New Sheep Jig and Registering - Page 5

bdub · #**121** 10-09-2019, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justahunter

What Fish & Wildlife is doing here is unethical and will be defeated. First of all the regulations specificly state that the line must be drawn from the front of the base to the tip . And that the line needs to be beyond the eye. What they are doing with this jig is not going to the tip but going to the beyond location . The beyond location is not clearly identified therefore cannot apply in law . Insist that jason Nixon becomes totally aware of this and he can fire the idiot that came up with it

I have a photo of a buds ram in the jig, lined up perfectly where the fish cops say they are measuring to, in perfect profile, showing the jig along the horn bases, and showing the other plane of the jig just in front of the brown portion of the eyeball, not the eye socket.

And this has always been the case as far as I know/experienced. Always been the dark portion of the eyeball. I don't think anything has changed.

I have to ask guys who have had a sheep in the jig if the officers took any photos as part of the registration process?

Gear guy · #**122** 10-09-2019, 10:38 PM

Who knows if they take pics or not. They do their thing when you are out of the room and did not let me in there during the process. Only when they were finished was I allowed in and I assume this is the way most places do it.
I have zero faith in what goes on now after reading these stories. Boy are there going to be a pile of short sheep shot this year. Sad as they most likely will be an inch legal if measured according to the regs and not the socket.
And by what I can tell I think that sheep posted is legal.

Mr. Dynamite · #**123** 10-10-2019, 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper

Chet I had a very similar story of lies and entrapment, regarding the X on the map.

What’s the reason behind the location of the kill? Why do they need to know the exact spot?

ram crazy · #**124** 10-10-2019, 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gear guy

Who knows if they take pics or not. They do their thing when you are out of the room and did not let me in there during the process. Only when they were finished was I allowed in and I assume this is the way most places do it.
I have zero faith in what goes on now after reading these stories. Boy are there going to be a pile of short sheep shot this year. Sad as they most likely will be an inch legal if measured according to the regs and not the socket.
And by what I can tell I think that sheep posted is legal.

This is what my sheep hunting partner and I have been saying about a lot of sheep that are going to come up short. I asked an officer about this and he said oh no you'll still get the same results with the cape off. I said no you won't as the front of the eye is smaller with the cape on as opposed to cape off and now here we sit talking about this very thing. It sounds like everyone is getting to go into the rooms when sheep are being registered, except for the Lethbridge office. When I phoned to make an appointment I was told to bring it in they will get to it when they get to it. I said to them what's the point in phoning for an appointment then, and told them I only want to take 1 day off work as opposed to 2 days off. So when I finally did get to take it in they made sure no officer or biologist was present before or after to answer any questions. I think this is super dickish on there part. It's a good thing the 1 officer's father in law lives next door to me as when the off duty officer came to his place only then could I ask questions about this new setup they are using.

cody j · #**125** 10-10-2019, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Dynamite

What’s the reason behind the location of the kill? Why do they need to know the exact spot?

To press charges if the x is in the wrong spot. As far as the measuring goes I see no reason why they wouldn’t do it in front of the hunter, unless they do it in private to come up with a strategy to measure it in a way it comes up short. This should be a black and white thing with no grey area, why not show the hunter how it’s done and explain things.

Gear guy · #**126** 10-10-2019, 07:11 AM

The way they mark the X on a map is insane. I couldn't find it on their map and be 100 percent confident. They said use your best judgement which I cringed at considering being a few miles off could put me in Banff National park. They would have a great laugh over that when they put the handcuffs on me! I can point out just fine on a map from the regulations where I was but they basically wanted the exact dranage and be right on the money which I was not confident in but gave it my best shot.

MooseRiverTrapper · #**127** 10-10-2019, 07:14 AM

For me the said there was no paper maps in the office. They come free with regs lol. Took me over to the computer with google satellite spun it all around. It didn’t show park boundaries and wanted to know exactly where.

Athabasca1 · #**128** 10-10-2019, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gear guy

The way they mark the X on a map is insane. I couldn't find it on their map and be 100 percent confident. They said use your best judgement which I cringed at considering being a few miles off could put me in Banff National park. They would have a great laugh over that when they put the handcuffs on me! I can point out just fine on a map from the regulations where I was but they basically wanted the exact dranage and be right on the money which I was not confident in but gave it my best shot.

Possible solution to avoid the "gotcha" element of exact location. It would entail carrying extra gear but you could carry a hand held GPS unit. Set the way point of the kill site with the latitude and longitude coordinates and save the way point on the unit. You could mark the way point on the map provided in the regulations as the perimeter of the provided map has the longitude and latitude degrees indicated. If they want you to use goggle maps on their computer you can enter the saved latitude and longitude coordinates in the search menu and they will be indicated on the google map. If it was me I would have both the marked up map provided in the regulations in hand and a printed copy of the marked up goggle maps in hand when I went to register the ram.

