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  #31  
Old 09-27-2019, 09:50 PM
Gear guy Gear guy is offline
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Dave it is a huge problem with aging. With mine one thing they didn't count is the broomed off portion which was at least a year and a half. I have aged a lot of sheep and they gave mine 8 years old. I had him at 10 with the missing portions. I have other rams that have been registered with less years than I thought they should be given as well. This just proves our age class getting shot are higher than what is on paper and it is not right.
And Dave I have no idea why you would think yours did not fit the jig? They all do as long as that bottom jaw is off. I suspect you had a rookie dealing with you and was the reason a bio was not present as they are all suppose to now from what I was told.

Bdub- the dark portion may have been the past......like I said officers had all kinds of thoughts of where to measure from and I think that is why this new jig. There is no question on where the line is drawn from now except some may still use the eyeball but like mine some are using the eye socket just like days in the past with some officers when presented with a caped sheep. Now that they all need to be caped I suspect more of this eye socket business will happen.
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  #32  
Old 09-27-2019, 10:05 PM
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And Dave I have no idea why you would think yours did not fit the jig? They all do as long as that bottom jaw is off. I suspect you had a rookie dealing with you and was the reason a bio was not present as they are all suppose to now from what I was told.


GG: I saw for myself that the ram did not fit the jig. As you can see in the pic, the mandible is off. The CO tried several times it did not fit, so he defaulted to the square.

As for a rookie CO, he is a sheep hunter with at least 20 years on me. Stand up guy.


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  #33  
Old 09-27-2019, 10:31 PM
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Dave it is a huge problem with aging. With mine one thing they didn't count is the broomed off portion which was at least a year and a half. I have aged a lot of sheep and they gave mine 8 years old. I had him at 10 with the missing portions. I have other rams that have been registered with less years than I thought they should be given as well. This just proves our age class getting shot are higher than what is on paper and it is not right.
And Dave I have no idea why you would think yours did not fit the jig? They all do as long as that bottom jaw is off. I suspect you had a rookie dealing with you and was the reason a bio was not present as they are all suppose to now from what I was told.

Bdub- the dark portion may have been the past......like I said officers had all kinds of thoughts of where to measure from and I think that is why this new jig. There is no question on where the line is drawn from now except some may still use the eyeball but like mine some are using the eye socket just like days in the past with some officers when presented with a caped sheep. Now that they all need to be caped I suspect more of this eye socket business will happen.

Not legally defining the "Eye" point of measurement is soon going to result in a court case. I suspect F&W may be waiting for the courts to do what should be their work.

Were annuli measurements taken?

F&W is also going to have a data reconciliation problem when aggregating yearly growth measurements.

Ignoring brooming, broomed off annuli, or simply getting the age wrong on rams will distort the data into an unusable mess.

They have been advised of these concerns for years now....
And here we are.
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  #34  
Old 09-28-2019, 12:14 AM
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Dave it is a huge problem with aging. With mine one thing they didn't count is the broomed off portion which was at least a year and a half. I have aged a lot of sheep and they gave mine 8 years old. I had him at 10 with the missing portions. I have other rams that have been registered with less years than I thought they should be given as well. This just proves our age class getting shot are higher than what is on paper and it is not right.
And Dave I have no idea why you would think yours did not fit the jig? They all do as long as that bottom jaw is off. I suspect you had a rookie dealing with you and was the reason a bio was not present as they are all suppose to now from what I was told.

Bdub- the dark portion may have been the past......like I said officers had all kinds of thoughts of where to measure from and I think that is why this new jig. There is no question on where the line is drawn from now except some may still use the eyeball but like mine some are using the eye socket just like days in the past with some officers when presented with a caped sheep. Now that they all need to be caped I suspect more of this eye socket business will happen.
I would like to see a good pic of your ram, I don’t understand how aging them can be that difficult. Especially if you have the ram in hand. I can see being off a year if you are going by a photo but not if you can examine it in person. I just don’t get it. As for the eye socket thing being the point of reference, I have to ask then why do they require the eyeball to remain in skull for registration. That makes no sense either. From my experience with a few rams in both Alberta and BC they have been pretty accurate so far for aging. I don’t really believe it is a huge problem. Maybe the odd ram thats miss aged but I don’t believe the numbers could be significant. And the ones that are miss aged are probably older sheep, not the younger stuff.
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  #35  
Old 09-28-2019, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by dave99 View Post
GG: I saw for myself that the ram did not fit the jig. As you can see in the pic, the mandible is off. The CO tried several times it did not fit, so he defaulted to the square.

