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  #241  
Old 12-05-2018, 06:08 PM
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No time to play today but just got two more moose reports to add to this years data. Buddy and his Dad, Dad got a big cow 80 yrds bang flop double lung, buddy got a little bull same distance sameshot placement, 20 yrd recovery. Both shoot 270 win, 150 grain.
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  #242  
Old 12-05-2018, 06:11 PM
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[QUOTE=Salavee;3885751]
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Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote View Post
Ya I almost cut and paste the sd and velocity paragraphs but the whole article is correct and accurate. Sure explains why you see lots of pokes holes through ungulates fro magnums loaded for bear so to speak, too fast and too delayed expansion a bullet not matched to game intended. Read overkill. Then you match an impact velocity, adequate sd and more rapid controlled expansion bullet to suit ungulates and voila, much more spectacular performance. Ie my Grendel moose vs the magnum moose killed a few days earlier. First was told about the two first shots through the liver like 1” apart, nice group, dead on feet. But he used those feet for a lot more than mine did. I think a third shot anchored it? Anyway, so did my Grendel, liver was destroyed, think 12 gauge from 6’ feet, 4” of femur destroyed on shot 2, oh and my third anchored also...lifting a few inches of skull plate off and the antler attached to it...looks good on the coffee table. No flies on the Grendel is right but actually it’s no flies on .252 sd at 2430 fps impact velocity with rapid controlled expansion bullet. Spectacular performance imo, 15 yrd recovery vs I can’t remember but other recovery turned out to be further than wanted and got into tough spot and a 2 am get home sort of night. Mine was in truck before lunch time with a pretty lazy start to the morning. What cartridge was better suited? Hmmm

Magnums don’t help, not sure where they do for Alberta hunting?[/QUOTE

Although I don't use one, Magnums do have their place

This "discussion" wasn't about 6.5cm vs magnums anyway. You chose that .300WM comparison.
It had more to do with terminal ballistics, SD and velocity, in particular ,being the only two things to be concerned about. Only uninformed idiots thought different in your opinion. In your explanation(s) you pitted the CM against every cartridge in practically every hunting caliber that can be found.That in itself would cause quite a stir..and rightfully so. All you posted that was correct was old news to most.

.. BTW Bob Nosler had a bullets,energy transfer and penetration thing figured out in the early '50s when he designed the partition. so nothing new there either. Try them and quit worrying about penetration and SD

Bob had the right idea, build a bullet likely to retain as much sd as possible.😉

It’s how we see the same thing lol












,
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****1000 Club****
The Unofficially Official DEER CLUB for BOWHUNTERS.
Any combination of deer species
P&Y measuring standards, Net Inches Only
Meeting the P&Y minimums to qualify
Up to 7 deer totalling 1000" or higher
1k, 2k, 3k levels attainable.

1000 Club w/6, also 700 Muley Club(w/bow), 1 deer away from 2000 Club!
  #243  
Old 12-05-2018, 06:31 PM
Salavee Salavee is offline
 
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[QUOTE=Stinky Coyote;3886244]not too likely
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  #244  
Old 12-05-2018, 06:33 PM
aardvaark aardvaark is offline
 
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Default Here’s a scenario

So my hunting partner this year shot a large wt buck from the front with a 6.5 Creed 147 gr bullet. Distance was approx 100 yds. The bullet went thro the esophagus, and pulverized the spine causing instant death. The bullet did not exit the animal. I did not recover the bullet, it must have stayed in the minced spine somewhere. I butchered the animal and saw the result. But it was a whitetail. I personally find it hard to believe that a 300 WM with identical SD would do identical damage. Personally, I would expect that whitetail to have been virtually decapiated using a 300 WM. Do these numbers prove me wrong?
  #245  
Old 12-05-2018, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by aardvaark View Post
So my hunting partner this year shot a large wt buck from the front with a 6.5 Creed 147 gr bullet. Distance was approx 100 yds. The bullet went thro the esophagus, and pulverized the spine causing instant death. The bullet did not exit the animal. I did not recover the bullet, it must have stayed in the minced spine somewhere. I butchered the animal and saw the result. But it was a whitetail. I personally find it hard to believe that a 300 WM with identical SD would do identical damage. Personally, I would expect that whitetail to have been virtually decapiated using a 300 WM. Do these numbers prove me wrong?
Not necessarily . I shot a cow elk in the neck @ 13 yds a couple of years ago. Bullet took out four inches of spine and didn't exit... 9.3x62 / 270 gr speer /2600 fps. I think the bullet totally disintegrated as I couldn't find a trace of it .. and it didn't blow back. Samples of 1 seldom tell you anything.
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  #246  
Old 12-05-2018, 07:41 PM
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It's fun following along with this thread, kind of off track at times thanks to me for offering the lighter side of stuff you know.