Full Curl Earl · #**129** 10-10-2019, 11:52 AM

Nowhere does it state you must GPS your kill location! Or even tell them where in the zone. I just say 444, and when they as where and to draw an X on the spot, I make a big X that covers the zone. If there are no zones shown, I just say in 444. I refuse to answer any questions at all, as thise questions are about the officer jammung you up. There is no Biological benefit to knowing which drainage.
There are plenty of F&W Officers that sheep hunt. Giving away your hard earned spot is not a requirement.
Answering questions other than the date of kill and zone, are all you should answer. How far away were you, where exactly was it, did you see any other rams, see any ewes, where was your buddy when you fired etc, are all investigative questions that can turn you into a poacher in no time.
To the OP, ask Ken what he tells a F&W officer when questioned.
I have unfortunately found myself being rail roaded on a sheep hunt. I am the most honest guy you’ll meet, and I answered every question asked, as the officer just seemed friendly and a fellow hunter. I was then charged on the final day of a 2 year statue of limitations. Everything i said was turned into some bizarre theory of me waisting meat on the sheep. They never attended the scene. I luckily had photos, videos and eye witnesses. But it still really bumbed me out being framed. I have no love for these guys.
Even after charges were withdrawn, i wrote MLA’s, minister, managers of F&W offices and eventually an investigation was launched against the officer.
The district manager assigned the case was decent. He was going to fly up and meet me for an interview but after we talked on the phone and I sent all my evidence, and told my story how the Officer handled it all, he ended it there.
I eventually received a letter stating that the officers actions were wrong and that internal discipline would be brought forth. Whatever that means.
I now answer no questions that seem just friendly banter, just yes and no. Or that I have 48 hrs before being required to make a statement if your charging me. That was the one and only time I had a run in with them in 45 years of hunting. This measuring fiasco was likely designed exactly how they wanted it!

Athabasca1 · #**130** 10-10-2019, 12:15 PM

I did not state that you are required to provide a GPS location of the kill site. My post was in response to the posts by Gear guy and MooseRiverTrapper where they stated they had trouble marking a X for the location of the kill site. I stated a possible solution to avoid that issue. Continue on with whatever you do, no problem.

Gear guy · #**131** 10-10-2019, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athabasca1

Possible solution to avoid the "gotcha" element of exact location. It would entail carrying extra gear but you could carry a hand held GPS unit. Set the way point of the kill site with the latitude and longitude coordinates and save the way point on the unit. You could mark the way point on the map provided in the regulations as the perimeter of the provided map has the longitude and latitude degrees indicated. If they want you to use goggle maps on their computer you can enter the saved latitude and longitude coordinates in the search menu and they will be indicated on the google map. If it was me I would have both the marked up map provided in the regulations in hand and a printed copy of the marked up goggle maps in hand when I went to register the ram.

Last thing I want to do is be that specific on my location. They are not entitled to it either.
Too many fish cops passing info around on locations of kills to their friends and last thing I need is more people in areas I am in.

Full Curl Earl · #**132** 10-10-2019, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athabasca1

I did not state that you are required to provide a GPS location of the kill site. My post was in response to the posts by Gear guy and MooseRiverTrapper where they stated they had trouble marking a X for the location of the kill site. I stated a possible solution to avoid that issue. Continue on with whatever you do, no problem.

Continue on with whatever you do, no problem.[/QUOTE]
Um ok, Thank you?

Gear guy · #**133** 10-10-2019, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Full Curl Earl

