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  #271  
Old 10-14-2019, 04:34 PM
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bessiedog bessiedog is offline
 
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So your fine with ‘freeloading’ in the name of ‘rights’...?

That’s an asinine idea and your languishing on other people’s effort. That’s distasteful to me.
If more people like you ‘choose’ not to, then herd immunity goes away... kinda like welfare fraudsters... they don’t break the system.... yet....,
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  #272  
Old 10-14-2019, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by bossmansteve View Post
My only conclusion is that aluminum adjuvants are poorly understood, not tested, and now shown to accumulate aluminum, a neurotoxin, in the body, including the brain. Based on that, I choose to avoid vaccines until further research is done. People have hypothesized that aluminum adjuvants could be linked to autism, allergies, etc. These are unstudied hypotheses, not proven or disproven, but plausible.
Would you vaccinate your kids for.

H influenzae type b.
chickenpox,
Shingles live zoster (Zostavax),
measles,
mumps & rubella (MMR),
meningococcal (Menactra, Menveo),
rotavirus,
seasonal influenza (except Fluad),
single antigen polio (IPOL),
yellow fever
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  #273  
Old 10-14-2019, 07:02 PM
raab raab is offline
 
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Originally Posted by bessiedog View Post
So your fine with ‘freeloading’ in the name of ‘rights’...?

That’s an asinine idea and your languishing on other people’s effort. That’s distasteful to me.
If more people like you ‘choose’ not to, then herd immunity goes away... kinda like welfare fraudsters... they don’t break the system.... yet....,
Except I am vaccinated, because I could voluntarily make the choice. You seem to miss the fact that making it mandatory could reduce the number of people who are vaccinated. There’s literally nothing to gain by making it mandatory and everything to lose. Especially when you consider there will be NO reduction in outbreaks. As I said I’m not property of the Canadian government, and I will not allow the government to dictate what they can inject me with for various reasons. I can also guarantee you I’m not the only person who feels this way because the dominant religion in this country warns against receiving something that restricts your ability to buy and sell.
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  #274  
Old 10-15-2019, 01:21 AM
bossmansteve bossmansteve is offline
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Originally Posted by Scott h View Post
Zero proof of your autism claim.
I haven't made any autism claim. Maybe you should re-read my post as you clearly didn't understand something.

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Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post
Would you vaccinate your kids for.

H influenzae type b.
chickenpox,
Shingles live zoster (Zostavax),
measles,
mumps & rubella (MMR),
meningococcal (Menactra, Menveo),
rotavirus,
seasonal influenza (except Fluad),
single antigen polio (IPOL),
yellow fever
No because I generally mistrust vaccines. I don't trust the government or pharmaceutical companies to ensure they are safe. Easier just to accept the risk of these mostly-minor diseases.
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  #275  
Old 10-15-2019, 02:36 AM
bossmansteve bossmansteve is offline
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I need another research piece.... the company publisher of your scientific journal Frontiets SA seems to have a continual problem of not rejecting papers..... AKA non sufficient peer review mechanism.

Your making a ‘informed decision’ based on peer reviewed science..... this paper imma reading may not have been properly scrutinized for proper scientific review.

Imma gon need more credible research to see if I’m ok with your making an informed decision bout your kids health..... and by default my kid.

Please note I’m not saying you’d wrong... but it would really suck if you were making a decision based solely on just this research bit.

There seems to be wayyy more research in support of immunizations.
Based on the wikipedia article, I will say Frontiers in Neurobiology isn't the best source. However, the article that I linked was mostly just a summary of other articles from various other peer-reviewed journals. The points made in that article, are points I've read in many others:
- That we don't fully understand how aluminum adjuvants actually work.
- That their safety is not well tested.
- That there is newer evidence that aluminum stays in the body way longer than was previously thought and can accumulate in brain and other parts.

Here are some other articles you may want to glance at:

Do aluminum vaccine adjuvants contribute to the rising prevalence of autism?