Its awesome that the next generation of firearms are in the market place,,, this means that our old irons will climb in value as they become collector items. Ha

Who though a refurbished WW II M-1 Grand would fetch $5 to 7 G these days,,, a Winchester octagon barrel 30-30 lever action would top that price tag at $10 G.

The world will continue to come out with the latest and greatest for years to come,,, my older friends would like nothing more than to give this stuff a go,,, but there are 2 many factors that prevent this from happening.

Just relax I share with him,,, look at all the old battle scares of the beautiful wood on your stock,,, see that nick in the barrel,,, I remember you telling me about the story when you darn near slipped over the ice edge sheep hunting in 1977,,, I think you slammed that rifle down hard that prevented you from going over that drop off... Mr G were luck that day.

Look at Fred's old unit,,, 100+ years of hunting in that rifle,,, and it's still on the go with his grandson behind the controls,,, maybe the day will come when he buys a new gun as he gives that diamond of a rifle to his son or daughter,,, what a gem it is.

My close friend Terry is humbled to hold possession of my 300 Mag,,, its in some might fine hands,,, kinda like Todd who still uses my old 7x57,,, Stan bought the other one,,, boy,,, those were 2 good shooters.

My hunting partner is still on track with his Remmy Semi auto,,, man,,, has that rifle harvested alot of game beginning in 1967 or was that 69,,, Hummmmm,,, time has slipped me by I guess. Ha

Yuppers, lots to dream about when it comes to the new stuff,,, but it fades away once I head down the cut line with old Bettzy,,, she's pretty accurate for a 30 cal,,, nothing special,,, but it gets the job done.

I was pretty happy on a few of the sight-ins up North this year,,, Ha. The kids must think I shoot way to much,,, that's what its all about I yell at them,,, put in your ear plugs,,, its shooting time.

I could see Carl grin from ear to ear,,, he knew what I was talking about,,, his old weathered hands fit his irons like a glove. He knows this,,, who in Alberta has their name on the Queen's Plate 2 X's,,, and placed 200th in the world's.

Yes,,, hands that aren't as steady as they once were,,, but his eyes still hold the key.

Funny that Carl and Vick both shot fixed up old Lee Enfields custom in the 308 NATO rounds,,, both of them worked free hand with peep hole sights for all those years,,, Ha,,, Cat knows what I'm talking about.

Marksmen with 1/2 if not a 1/3 of what we have today,,, those fellows could shoot the ever changing winds like it was nothing. They are part of the Elite few who could get things done in their day.

Then top it off with some spectacular hunting stories with all to share in.

Both Carl and Vick have covered more ground then I will live to see,,, hopefully the Supreme Bean allows me to at least catch up. Ha.

I guess there's something to be said about all the rifles and cartrages each of us own, they might not be the latest and greatest, maybe they aren't the shinny pony of National match or the world's little lone the state champion units,,,, whoops,,, I mean Provincial.

They are the guns we own,,, they fill our needs, yes,,, we have to put more effort into them then the new stuff,,, but thats part of the fun.

Either change things up, or leave well enough alone,,, at least well enough alone won't cost us a lot money.

I like what I have Carl,,, I know deep down inside that you have a cabinet of irons you will not part with,,, good on you for staying the course.

Yuppers, my good life long friend will rest easy tonight with memories of 80+ years in the competion and Harvesting fields all done with irons that still stand the proven test of time.

Kinda like me i guess,,, to stubborn to change, not wize enough to do it either. Oh well,,, purhaps I get to be my own living Legend in my dreams tonight as I sleep.

Old school 30 cal to hand down to the next generation of brothers and sisters when that time comes,,, very humbling indeed you would think.

