the vise jaws. Heat up the whole field point with a torch. thread your arrow onto the hot field point. wait about 3-5 seconds then slowly pull on the arrow. The insert will come out smoothly. If it doesn't take off the arrow and reheat field point. It's super simple. My first attempt was after watching a youtube video about 2 weeks ago.

That was my main concert. i have hundreds of dollars invested in all of my gear. hey if you want I have a few extra inserts you can try for free. I was given a few extra 75gr spinning inserts for trial purposes. if you wanna give them a whirl let me know.

Use Caution and not overheat field point as it can damage carbon arrows

Neil

[ramonmark]

Got another test completed.

Just a reminder, I only bought these inserts to test. So please don’t bash what I’ve found. I’ve spent my own hard earned money and time on these tests.

I’ve done a couple more accuracy test in the meantime and didn’t note anything to really write home about. The lack of wind planning with these is excellent. All the ranges produced good results. The ONLY thing I will mention is these inserts HAVE to spin freely. If you have any resistance in one versus the other your accuracy will be sacrificed. After shooting these inserts a couple hundred times I noticed one was a little sticky whey spinning the insert with my fingers. I ended up adding a bit of gun oil to all the inserts and that fixed the problem. With that said two things occurred to me. The first one being the obvious, if the insert stops spinning then you are up chit creek. Even a little resistance will affect accuracy. The second one was what brought me to my next test.

I got thinking about the design of these. These inserts are seated about 1.25 -1.5” deep into the arrow shaft. (I’m only guessing, I haven’t actually measured). The back of the insert, closet to the nock is about .5” long and that is what gets glued into the arrow shaft. This leaves about .75-1” of the remaining part of the insert to spin freely inside the shaft. After my one insert started to resist spinning a bit it occurred to me that due to the insert being glued in the rear, there may be a weak point at the end of the arrow. There is about 1” at the tip of the arrow that is just carbon fibre and nothing integral on the inside to stop forces from the side. From what I understand, carbon fibre is very sturdy at resisting forces straight on but an impact to the side it is quite brittle. After my arrow was shot a few times and started to resist I decided to test the bond of the insert. With my thumb I pushed and pulled on the insert from side to side. And with a considerable amount of pressure I was able to make the insert touch the inside of the end of the arrow shaft. This was enough to feel the carbon bind up the spinning of the insert itself.

Today I decided to test the strength of the inserts. Not just the straight on impact but the side to side strength of the insert while it’s inside the arrow shaft. I wanted a strong but semi realistic target. Not a metal barrel. I have a few used passenger car tires kicking around, so I decided to give them a go. I set up tires between my self healing target at 60 yards. I kept the tires lying flat and attempted to hit the tread on the top one. I didn’t want the arrow to be straight on with the target but sort of lobbed. This also reduced the speed of the arrow on impact. I’m going hunting for wild boar this spring and I figured this would give me a pretty good idea of a tough surface. Obviously the tire is tougher than a boar’s skin but soft enough on initial impact for the broad head to bite before it hits the hard internals. I shot at the tire 3 times. I missed once and connected twice. My gear is too expensive for me to risk breaking too many items.

The first arrow impacted low and right on the rounded part of the tire, between the sidewall and tread. The arrow passed though the tire about 10” before it stopped. The arrow was missing the broad head and the end of the arrow shaft was broken and splintered. I was actually half expecting this but the next part is what concerned me. Upon closer inspection of the arrow I noticed that the insert actually broke in half! It appears to have broken right at the point that spins, between the glued back end and the free floating part. The broad head was never recovered.

The second arrow impacted in and around the middle of the tire from side to side and a little higher into the tread of the tire. Right around the same spot as the first arrow but to the high side of the tire. This was not intend but luckily enough it made the test quite fair between the two sepperate impacts. This arrow passed though about the same depth. The broad head and insert were both still attached. Although, the insert is now resisting enough that I would no longer trust it to do its job a second time. If you are expecting to reuse your arrows I will let you decide that for yourself. Personally, with these inserts, I wouldn’t reuse my arrows after a hunt.


As a conclusion I find that even though these inserts do their job at reducing wind plaining they create a weak spot on your arrow. I believe that if the insert was inverted and the glued part to the front this would fix the weak spot on the arrow. (If the spinning part was running on the internal part of the insert opposed to the front).

It’s getting late for me and I’m all typed out. If anyone wants to see any other tests please let me know. I’m satisfied with this at the moment. If any part of my hunting gear doesn’t 100% satisfy me I don’t risk it. Now, if you want these for target shooting then it may be your ticket. With that said, I don’t see the point of needing a spinning insert for target shooting. Most target shooting is done with field points, which don’t cause planing issues.

Below are some pictures of the tests. *NOTE, the picture of the broad head in my hand was from the arrow that did not break and I only included it to show how tough a tire is to carbon steel*


First arrow.








Second arrow.







Broad head from second after impact.

[ramonmark]

NOTE *** Both of the arrows used for this so called stress test were completely new and the inserts used were never used as well. With the exception of removing the previous insert. To be fair, maybe I damaged one of the arrow ends when removing the insert? I did a very thorough inspection and did not see any damage but one can never be sure. Both were spinning freely before the test. The insert that was binding earlier was NOT used for this test. In my mind that would not make for a fair test.***

Thought I'd just mention that since it was not earlier. I'm no professional archer and consider myself still a novice at best. I try to be completely unbiased when testing a new product. Although, when I'm spending my own money it is hard to convince myself to risk breaking or damaging more equipment. I would like to state for the record that I really do like these inserts but will not be using then for hunting. The company states that they reduce wind planing and the product did show that.