The putative role of environmental aluminium in the development of chronic neuropathology in adults and children. How strong is the evidence and what could be the mechanisms involved?

Immunoexcitotoxicity as the central mechanism of etiopathology and treatment of autism spectrum disorders: A possible role of fluoride and aluminum

Safety of aluminum adjuvants seems to be an active, ongoing area of study over the last decade. Which is good. But I'd rather not have my children as guinea pigs for this study.

Have you seen any interesting research indicating that aluminum adjuvants are in fact safe? I haven't seen anything that looked at the long-term effects on aluminum adjuvants in infants.

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Originally Posted by bessiedog View Post
Your ‘thousands of annecdotal stories by parents’..... sorry.. annecdotals don’t cut it much for me. Lots of annecdotals about gettin probed by aliens out there too. Don’t see you buyin that idea...
Agreed. However, the guy I was replying to said there wasn't even a hint that there could be a link with autism. To me, a large amount of anecdotal evidence is a "hint" that requires further study.

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Originally Posted by bessiedog View Post
I’m going to believe the CDC before your stuff so far.
More credible research please.
Does the CDC have any research at all about the safety of aluminum adjuvants? I've heard that they used to link a single study by Mitkus which has been heavily criticized, and was removed from the CDC's website in 2017.

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Originally Posted by bessiedog View Post
Much bigger things to be scared of.... like that UN!!!!!
The UN who are hugely pro-vaccines, lol. Vaccines fit right into their agenda.
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  #276  
Old 10-15-2019, 09:08 AM
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Sundancefisher Sundancefisher is offline
 
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I haven't made any autism claim. Maybe you should re-read my post as you clearly didn't understand something.


No because I generally mistrust vaccines. I don't trust the government or pharmaceutical companies to ensure they are safe. Easier just to accept the risk of these mostly-minor diseases.
Interesting. You say you are knowledgeable however none of these have aluminum adjuvant in them. Also not considered minor if you get it bad. For instance measles can kill...that isn’t minor is it?

You appear to fall into the purely paranoid conspiracy theory type. That the historical data and reems of data proving vaccines are safe and necessary is instantly discounted because of a feeling you get from conspiracy sites you have visited on the internet that have no factual basis for vaccines being a problem.

Just want to be clear in case others reading somehow give any credence to your personal and ill informed opionion.

Sun
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  #277  
Old 10-15-2019, 11:50 AM
AndrewM AndrewM is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post
Interesting. You say you are knowledgeable however none of these have aluminum adjuvant in them. Also not considered minor if you get it bad. For instance measles can kill...that isn’t minor is it?

You appear to fall into the purely paranoid conspiracy theory type. That the historical data and reems of data proving vaccines are safe and necessary is instantly discounted because of a feeling you get from conspiracy sites you have visited on the internet that have no factual basis for vaccines being a problem.

Just want to be clear in case others reading somehow give any credence to your personal and ill informed opionion.

Sun
And he is stubborn at that! Will pick a line or two to answer and respond but doesn't respond to the in depth questions or comments. Hence why I stopped replying. Thanks for picking up the slack. haha
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  #278  
Old 10-15-2019, 12:11 PM
cranky cranky is offline
 
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Over 40% of Albertans dont or wont get flu shots every year.
And its almost the same percentage wise, medical workers including Nurses wont do so either.

Now thats scarey if you think about it. Even amongst those who work at the Stollery, look it up im not making it up thats AHS stats.

If i knew how i would show where i got this info. Sorry Google it yourselves. AHS has stats for all that. Even a breakdown for staff in each hospital in Alberta. etc.

Last edited by cranky; 10-15-2019 at 12:38 PM.
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  #279  
Old 10-15-2019, 12:51 PM
bossmansteve bossmansteve is offline
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Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post
Interesting. You say you are knowledgeable however none of these have aluminum adjuvant in them.
Correct.