By the way, did I mention that I like everything that has something to do with the great outdoors, it's nice to take it on now since the time will come when it becomes more challanging to do this stuff,,, I hope TV is around when I hang up the irons.

Ha
  #247  
Old 12-05-2018, 07:46 PM
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Agree and that’s part of why the topic is fascinating maybe even addicting. You’ll see less than expected from giant slayers and more than expected from pea shooters...more frequently than admitted, or at least observed with intent to keep record. For many dead is dead and that’s enough study for them.
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  #248  
Old 12-05-2018, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote View Post
No time to play today but just got two more moose reports to add to this years data. Buddy and his Dad, Dad got a big cow 80 yrds bang flop double lung, buddy got a little bull same distance sameshot placement, 20 yrd recovery. Both shoot 270 win, 150 grain.
Nice to see your
friends succeed!!!!
  #249  
Old 12-05-2018, 10:01 PM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
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Yes, Bell was a diffently a pro heavy bullet shooter in his later years,,, if he could of done it all over again, he would of picked a larger caliber.

He made it clear in a magazine article published in American Rifleman in 1954 what he would use if he returned to Africa. With his vast experience ivory hunting, he felt he could put his finger on the perfect caliber for the purpose, which he felt was the .318 Westley Richards, or the 8x57mm Mauser. However, if he had to do it all over again with a modern rifle he would choose a Winchester Model 70 in .308 Winchester loaded with homogenous bullets and sighted with a ghost ring rear aperture sight.

He was slightly disappoint in the 7x57 since most of his kills that were more than 1 shot.

He need 1200 shots to put down the first 800 elephants.
  #250  
Old 12-05-2018, 10:47 PM
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Amazing what he did and we could learn from. How the little pea shooters could get it done? I wonder if he knew how important that sd was? It sure wasn’t energy and momentum. It’s was all sd and impact velocity, shot placement and bullet construction a given. He may have been disappointed with 308 if he didn’t run heavy enough bullets to match the sd of what he was used too?
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****1000 Club****
The Unofficially Official DEER CLUB for BOWHUNTERS.
Any combination of deer species
P&Y measuring standards, Net Inches Only
Meeting the P&Y minimums to qualify
Up to 7 deer totalling 1000" or higher
1k, 2k, 3k levels attainable.

1000 Club w/6, also 700 Muley Club(w/bow), 1 deer away from 2000 Club!
  #251  
Old 12-06-2018, 01:58 AM
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300 Win Mag for the win.


It just sounds cooler than.....6.5. End of argument.
  #252  
Old 12-06-2018, 05:36 AM
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Yes, the trick for Bell was to get in close, then attempt to pull off the famous "Bell Shot."

Even he knew he was out gunned since the cartrages of the day didn't have the hp to accomplish clean kills.

Purhaps this is why he would of picked faster heavier bullets as he stated in his articals.

Bell could see the relationship between faster moving bullets with some weight behind them.

The little 175 to 200+ grain pills with 2700 + ft-per seconds up close would of improved his odds of 1 shot kills.

A small bullet in Bells day would of been something less than 4 to 500gr's,,, kinda like Roy, Jack and alot of other good hunters of day.

Jack shot most of his big game in North America with big bores,,, and his trusty 416 in Africa.

Yuppers, even the shooters of their day knew about the limitations of what those cartrages could and couldn't do

Purhaps this might be why larger cases and better bullets evolved,,, it allows us,,, "the generation that followed" to be able to go to the sporting goods shop and buy the caliber and rifles to go hunting.

No math required if a person chooses to pick a larger unit,,, they also come with some advantages one would think,,, purhaps some disadvantages as well.

Only the owner of his or her unit will know this with their own unique ways of doing things.

Good times for all depending on their needs and wants.

  #253  
Old 12-06-2018, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_Parsons View Post
It's fun following along with this thread, kind of off track at times thanks to me for offering the lighter side of stuff you know.

Its awesome that the next generation of firearms are in the market place,,, this means that our old irons will climb in value as they become collector items. Ha

Who though a refurbished WW II M-1 Grand would fetch $5 to 7 G these days,,, a Winchester octagon barrel 30-30 lever action would top that price tag at $10 G.