Nowhere does it state you must GPS your kill location! Or even tell them where in the zone. I just say 444, and when they as where and to draw an X on the spot, I make a big X that covers the zone. If there are no zones shown, I just say in 444. I refuse to answer any questions at all, as thise questions are about the officer jammung you up. There is no Biological benefit to knowing which drainage.
There are plenty of F&W Officers that sheep hunt. Giving away your hard earned spot is not a requirement.
Answering questions other than the date of kill and zone, are all you should answer. How far away were you, where exactly was it, did you see any other rams, see any ewes, where was your buddy when you fired etc, are all investigative questions that can turn you into a poacher in no time.
To the OP, ask Ken what he tells a F&W officer when questioned.
I have unfortunately found myself being rail roaded on a sheep hunt. I am the most honest guy you’ll meet, and I answered every question asked, as the officer just seemed friendly and a fellow hunter. I was then charged on the final day of a 2 year statue of limitations. Everything i said was turned into some bizarre theory of me waisting meat on the sheep. They never attended the scene. I luckily had photos, videos and eye witnesses. But it still really bumbed me out being framed. I have no love for these guys.
Even after charges were withdrawn, i wrote MLA’s, minister, managers of F&W offices and eventually an investigation was launched against the officer.
The district manager assigned the case was decent. He was going to fly up and meet me for an interview but after we talked on the phone and I sent all my evidence, and told my story how the Officer handled it all, he ended it there.
I eventually received a letter stating that the officers actions were wrong and that internal discipline would be brought forth. Whatever that means.
I now answer no questions that seem just friendly banter, just yes and no. Or that I have 48 hrs before being required to make a statement if your charging me. That was the one and only time I had a run in with them in 45 years of hunting. This measuring fiasco was likely designed exactly how they wanted it!

Every sheep I kill I take pictures of the carcasses and bullet impacts and how much meat is of no use from things like bullet holes. I take pics of meat packed up ready to be headed home as well in the pack. I had the same situation as the amount of meat taken as you when I was 15 on my first rams and interegated for 3 hrs over it. There is not as much meat on them as one would think especially with a hole or 2 in a bad spot.

Full Curl Earl · #**134** 10-10-2019, 03:20 PM

Im anal about taking deboned pics as well now. They saved my azz.
I was also fortunate that I had a few small medallions i found burried in my freezer. I was accused of cutting off the head and cape and leaving the animal to waste! The most putrid of all poaching charges in my opinion. The whole experience Still Sickens me! Some folks are going to say, “well, you must have done something wrong!” But nope, everything was fabricated for reasons beyond my knowledge. Film your kills as though you will be on trial with the footage folks.
Best of luck to the OP and others. I will send a few dollars once your organized as well.

Family Hunter · #**135** 10-10-2019, 03:44 PM

So where have guys had good or normal experiences with the new Jig ??

bonedogg · #**136** 10-10-2019, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Family Hunter

So where have guys had good or normal experiences with the new Jig ??

My experience in Cochrane last week was good. They let me be present for the whole deal. Even have pics of it in the jig. I can see where it could go sideways though....good luck to the posters on getting them rams back if they can? they definitely used the eyeball on mine as that's where the jig is set.

Gear guy · #**137** 10-10-2019, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bonedogg

My experience in Cochrane last week was good. They let me be present for the whole deal. Even have pics of it in the jig. I can see where it could go sideways though....good luck to the posters on getting them rams back if they can? they definitely used the eyeball on mine as that's where the jig is set.

Seems like some offices "get it" and some don't as to where the line is and interpreted by hunters and the Regs....
It has always been different and a pucker factor taking in a squeeker ram and not knowing on what way you will be scrutinized

heretohunt · #**138** 10-11-2019, 09:02 AM

One would think with all the fear, trouble, costs and anxiety over short sheep plus the loss of animals, there would be a mandatory course where they show you how the jig works and a few rams that are both legal and illegal plus a video of judging before you can qualify to get a trophy sheep tag.
Why all of the secrecy?
I have passed on a number of rams that were squeakers or were close. I suspect that some of them were shot later that season. Walking away from that situation sucks.
This year I found what looks like a good ram and then spoke to a hunter who went up there and checked it and wasn’t sure. He said another group of walked up and checked and determined not to shoot it. Then another guy went up there and killed it. Damn crappy experience. Everyone had excellent optics and seemed like seasoned hunters.

Hogie135 · #**139** 10-11-2019, 10:44 AM

This is why I don't hunt sheep. Seems like a lot of hassle putting in all the time that you folks do to hunting them, only to be worried about being charged in the end.

alpineguy · #**140** 10-12-2019, 04:36 PM

Sheep hunting is a lot of planning, work, strategy and hassle but that’s exactly why I do it.
We took our sheep camp in last week and are headed back for the hunt this Friday. Tons of effort already expended and only a sheep hunter understands why we do it.
I have been fortunate to harvest Rams (2) which were well beyond the minimum requirement and have no intentions on pulling the trigger on a squeaker at this point.
At 57 this may be the last sheep hunt due to the stresses on my body but 1 thing which would never make me quit is rule changes and ambiguity regarding them. Be on the safe side and there will be no issues. The experience of sheep hunting for me has been beyond any other type of hunting I have ever had even on the unsuccessful trips. I am grateful to have had the opportunity.

ram crazy · #**141** 10-13-2019, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alpineguy

Sheep hunting is a lot of planning, work, strategy and hassle but that’s exactly why I do it.
We took our sheep camp in last week and are headed back for the hunt this Friday. Tons of effort already expended and only a sheep hunter understands why we do it.
I have been fortunate to harvest Rams (2) which were well beyond the minimum requirement and have no intentions on pulling the trigger on a squeaker at this point.
At 57 this may be the last sheep hunt due to the stresses on my body but 1 thing which would never make me quit is rule changes and ambiguity regarding them. Be on the safe side and there will be no issues. The experience of sheep hunting for me has been beyond any other type of hunting I have ever had even on the unsuccessful trips. I am grateful to have had the opportunity.