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Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post
Also not considered minor if you get it bad. For instance measles can kill...that isn’t minor is it?
Whether something is minor or not is subjective. All kinds of things can kill people. Everyone has to die, eventually, of something or other.

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Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post
You appear to fall into the purely paranoid conspiracy theory type.
You appear to fall in the type that does no research yourself, just trusts authority or popularity and can't stand when other people have a differing opinion.

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Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post
That the historical data and reems of data proving vaccines are safe...
There is nothing proving that vaccines are safe. There are many plausible hypotheses, such as that aluminum adjuvants increase incidence of autism, that haven't been tested.

Historical data shows at least 3 or 4 cases where vaccines were later found not to have been safe. I bet the victims of those cases wish they were "paranoid conspiracy theorists" who had opted out.

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Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post
... you get from conspiracy sites you have visited on the internet that have no factual basis for vaccines being a problem
You have no factual basis for injecting mercury into your eyeballs being a problem. Does that mean you'd do it if .gov asked and call anyone who objects a conspiracy theorist?
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  #280  
Old 10-15-2019, 12:54 PM
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Sundancefisher Sundancefisher is offline
 
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Over 40% of Albertans dont or wont get flu shots every year.
And its almost the same percentage wise, medical workers including Nurses wont do so either.

Now thats scarey if you think about it. Even amongst those who work at the Stollery, look it up im not making it up thats AHS stats.

If i knew how i would show where i got this info. Sorry Google it yourselves. AHS has stats for all that. Even a breakdown for staff in each hospital in Alberta. etc.
Flu shot is not in the same league as measles.

Thing people miss is a flu shot protects against the predicted 3 worst flus. You can still catch another strain. Some people feel they catch the flu after a shot and proves the shot didn’t work. Problem is they don’t know what they are talking about.

Cheers

Sun
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  #281  
Old 10-15-2019, 12:58 PM
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Sundancefisher Sundancefisher is offline
 
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Originally Posted by bossmansteve View Post
Correct.


Whether something is minor or not is subjective. All kinds of things can kill people. Everyone has to die, eventually, of something or other.


You appear to fall in the type that does no research yourself, just trusts authority or popularity and can't stand when other people have a differing opinion.


There is nothing proving that vaccines are safe. There are many plausible hypotheses, such as that aluminum adjuvants increase incidence of autism, that haven't been tested.

Historical data shows at least 3 or 4 cases where vaccines were later found not to have been safe. I bet the victims of those cases wish they were "paranoid conspiracy theorists" who had opted out.


You have no factual basis for injecting mercury into your eyeballs being a problem. Does that mean you'd do it if .gov asked and call anyone who objects a conspiracy theorist?
Wow. Just wow... Your responses furthered my point. You have nothing credible to back up your claims. And yes. There are countless studies on the safety of vaccines and their ability to lengthen the average human lifespan.

You don’t care to look it up...that is your prerogative however the koolaid you are trying to sell is so far from fact that it is just ... well ... mind boggling.

Just in case you are open.

https://www.healthychildren.org/Engl...-Evidence.aspx

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/re...ons/index.html

Happy reading. Should take you a year
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  #282  
Old 10-15-2019, 01:09 PM
bossmansteve bossmansteve is offline
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Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post
Wow. Just wow... Your responses furthered my point. You have nothing credible to back up your claims. And yes. There are countless studies on the safety of vaccines and their ability to lengthen the average human lifespan.

You don’t care to look it up...that is your prerogative however there koolaid you are trying to sell is so far from fact that it is just ... well ... mind boggling.

Just in case you are open.

https://www.healthychildren.org/Engl...-Evidence.aspx

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/re...ons/index.html

Happy reading. Should take you a year
Ctrl+F and search aluminum. Absolutely nothing (other than http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21686546).

We still don't understand how aluminum adjuvants exactly work. But you go ahead and believe they are safe because nobody has studied them to find out otherwise.
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  #283  
Old 10-15-2019, 01:25 PM
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Sundancefisher Sundancefisher is offline
 
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Originally Posted by bossmansteve View Post
Ctrl+F and search aluminum. Absolutely nothing (other than http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21686546).

