Save ewes apply and burn the tag!

[SLH]

Originally Posted by RZR

The same clowns that put all their faith in the bio's info on sheep, but in the next breath bitch and complain about how bad they manage antelope.

I suppose I could put my faith in someone like you who saw more sheep in the 70'S and 80's when there was 20 to 30% less sheep.

[25-06rem.model700]

Originally Posted by SLH

Fair enough criticism on the responses but there is more than a little proof that harvesting females in an appropriate manner is good management. Right now I dont think a female caribou hunt is appropriate and I'm sure there are sheep populations in Alberta that can't take a hunt, but it is a good practice under appropriate circumstances.

The study on this was done on ram mountain. I understand that you can over graze a area and the herd suffers but ram mountain is separated from majority of the other ranges so it’s hard for the herd to move to other feeding grounds. They said they found that ram size went up there after the ewe harvest but why aren’t we seeing big young rams in the other areas that have had ewe harvest?

[RZR]

Originally Posted by 25-06rem.model700

The study on this was done on ram mountain. I understand that you can over graze a area and the herd suffers but ram mountain is separated from majority of the other ranges so it’s hard for the herd to move to other feeding grounds. They said they found that ram size went up there after the ewe harvest but why aren’t we seeing big young rams in the other areas that have had ewe harvest?

Bingo!! We have a winner. Different feed and habitat in all parts of the province.

[SLH]

Originally Posted by 25-06rem.model700

The study on this was done on ram mountain. I understand that you can over graze a area and the herd suffers but ram mountain is separated from majority of the other ranges so it’s hard for the herd to move to other feeding grounds. They said they found that ram size went up there after the ewe harvest but why aren’t we seeing big young rams in the other areas that have had ewe harvest?

That is a great question. I suspect (and I will be vilified for this) we aren't letting them grow up, but there is benefit to herd health by utilizing ewe harvests that wouldn't be reflected in large rams in the harvest. Only a comparison of the alternative would show if tthere was a benefit to the number of ewes in any given population. You mentioned earlier about ranching and cattle, I try to turn over about 10% of my herd avery year, 10% new heifers 10% cull cows. I know how many total I can run and if I exceed that they get weak, un productive and small.

I suspect as well that the actual carrying capacity of any given area you are looking at has never been carried out. If you go through the survey reports for the areas you have concerns about you might find some trends.

It is complicated

[Coiloil37]

Originally Posted by RZR

Really, tell us what the number of ewes were in the 80's as apposed to now. I know when I hunted in the 70's and 80's I seen a lot more sheep then I do now.

Would it be logical to assume when you were 30-50 years younger you saw more or better country during a hunt? One would have to think you were in better shape then and it might have some correlation to number of sheep observed.

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Tell me 25...….

What % of population harvest rate are we currently filling?
How does that compare with historical and current trends?
How many ewe tags were issues during the eighties when lots of young and old book rams were being killed every year, and what was the overall sheep population then compared to now?

Tell us about reproduction rates of young versus old ewes, and population density effects....

And historical vs. current habitat...

Tell us why Geist and Wishart are wrong about sheep biology and hunting management....

If you don't know these things, you should before telling us what to do, especially something akin to classic anti-hunting agendas.





Draw those ewe tags and FILL 'em!

Could you answer your own questions for the rest of us? I don’t have much faith in the OP answering them for you.

[smith88]

Originally Posted by RZR

Bingo!! We have a winner. Different feed and habitat in all parts of the province.

Yes, different areas and habitat but the same species. There has to be a balance. There is only so much forage for sheep. So more ewes and lambs equals less forage for rams so they can't grow as large and also spend more energy running around fighting and breeding in the rut which will equal mortality. Selective harvest ewes (past breeding age and not the herd leader) increases the amount of forage left for other for other sheep which improves herd health and likely horn size.
Ranchers can only have so many cows on so much land and they have to have so many bulls to breed so many cows. Ranchers don't keep cows around that don't get pregnant especially if they are old. No point in feeding them if they aren't being productive, same goes for sheep (besides the lead ewe)

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper

To bad fish and wildlife wouldn’t give us the good stuff!

What’s the good stuff?
Asking for a friend
😉

[RZR]

Originally Posted by SLH

I suppose I could put my faith in someone like you who saw more sheep in the 70'S and 80's when there was 20 to 30% less sheep.

Show us the stats that prove your theory that there were, is it 20 or 30% less sheep in 1983.

[RZR]

Originally Posted by smith88

Yes, different areas and habitat but the same species. There has to be a balance. There is only so much forage for sheep. So more ewes and lambs equals less forage for rams so they can't grow as large and also spend more energy running around fighting and breeding in the rut which will equal mortality. Selective harvest ewes (past breeding age and not the herd leader) increases the amount of forage left for other for other sheep which improves herd health and likely horn size.
Ranchers can only have so many cows on so much land and they have to have so many bulls to breed so many cows. Ranchers don't keep cows around that don't get pregnant especially if they are old. No point in feeding them if they aren't being productive, same goes for sheep (besides the lead ewe)

Different herds have different genetics and different areas have different minerals which plays a part in horn size. So you can’t do a study in one area and blanket a whole province with a theory.