As for a rookie CO, he is a sheep hunter with at least 20 years on me. Stand up guy.


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All sheep will fit in the jig. Just because he has 20 on you doesn’t make him know what he’s doing. Obviously he didn’t know the policy of having a bio in the room at the time of registration. Even using this jig you could have 10 different officers use the jig and have 10 different outcomes, they can’t even get the aging right.
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  #36  
Old 09-28-2019, 08:37 AM
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Hey guys, maybe I missed it above but if the requirement is to provide the head caped but the eyeball intact my guess would be it's because they are using the eyeball not the eye socket as a reference point. It would be easier to measure to the eye socket if the eye was removed wouldn't it?
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  #37  
Old 09-28-2019, 08:43 AM
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This also makes me think it's actually the eyeball as stated above.

Trophy Sheep - A male bighorn sheep with horns, one of which is of sufficient size that a straight line drawn from the most anterior point of the base of the horn to the tip of the horn extends beyond the anterior edge of the eye when viewed in profile

No where in the description from this year's regs does it state that it's the eye socket or bony portion of the eye.
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  #38  
Old 09-28-2019, 08:52 AM
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This also makes me think it's actually the eyeball as stated above.

Trophy Sheep - A male bighorn sheep with horns, one of which is of sufficient size that a straight line drawn from the most anterior point of the base of the horn to the tip of the horn extends beyond the anterior edge of the eye when viewed in profile

No where in the description from this year's regs does it state that it's the eye socket or bony portion of the eye.
It is the eyeball that they are going by, but there is a difference from the front of the eyeball with the cape on as opposed to the cape off. It could be a half inch difference between the two where the line goes through at the horn.
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  #39  
Old 09-28-2019, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by alpineguy View Post
Hey guys, maybe I missed it above but if the requirement is to provide the head caped but the eyeball intact my guess would be it's because they are using the eyeball not the eye socket as a reference point. It would be easier to measure to the eye socket if the eye was removed wouldn't it?


X2

Further to this, the Sheep changes listed on the brochure that was linked would certainly not show a 4/5 sheep with the jig lined up to the anterior-most portion of the eyeball if they were looking to prosecute any ram that fell short of the eye socket measurement. See pic:









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  #40  
Old 09-28-2019, 09:12 AM
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Totally agree ^^^^^
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  #41  
Old 09-28-2019, 09:17 AM
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On our sheep this year they couldn't use the jig as we still had the lower jaw on (we had no idea). They used the square instead. The EYE SOCKET was used as the reference point. I'll need Hugenuge's permission to post the picture from F&W.
One thing to keep in mind in once the animal is caped, you do get more anterior portion of horn exposed, therefore cancelling out somewhat the effect of using the eye socket instead of eyeball.