The world will continue to come out with the latest and greatest for years to come,,, my older friends would like nothing more than to give this stuff a go,,, but there are 2 many factors that prevent this from happening.

Just relax I share with him,,, look at all the old battle scares of the beautiful wood on your stock,,, see that nick in the barrel,,, I remember you telling me about the story when you darn near slipped over the ice edge sheep hunting in 1977,,, I think you slammed that rifle down hard that prevented you from going over that drop off... Mr G were luck that day.

Look at Fred's old unit,,, 100+ years of hunting in that rifle,,, and it's still on the go with his grandson behind the controls,,, maybe the day will come when he buys a new gun as he gives that diamond of a rifle to his son or daughter,,, what a gem it is.

My close friend Terry is humbled to hold possession of my 300 Mag,,, its in some might fine hands,,, kinda like Todd who still uses my old 7x57,,, Stan bought the other one,,, boy,,, those were 2 good shooters.

My hunting partner is still on track with his Remmy Semi auto,,, man,,, has that rifle harvested alot of game beginning in 1967 or was that 69,,, Hummmmm,,, time has slipped me by I guess. Ha

Yuppers, lots to dream about when it comes to the new stuff,,, but it fades away once I head down the cut line with old Bettzy,,, she's pretty accurate for a 30 cal,,, nothing special,,, but it gets the job done.

I was pretty happy on a few of the sight-ins up North this year,,, Ha. The kids must think I shoot way to much,,, that's what its all about I yell at them,,, put in your ear plugs,,, its shooting time.

I could see Carl grin from ear to ear,,, he knew what I was talking about,,, his old weathered hands fit his irons like a glove. He knows this,,, who in Alberta has their name on the Queen's Plate 2 X's,,, and placed 200th in the world's.

Yes,,, hands that aren't as steady as they once were,,, but his eyes still hold the key.

Funny that Carl and Vick both shot fixed up old Lee Enfields custom in the 308 NATO rounds,,, both of them worked free hand with peep hole sights for all those years,,, Ha,,, Cat knows what I'm talking about.

Marksmen with 1/2 if not a 1/3 of what we have today,,, those fellows could shoot the ever changing winds like it was nothing. They are part of the Elite few who could get things done in their day.

Then top it off with some spectacular hunting stories with all to share in.

Both Carl and Vick have covered more ground then I will live to see,,, hopefully the Supreme Bean allows me to at least catch up. Ha.

I guess there's something to be said about all the rifles and cartrages each of us own, they might not be the latest and greatest, maybe they aren't the shinny pony of National match or the world's little lone the state champion units,,,, whoops,,, I mean Provincial.

They are the guns we own,,, they fill our needs, yes,,, we have to put more effort into them then the new stuff,,, but thats part of the fun.

Either change things up, or leave well enough alone,,, at least well enough alone won't cost us a lot money.

I like what I have Carl,,, I know deep down inside that you have a cabinet of irons you will not part with,,, good on you for staying the course.

Yuppers, my good life long friend will rest easy tonight with memories of 80+ years in the competion and Harvesting fields all done with irons that still stand the proven test of time.

Kinda like me i guess,,, to stubborn to change, not wize enough to do it either. Oh well,,, purhaps I get to be my own living Legend in my dreams tonight as I sleep.

Old school 30 cal to hand down to the next generation of brothers and sisters when that time comes,,, very humbling indeed you would think.

By the way, did I mention that I like everything that has something to do with the great outdoors, it's nice to take it on now since the time will come when it becomes more challanging to do this stuff,,, I hope TV is around when I hang up the irons.

Ha

Very well put! I’m a younger fellow who very much appreciates old school. So many cartridges are so similar in “paper performance” and it seems we get caught up in numbers and forget that the boys from back in the day had little choice in which rifle and/or sight they used, they learned to hone their skills and became true marksman in the field.

Any 6.5 is a good cartridge imo, the ballistic coefficient of the 6.5 projectile are exceptional and very few calibres can match them in that area. Personally I am planning on exchanging my “fast small bores” and “big bad magnums” for a good old fashioned.30-06 Sprg with a simple fixed 4x scope because I love the history of the cartridge and you can’t beat an original imo.