[25-06rem.model700]

Originally Posted by SLH

That is a great question. I suspect (and I will be vilified for this) we aren't letting them grow up, but there is benefit to herd health by utilizing ewe harvests that wouldn't be reflected in large rams in the harvest. Only a comparison of the alternative would show if tthere was a benefit to the number of ewes in any given population. You mentioned earlier about ranching and cattle, I try to turn over about 10% of my herd avery year, 10% new heifers 10% cull cows. I know how many total I can run and if I exceed that they get weak, un productive and small.

I suspect as well that the actual carrying capacity of any given area you are looking at has never been carried out. If you go through the survey reports for the areas you have concerns about you might find some trends.

It is complicated

The argument I have with this though is with the exception of predators (I don’t believe that predators just prey on the weak they prey on what’s handy) nature weans out the weak ones. It’s pretty tough thing for hunters as a whole to be able to go and be selective enough to be able to take cull ewes. Which would be best if it could be done would be the taking on cull rams. The area I worked at in the Yukon for majority of my career we regularly took full rams by outfitter or guide personal harvest. I do completely agree with the fact that we’re not letting enough rams grow up. Also minus the areas bordering parks where a lot of rams come out for the rut I have no doubt that years and years of people trophy hunting rams has slimmed down the gene pool a bit. Things are gonna go through trends for sure with winterkill and predation, and poor weather during lambing season. All I’m trying to say in the end is I think with our predator numbers at this point that the non-trophy season is not needed.

[SLH]

Originally Posted by RZR

Show us the stats that prove your theory that there were, is it 20 or 30% less sheep in 1983.

Cherry pick much? If you have that number than you can see the population for 1971-77 4000, 4500, to 5000.

1980 5400.

2008 6900


Why don't you do the math.

[SLH]

Originally Posted by 25-06rem.model700

The argument I have with this though is with the exception of predators (I don’t believe that predators just prey on the weak they prey on what’s handy) nature weans out the weak ones. It’s pretty tough thing for hunters as a whole to be able to go and be selective enough to be able to take cull ewes. Which would be best if it could be done would be the taking on cull rams. The area I worked at in the Yukon for majority of my career we regularly took full rams by outfitter or guide personal harvest. I do completely agree with the fact that we’re not letting enough rams grow up. Also minus the areas bordering parks where a lot of rams come out for the rut I have no doubt that years and years of people trophy hunting rams has slimmed down the gene pool a bit. Things are gonna go through trends for sure with winterkill and predation, and poor weather during lambing season. All I’m trying to say in the end is I think with our predator numbers at this point that the non-trophy season is not needed.

Its not even so much a specific cull of individual animals just the dynamics shift the production of the animals generally younger animals will breed younger and older animals stay productive longer. Look up William Wishart a working hypothesis for rocky mountain bighorn sheep management, he is the man on this and will make it more understandible. The one thing I'll emphasize is that carrying capacity has to be known and we really need more work on this. Again there is a lot to this, more than what I've stated here

[boonedocks]

Originally Posted by 25-06rem.model700

The argument I have with this though is with the exception of predators (I don’t believe that predators just prey on the weak they prey on what’s handy) nature weans out the weak ones. It’s pretty tough thing for hunters as a whole to be able to go and be selective enough to be able to take cull ewes. Which would be best if it could be done would be the taking on cull rams. The area I worked at in the Yukon for majority of my career we regularly took full rams by outfitter or guide personal harvest. I do completely agree with the fact that we’re not letting enough rams grow up. Also minus the areas bordering parks where a lot of rams come out for the rut I have no doubt that years and years of people trophy hunting rams has slimmed down the gene pool a bit. Things are gonna go through trends for sure with winterkill and predation, and poor weather during lambing season. All I’m trying to say in the end is I think with our predator numbers at this point that the non-trophy season is not needed.

This brings me to the Newbie question of how would one know which ewes to cull ( other than obviously not taking a ewe with a lamb at foot)? This is a realtime dilemma for me as I have acquired enough priority points to pull a non trophy tag pretty much anywhere in Alberta, but the idea of accidentally taking a breeding ewe has me reluctant pull said tag. I’m not getting any younger but will have a lot more time to dedicate to hunting in the coming years and I’m looking at new adventures. “You gotta start somewhere”!

[SLH]

Originally Posted by boonedocks

This brings me to the Newbie question of how would one know which ewes to cull ( other than obviously not taking a ewe with a lamb at foot)? This is a realtime dilemma for me as I have acquired enough priority points to pull a non trophy tag pretty much anywhere in Alberta, but the idea of accidentally taking a breeding ewe has me reluctant pull said tag. I’m not getting any younger but will have a lot more time to dedicate to hunting in the coming years and I’m looking at new adventures. “You gotta start somewhere”!

Its irrelevant, think in terms of the herd not on an individual basis. If you are really stumped take a lamb.