Well you better enjoy it as this may be the last year you can buy a general tag!

bdub · #**142** 10-13-2019, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ram crazy

Well you better enjoy it as this may be the last year you can buy a general tag!

Why do you say that?

Family Hunter · #**143** 10-13-2019, 08:15 AM

^^^^^^^^^
What he said
Why ???

ram crazy · #**144** 10-13-2019, 08:25 AM

The government is pushing real hard to put it on draw for the province. I know a guy who’s been sitting in on the meetings. You could see it as soon as next year!

OL_JR · #**145** 10-13-2019, 08:40 AM

https://www.afga.org/conference-resolutions/

Looks like the AFGA is pushing for it as a "well if you're going to do something" rather than full curl. Time to get the letters going again. Little dissapointed in the AFGA.

You'll have to scroll down to the 2019 responses

Pathfinder76 · #**146** 10-13-2019, 08:43 AM

I’ve never not been disappointed in the AFGA.

Ram94 · #**147** 10-13-2019, 09:46 AM

Would someone be able to quote what it says in the 2019 Resolutions? I can’t seem to open the website.

Wrongside · #**148** 10-13-2019, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alpineguy

Sheep hunting is a lot of planning, work, strategy and hassle but that’s exactly why I do it.
We took our sheep camp in last week and are headed back for the hunt this Friday. Tons of effort already expended and only a sheep hunter understands why we do it.
I have been fortunate to harvest Rams (2) which were well beyond the minimum requirement and have no intentions on pulling the trigger on a squeaker at this point.
At 57 this may be the last sheep hunt due to the stresses on my body but 1 thing which would never make me quit is rule changes and ambiguity regarding them. Be on the safe side and there will be no issues. The experience of sheep hunting for me has been beyond any other type of hunting I have ever had even on the unsuccessful trips. I am grateful to have had the opportunity.

I agree. It'd take a lot to make me stop sheephunting. But the system does seem a bit messed up right now.

Good luck out there! Look forward to a story and pictures!

ram crazy · #**149** 10-13-2019, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wrongside

I agree. It'd take a lot to make me stop sheephunting. But the system does seem a bit messed up right now.

Good luck out there! Look forward to a story and pictures!

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the way sheep hunting is run right now!

bdub · #**150** 10-13-2019, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ram94

Would someone be able to quote what it says in the 2019 Resolutions? I can’t seem to open the website.

Sure, copy and pasted from the PDF.

BE IT RESOLVED THAT the Alberta Fish and Game Association request that if the Government of Alberta determines that, in addition to action on predator management and habitat enhancement, it is necessary to reduce harvest of mature bighorn rams, that the option of a draw system be used as it is the fairest way to distribute the available harvest when demand exceeds supply of a limited resource; CARRIED with 6 opposed (approximately 95.1%)

BRIEF: Much discussion within the hunting community has failed to yield a consensus as to whether a reduction in harvest of mature rams is necessary for the health of our Bighorn Sheep resources, and if so how to achieve it. A province wide "full curl" rule is favored by some as a means of preserving the best genetics, but if the "genetic harm" theory promoted by some biologists has any validity in an open population such as our bighorn sheep herds, a full curl rule would further exacerbate "genetic harm" as harvest would be directed at narrower range of horn types. Further, many rams would succumb to winter kill, predation, or other causes without ever being legal to harvest, which is a waste of the resource, and in many sheep ranges the opportunity to harvest a "legal" ram would be near zero.

AEP RESPONSE: Alberta Environment and Parks (AEP) recognizes this recommendation and will consider it in discussions if it becomes necessary to reduce harvest of bighorn sheep rams in the future. Currently, sheep populations are stable in Alberta and the number of rams harvested remains at approximately 150 per year. Fewer rams on the landscape, however, are getting to older ages and size classes as they are harvested once they reach legal size. Future discussions with Albertans will also need to consider tools and potential options in managing harvesting opportunities and increasing the age class and size of rams on the landscape.

https://www.afga.org/wp-content/uplo...n.response.pdf