What bothers me about this whole fiasco is the wording in the regs: "visible" and "eyeball". "Visible" to me would mean "what I can see while the ram is alive". We studied our sheep at 40 yards for 20 minutes before pulling the trigger to make sure. It's not an easy thing to do at the best of conditions (like we had). The wording needs to be 10000000% clear on what we need to look at. I am sorry but I cannot see a caped sheep on the hoof, nor his hairless anterior horn and eye socket. Hats off to whoever can accomplish that. It's ridiculous and very confusing.
My guess is someone will win a court case over this mess at some point soon. Needs to be crystal clear.
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  #42  
Old 09-28-2019, 01:58 PM
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I can understand using the jig to get things 100 percent as close as we can. My issue is with taking the cape off the head and measuring that way. As pointed above with the eye socket and 4/5 rams. Full curl rams are my question though, how does the jig determine where the exact center of the nostril is on a full curl ram? Maybe someone that has registered a full curl with this jig can tell him. I’ve mounted a lot of sheep and the center of the nostril is never in the exact spot in relation to the roof of the mount like shown in the jig. Some and higher and some are lower. Some have bigger faces than others so I’m not sure how this jig can be accurate for full curl, when we are using the center of the nostril to field judge?
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  #43  
Old 09-28-2019, 02:44 PM
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I can understand using the jig to get things 100 percent as close as we can. My issue is with taking the cape off the head and measuring that way. As pointed above with the eye socket and 4/5 rams. Full curl rams are my question though, how does the jig determine where the exact center of the nostril is on a full curl ram? Maybe someone that has registered a full curl with this jig can tell him. I’ve mounted a lot of sheep and the center of the nostril is never in the exact spot in relation to the roof of the mount like shown in the jig. Some and higher and some are lower. Some have bigger faces than others so I’m not sure how this jig can be accurate for full curl, when we are using the center of the nostril to field judge?
The end of the nose bone is always in the same location. The roof of the mouth which on the underside of skull is the same on all sheep. That’s why if you have a full curl ram that is close, you are better off removing the cape as this moves the center of the nostril down a bit.
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  #44  
Old 09-28-2019, 05:23 PM
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The end of the nose bone is always in the same location. The roof of the mouth which on the underside of skull is the same on all sheep. That’s why if you have a full curl ram that is close, you are better off removing the cape as this moves the center of the nostril down a bit.
So when field judging you disregard the eye position and follow the line to nostril and horn base ?
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  #45  
Old 09-28-2019, 05:34 PM
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So when field judging you disregard the eye position and follow the line to nostril and horn base ?
Full-Curl Trophy Sheep*- A male bighorn sheep with horns, one of which is of sufficient size that when viewed in profile, its tip extends upward beyond a straight line drawn from the rear-most point of the base of the horn to the centre of the nostril.
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Old 09-28-2019, 09:35 PM
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So when field judging you disregard the eye position and follow the line to nostril and horn base ?
That is correct! The eye has absolutely nothing to do with a full curl. And the more wedged a ram is on the backs of the horns the quicker it comes into the full curl.
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  #47  
Old 09-28-2019, 10:46 PM
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Glad to hear your story Wildwoods as it sounds about the same to mine. Also noted is it still differs from one place to the next and who does the registering. It's not right! If some are going from the eye socket then it needs to be stated in the regs. It's not and yes there will be court cases over this but I hate to say it nothing will change and the average joe blow hunter will be fighting legal battles that don't need to happen.
And Dave99 I still don't get how you can't fit the head in a jig with the lower jaw removed. Makes no sense to me.
Bdub You are right on the aging and a year can be missed which I can understand but this is the 3rd broomed ram I have shot and none of them were given years for the broomed portions missing. So on this latest ram I have it is missing I think at least a year on the broom part and another one that they did not give him. It hurts us as hunters with these lower numbers as it is used against us when they want to shut down sheep hunting or turn it into a complete draw or go to full curl only because they say we shoot young rams on average. Walking buffalo gets it!
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  #48  
Old 09-29-2019, 08:06 AM
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They aged my ram at 9.5 yrs. and we think it’s 10.5 yrs. the bio also had my ram at 39.5” and 38” on horn length with 16.2” bases.
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  #49  
Old 09-29-2019, 08:11 AM
wildwoods wildwoods is offline
 
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Here’s the ram. You can clearly see they used the eye socket. So frustrating.


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  #50  
Old 09-29-2019, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by wildwoods View Post
Here’s the ram. You can clearly see they used the eye socket. So frustrating.


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You should have left the cape on then this wouldn’t have happened, and before you say it say to remove the cape you only half read the instructions of what has to be done when getting it registered. It also tells you to remove the lower jaw bone which you didn’t, so you may as well of left the cape on. Because it obvious that the co didn’t know what he was doing as well!
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  #51  
Old 09-29-2019, 08:32 AM
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You should have left the cape on then this wouldn’t have happened, and before you say it say to remove the cape you only half read the instructions of what has to be done when getting it registered. It also tells you to remove the lower jaw bone which you didn’t, so you may as well of left the cape on. Because it obvious that the co didn’t know what he was doing as well!
This is not my ram nor did I register it. I haven’t even looked at what’s required. You’re taking this out of context. The only point I’m making is the way this ram was measured does not stack up to how the Regs read.
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  #52  
Old 09-29-2019, 08:38 AM
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I just looked it up now:

Mandatory removal of cape and lower jaw
It is also a legal requirement that the lower jaw and cape be removed, and that the eye be intact. If a ram is delivered that is not caped, the sheep will be refused and hunters will have to return at a later date to deliver the caped sheep. A sheep with cape on and lower jaw present cannot be placed in the jig.
A hunter may choose to have a taxidermist remove the cape to meet the registration requirements, rather than removing it themselves. Some taxidermists may request a hunter provide them a bill of lading to grant the taxidermist permission to take possession of unregistered (unplugged) sheep. The hunter should ensure that while the taxidermist is removing the cape that they do not alter the skull and eye, or prepare it for taxidermy before its registered.