In the end we live in a glorious era for cartridge, rifle, and optic choice. So let’s get out there and enjoy our firearms, campfires, long and tall hunting tales, and focus less on the ballistics calculator!
  #254  
Old 12-06-2018, 08:57 AM
Jeron Kahyar Jeron Kahyar is offline
 
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Originally Posted by BoltAction9 View Post
Personally I am planning on exchanging my “fast small bores” and “big bad magnums” for a good old fashioned.30-06 Sprg with a simple fixed 4x scope because I love the history of the cartridge and you can’t beat an original imo.
When it all comes down to it. This is a great way to choose. Reality of it most cartridges will work for the majority of situations most will hunt. Pick it because you like it!
  #255  
Old 12-06-2018, 09:05 AM
Norwest Alta Norwest Alta is offline
 
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When it all comes down to it. This is a great way to choose. Reality of it most cartridges will work for the majority of situations most will hunt. Pick it because you like it!
Yep.
  #256  
Old 12-06-2018, 09:12 AM
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When it all comes down to it. This is a great way to choose. Reality of it most cartridges will work for the majority of situations most will hunt. Pick it because you like it!
X3. All these threads do is cause friction.
  #257  
Old 12-06-2018, 10:27 AM
Subaru297 Subaru297 is offline
 
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In a theoretical world Stinky is correct in his statement that penetration will be equal.
Penetration is reliant on two factors. Sectional density and velocity.

So if velocity is equal and SD are equal the 200gr .30 caliber bullet and the 6.5mm 147gr bullet will both penetrate the same amount. Let's call it 30 inches for now. This is also assuming neither bullet deforms and the SD remains identical in both cases.
We all know the energy of the .30 cal bullet is higher and it uses this energy to create a larger wound channel but penetration is still equal. Energy equals work, or damage in this case.

But we don't live in a theoretical world where bullets don't deform, in fact we want them to deform.

SD is still important for terminal ballistics but it changes as soon as the bullet deforms and sheds weight.

Let's assume 80% weight retention and double diameter expansion.

147gr 6.5mm (0.2644 diameter)

147/(7000*0.2644^2)=0.300 original SD
117.6/(7000*0.529^2)=0.060 terminal SD

200gr 0.30 cal (0.308 diameter)

200/(7000*0.308^2)=0.301 original SD
160/(7000*0.616^2)=0.060 terminal SD

Well I must admit I wasn't expecting the same terminal SD

So penetration will still be equal if both bullets deform and shed the same proportion of weight. So penetration is really dependent on bullet construction! Which we all knew already, right?

So yes, Stinky is right, penetration will be the same but the larger bullet will impact with more energy creating a larger wound channel.

Now whether a 0.529 inch hole through both lungs is significantly different than a 0.616 inch hole.....I don't know that equation, sorry.

Shot placement is always key. So if you can shoot your 6.5 whatever more accurately than your 0.30 whatever then the 6.5 will perform better. If you can shoot whatever your using accurately you are good to go.

Now where was that recoil thread?
  #258  
Old 12-06-2018, 10:35 AM
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Nobody is talking about wind drift? So given equal velocity and sectional density, which one drifts more at a constant 10 mph cross wind at 1000 yards?
  #259  
Old 12-06-2018, 10:44 AM
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Nobody is talking about wind drift? So given equal velocity and sectional density, which one drifts more at a constant 10 mph cross wind at 1000 yards?
mentioned in Post6 in this thread!
Cat
http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=355674
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  #260  
Old 12-06-2018, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by 41thunder View Post
X3. All these threads do is cause friction.
No marky, these threads have educated anyone who was willing to accept the facts. The friction comes from the people who think of these threads as a promotional gig rather than an informational thread.

Nobody said you have to buy a Grendel or a Creedmoor, they all started out as highlighting the ballistics of 6.5 projectiles and the actual terminal performance of such cartridges in this caliber.

Stinky has been posting facts, then guys like yourself blow what’s said way out of context and turn it into a “wimpy mans gun vs a manly mans gun” argument.

It’s been said many times, if you don’t like the topic of the thread then move onto another one instead of trolling and causing grief.

I did a lot of research before I bought a Creedmoor and still learned more from these threads, as I’m sure a lot of members have learned a thing or two from them whether they’d like to admit it or not.
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  #261  
Old 12-06-2018, 12:39 PM
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No marky, these threads have educated anyone who was willing to accept the facts. The friction comes from the people who think of these threads as a promotional gig rather than an informational thread.