We still don't understand how aluminum adjuvants exactly work. But you go ahead and believe they are safe because nobody has studied them to find out otherwise.
Again.

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Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post
Would you vaccinate your kids for.

H influenzae type b.
chickenpox,
Shingles live zoster (Zostavax),
measles,
mumps & rubella (MMR),
meningococcal (Menactra, Menveo),
rotavirus,
seasonal influenza (except Fluad),
single antigen polio (IPOL),
yellow fever
None of these have aluminum. So you are okay with these then as aluminum seems your biggest personal fear?
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  #284  
Old 10-15-2019, 01:54 PM
bossmansteve bossmansteve is offline
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Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post
Again.



None of these have aluminum. So you are okay with these then as aluminum seems your biggest personal fear?
Aluminum adjuvants are just one area of concern that I'm highlighting as an example.

A lot more research would need to be done for me to be trustful of vaccines in general.
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  #285  
Old 10-15-2019, 02:17 PM
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Sundancefisher Sundancefisher is offline
 
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Aluminum adjuvants are just one area of concern that I'm highlighting as an example.

A lot more research would need to be done for me to be trustful of vaccines in general.
Your bait and switch arguments are more and more intriguing as to what you are thinking.

I provided you with reems of studies showing vaccines are safe. Life expectancy skyrocketed with their development. Many diseases are life threatening or disabling. There is no credible research on your points and certainly none on the ones I just showed you again with zero aluminum adjuvant. Then you changed the subject rather than admit your argument flaws.

If I was paranoid I would suggest you are part of a Russian troll farm pushing misinformation in first world countries. Problem is those troll farms have been proven. But...alas I actually figure you lack the scientific understanding to know fiction from non fiction.

That or you are a banned member just popping back to stir trouble.

Your counter responses lack substance.

Cheers

Sun
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  #286  
Old 10-15-2019, 06:26 PM
HighlandHeart HighlandHeart is offline
 
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Your number of 1 death in 100 years is beyond stupid. You must have gotten that from one of your "anti vaccination" sites. An example is someone admitted to ICU and ventilated and their their diagnosis is pneumonia. Never mind that the cause of that pneumonia is measles. I guess in the Jenny Macarthy fan club that doesn't count as a death related to measles.
https://www.cdc.gov/measles/symptoms/complications.html
Actually Raab got that from a Globe and Mail story but he left out the part that explains why measles deaths are so low...

"Put the triumph against measles in Canada into perspective. Without measles vaccine, we would expect about 350,000 cases in Canada each year. Instead, we see a few dozen reported cases. At current rates, Canada can expect to see a death from acute measles about once every hundred years or so. The borderline hysteria, fuelled by the media and public health, that greets a few cases is unwarranted."
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  #287  
Old 10-15-2019, 06:37 PM
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Actually Raab got that from a Globe and Mail story but he left out the part that explains why measles deaths are so low...

"Put the triumph against measles in Canada into perspective. Without measles vaccine, we would expect about 350,000 cases in Canada each year. Instead, we see a few dozen reported cases. At current rates, Canada can expect to see a death from acute measles about once every hundred years or so. The borderline hysteria, fuelled by the media and public health, that greets a few cases is unwarranted."
Oh my god. I am rolling on the floor laughing.
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  #288  
Old 10-15-2019, 07:06 PM
AndrewM AndrewM is offline
 
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Priceless!
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  #289  
Old 10-15-2019, 07:28 PM
bossmansteve bossmansteve is offline
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Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post
I provided you with reems of studies showing vaccines are safe.
That's nice but X number of studies don't prove something is safe. Exhaustive research of all plausible ways it could be unsafe is the only way something is truly proven safe.

I've provided you with at least 1 plausible hypothesis about how most vaccines could be unsafe. Until that hypothesis is studied, we can't honestly say they are safe.

The rest of your post is nonsense.