My buddy didn’t get the lower jaw removed (I’m sure he wasn’t aware). It could have been easily done on site if they needed it there so obviously the CO was clueless as well. Also why do they need the “eye” intact if they aren’t even using it?
This sheep was caped by a professional taxidermist (a highly recommended one for sheep in Alberta) and he did not remove the lower jaw either so obviously an oversight there as well.


But again that’s not the point.
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  #53  
Old 09-29-2019, 09:31 AM
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The eye is to remain intact because they are supposed to use it to determine if the ram is legal.
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  #54  
Old 09-29-2019, 09:40 AM
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The eye is to remain intact because they are supposed to use it to determine if the ram is legal.
They only use the eye for 4/5 ram.
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  #55  
Old 09-29-2019, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by wildwoods View Post
I just looked it up now:

Mandatory removal of cape and lower jaw
It is also a legal requirement that the lower jaw and cape be removed, and that the eye be intact. If a ram is delivered that is not caped, the sheep will be refused and hunters will have to return at a later date to deliver the caped sheep. A sheep with cape on and lower jaw present cannot be placed in the jig.
A hunter may choose to have a taxidermist remove the cape to meet the registration requirements, rather than removing it themselves. Some taxidermists may request a hunter provide them a bill of lading to grant the taxidermist permission to take possession of unregistered (unplugged) sheep. The hunter should ensure that while the taxidermist is removing the cape that they do not alter the skull and eye, or prepare it for taxidermy before its registered.

My buddy didn’t get the lower jaw removed (I’m sure he wasn’t aware). It could have been easily done on site if they needed it there so obviously the CO was clueless as well. Also why do they need the “eye” intact if they aren’t even using it?
This sheep was caped by a professional taxidermist (a highly recommended one for sheep in Alberta) and he did not remove the lower jaw either so obviously an oversight there as well.


But again that’s not the point.
Was this ram even taken to one of the 17 offices that register sheep, because they were supposedly all trained in what to do with the jig and having a bio present.
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  #56  
Old 09-29-2019, 11:45 AM
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They only use the eye for 4/5 ram.
And 95% of the zones are 4/5 zones. Retaining the eye does not negatively affect measuring a full curl ram in any way.

As someone that deals with legal requirements and legal writ on an almost daily basis, simple is better. The reality is, as legal matters go, this is a pretty rudimentary and simple activity and requirement. Let’s not over complicate things or worry about things that don’t matter.

It is better that all rams retain their eye than to have wording introduced to complicate things. With simple wording and regulations that we have now, the ram pictured above did not only retain its jaw in contradiction to outlined simple regulation but it also appears to have been tagged incorrectly.

Is this a big deal? In my eyes, no. But less is far more with most things in life.
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  #57  
Old 09-29-2019, 12:00 PM
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My thought would be if they are using the eye socket with the regs reading as they do, it won't be long before there is a court challenge.........then it will be cleared up 1 way or the other.
Very wishy washy guidelines but as stated previously it's best to be on the safe side when pulling the trigger.
3 more weeks and maybe I will get the chance to have another ram measured!!
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  #58  
Old 09-29-2019, 02:23 PM
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I was also told by officers in 2 different locations that they are now going by the bony indent at the front of the socket. I expressed my concern about the disconnect with this method and what the Regs state. Will be interesting to hear how many court cases Alberta will lose over this.
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  #59  
Old 09-30-2019, 08:57 AM
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Here’s the ram. You can clearly see they used the eye socket. So frustrating.


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Agreed, clear as day they're going off the eye socket and not the eye.

Looking at that pamphlet for the measuring jig, is it just me or does it look like they're putting the square touching the eye ever so slightly. Would this not also be incorrect and inconsistent from what others have witnessed.

Would it not make more sense to have the square go from the bases to the horn tip and then ensure you can view the eye. That's exactly how you would be judging in the field. So in my opinion it would make sense that the bios and CO's would attempt to verify legality in a way similar to what hunters would be looking at in the field.
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  #60  
Old 10-07-2019, 04:25 PM
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got mine measured today, its the eyeball.
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