Beyond that, it's up to each of us to make the personal decision. Would we rather risk measles, or would we rather risk loading our children's brains with aluminum? I've made my choice and I'm sorry you're unhappy with it but you'll just have to suck it up as you cannot force me to vaccinate my children.
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  #290  
Old 10-15-2019, 07:53 PM
raab raab is offline
 
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Originally Posted by HighlandHeart View Post
Actually Raab got that from a Globe and Mail story but he left out the part that explains why measles deaths are so low...

"Put the triumph against measles in Canada into perspective. Without measles vaccine, we would expect about 350,000 cases in Canada each year. Instead, we see a few dozen reported cases. At current rates, Canada can expect to see a death from acute measles about once every hundred years or so. The borderline hysteria, fuelled by the media and public health, that greets a few cases is unwarranted."
Exactly, voluntary vaccinations work, no need to make them mandatory at this time. If someone doesn’t want to vaccinate their kid, their kid will be one of the first to get sick. My point has never been against the effectiveness of vaccines.
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  #291  
Old 10-15-2019, 08:43 PM
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Originally Posted by bossmansteve View Post
That's nice but X number of studies don't prove something is safe. Exhaustive research of all plausible ways it could be unsafe is the only way something is truly proven safe.

I've provided you with at least 1 plausible hypothesis about how most vaccines could be unsafe. Until that hypothesis is studied, we can't honestly say they are safe.

The rest of your post is nonsense.

Beyond that, it's up to each of us to make the personal decision. Would we rather risk measles, or would we rather risk loading our children's brains with aluminum? I've made my choice and I'm sorry you're unhappy with it but you'll just have to suck it up as you cannot force me to vaccinate my children.
You’re not listening nor reading nor understanding there is so much data on history of using vaccines that your premise fails. That is before the reems of studies provided to counter your point saying there wasn’t any.

Your worry about adjuvant was dispelled after I showed all the key ones that don’t use aluminum that studies show are at such low concentrations far below natural background levels in food etc yet you blanket blew it off as not important.

I think you need to see where you can absorb aluminum from natural foods etc. Also I assume you haven’t looked at your deodorant yet. Read the ingredients.

So for anyone reading wanting a take away on are vaccines great, necessary and totally required... yes.

Flu shots are take it or leave it as they are not the same category as say measles.

Cheers and I wish you all the luck with your kids Russian roulette no vaccination strategy
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  #292  
Old 10-15-2019, 08:45 PM
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Exactly, voluntary vaccinations work, no need to make them mandatory at this time. If someone doesn’t want to vaccinate their kid, their kid will be one of the first to get sick. My point has never been against the effectiveness of vaccines.
What would you think if everyone voluntarily opted out?
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  #293  
Old 10-15-2019, 08:46 PM
FCLightning FCLightning is offline
 
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Would we rather risk measles, or would we rather risk loading our children's brains with aluminum?
But the measles vaccine has no aluminum. You make no sense.
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  #294  
Old 10-15-2019, 08:59 PM
raab raab is offline
 
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What would you think if everyone voluntarily opted out?
Then maybe the government should look at it, but I don’t see everyone opting out of something that works. I see no reason to fix something that isn’t broken, and won’t change the number of outbreaks. Especially when you consider your giving the government the legal right to inject you with whatever it sees fit.
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  #295  
Old 10-15-2019, 09:12 PM
bossmansteve bossmansteve is offline
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You’re not listening nor reading nor understanding there is so much data on history of using vaccines that your premise fails.
We didn't start pumping babies full of aluminum adjuvants until about 30 years ago. Hardly a lot of historical data. Coincidentally, autism became a big problem around that same time.

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Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post
That is before the reems of studies provided to counter your point saying there wasn’t any.
Autism vs. aluminum adjuvants hasn't been researched.

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Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post
Your worry about adjuvant was dispelled after I showed all the key ones that don’t use aluminum...
Most vaccines use aluminum adjuvants. There is a recommended vaccine schedule that is full of it.

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Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post
... that studies show are at such low concentrations far below natural background levels in food etc yet you blanket blew it off as not important. I think you need to see where you can absorb aluminum from natural foods etc.
Eating food vs. injecting aluminum into your muscle is very different. Only 0.03% gets absorbed from food.

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Also I assume you haven’t looked at your deodorant yet. Read the ingredients.
Aware, thanks, and I don't use any.
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  #296  
Old 10-15-2019, 09:14 PM
bossmansteve bossmansteve is offline
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But the measles vaccine has no aluminum. You make no sense.
True lol. Try diptheria instead.
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  #297  
Old 10-15-2019, 09:15 PM
martyparty martyparty is offline
 
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Default Vaccines

Vaccines are one of the only proven strategies to prevent significant morbidity and disease by priming our immune systems to attack an invader before it can cause a problem. Otherwise these viruses / bacteria can set up shop before our bodies can fight back as it takes 7-10days for our T-cells to mount an attack on a novel (new) threat that they haven’t been exposed to. Vaccines are merely a minimally toxic exposure so our bodies are primed to attack if they see the real thing.

Drug companies would be better to not have vaccines because we would need to buy more drugs to fight all these entities if vaccines were not a thing.

I don’t like small pox, but its coming back.

I’m not govt, just a guy from Slave Lake who spent a lot of time reading, researching and have a job taking care of people who get hit by lightning.

2cents worth but free world so here it is.
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  #298  
Old 10-16-2019, 09:04 AM
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Sundancefisher Sundancefisher is offline
 
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Originally Posted by bossmansteve View Post
We didn't start pumping babies full of aluminum adjuvants until about 30 years ago. Hardly a lot of historical data. Coincidentally, autism became a big problem around that same time.


Autism vs. aluminum adjuvants hasn't been researched.


Most vaccines use aluminum adjuvants. There is a recommended vaccine schedule that is full of it.


Eating food vs. injecting aluminum into your muscle is very different. Only 0.03% gets absorbed from food.


Aware, thanks, and I don't use any.
You are so fundamentally wrong. Autism wasn’t fully uunderstood including all its various types until then and now it appears recent studies suggest the number is over blown by quite a bit.

You can’t rely on this at all for for argument any longer. Enough studies refute your personal opinion and either you listen or don’t.

You are telling a mistruth again. Aluminum isn’t in any of the key ones I pointed out so you should have no misguided fear remaining. Please stop making things up. It fails the debate test.
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  #299  
Old 10-16-2019, 09:26 AM
AndrewM AndrewM is offline
 
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Originally Posted by raab View Post
Then maybe the government should look at it, but I don’t see everyone opting out of something that works. I see no reason to fix something that isn’t broken, and won’t change the number of outbreaks. Especially when you consider your giving the government the legal right to inject you with whatever it sees fit.
Not arguing that the government should have a legal right to inject you with what they see fit but wanted to point out that there was an outbreak of whooping cough in 2017 and currently one rearing its head again in the Lethbridge area due to the low immunization rates. Locally acquired without travel.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calga...erta-1.5315507
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  #300  
Old 10-16-2019, 11:36 AM
bossmansteve bossmansteve is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post
You are so fundamentally wrong. Autism wasn’t fully uunderstood including all its various types until then and now it appears recent studies suggest the number is over blown by quite a bit.

You can’t rely on this at all for for argument any longer. Enough studies refute your personal opinion and either you listen or don’t.
You haven't posted a single study backing up your claim that "enough studies refute" an autism / aluminum adjuvant relationship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundancefisher View Post
You are telling a mistruth again. Aluminum isn’t in any of the key ones I pointed out so you should have no misguided fear remaining. Please stop making things up. It fails the debate test.
Do you realize there is a standard vaccine schedule which includes many vaccines that do have aluminum adjuvant? Your listing a small number of vaccines that don't have an adjuvant is fairly irrelevant.
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