Nobody said you have to buy a Grendel or a Creedmoor, they all started out as highlighting the ballistics of 6.5 projectiles and the actual terminal performance of such cartridges in this caliber.

Stinky has been posting facts, then guys like yourself blow what’s said way out of context and turn it into a “wimpy mans gun vs a manly mans gun” argument.

It’s been said many times, if you don’t like the topic of the thread then move onto another one instead of trolling and causing grief.

I did a lot of research before I bought a Creedmoor and still learned more from these threads, as I’m sure a lot of members have learned a thing or two from them whether they’d like to admit it or not.
The problem with the facts is the data gets skewed one direction if you don't look at the physics involved. A 5% change in velocity has a greater affect than a 5% change in mass. I could care less what caliber being compared as I am not partial to any caliber. I just want people to look at the correct data. It's is easy to say a 55.4% change in recoil only gives a 5.4% change in velocity. 55.4% to 5.4% looks like minimal gains when you look at the percentages. Convert it to a meaningful number which is energy and then the data starts to paint the real picture. Sure the Creedmoor has more bang for the recoil but it will not outperform a magnum that is putting out much higher energy into the animal.
  #262  
Old 12-06-2018, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Subaru297 View Post
In a theoretical world Stinky is correct in his statement that penetration will be equal.
Penetration is reliant on two factors. Sectional density and velocity.

So if velocity is equal and SD are equal the 200gr .30 caliber bullet and the 6.5mm 147gr bullet will both penetrate the same amount. Let's call it 30 inches for now. This is also assuming neither bullet deforms and the SD remains identical in both cases.
We all know the energy of the .30 cal bullet is higher and it uses this energy to create a larger wound channel but penetration is still equal. Energy equals work, or damage in this case.

But we don't live in a theoretical world where bullets don't deform, in fact we want them to deform.

SD is still important for terminal ballistics but it changes as soon as the bullet deforms and sheds weight.

Let's assume 80% weight retention and double diameter expansion.

147gr 6.5mm (0.2644 diameter)

147/(7000*0.2644^2)=0.300 original SD
117.6/(7000*0.529^2)=0.060 terminal SD

200gr 0.30 cal (0.308 diameter)

200/(7000*0.308^2)=0.301 original SD
160/(7000*0.616^2)=0.060 terminal SD

Well I must admit I wasn't expecting the same terminal SD

So penetration will still be equal if both bullets deform and shed the same proportion of weight. So penetration is really dependent on bullet construction! Which we all knew already, right?

So yes, Stinky is right, penetration will be the same but the larger bullet will impact with more energy creating a larger wound channel.

Now whether a 0.529 inch hole through both lungs is significantly different than a 0.616 inch hole.....I don't know that equation, sorry.

Shot placement is always key. So if you can shoot your 6.5 whatever more accurately than your 0.30 whatever then the 6.5 will perform better. If you can shoot whatever your using accurately you are good to go.

Now where was that recoil thread?
Thankyou for a great polite thought out response.

And this is where it’s up to the individual to weigh out whether that 50-60% more recoil energy translates into 50-60% more wound channel energy, or 50-60% faster kill, or however you’d like to quantify it????

I’m not telling people what the answer is there, I know personally that the ratio isn’t equal so I choose far less recoil energy and apply better understanding of impact velocity, sd and construction and shoot better too. Which goes hand in hand with reduced recoil energy.

I would only be able to guess that the ratio of extra recoil energy to the added benefit of on target energy would be maybe less than 1/4 or a 5th gain for more than double the recoil. No thanks. Who has math that can quantify that?

👍
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  #263  
Old 12-06-2018, 12:46 PM
AndrewM AndrewM is offline
 
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This is what should be stated:
6.5 cm 147 gr vs 300 win mag 200 gr
Factory Hornady Loads
Exact same SD = .301

6.5 cm has 55.4% less recoil
6.5 cm has 26.5% less bullet weight
6.5 cm has 5.4% less velocity
6.5 cm has 35-40% less energy

Is 55.4% less recoil worth 35-40% less energy into the animal? For some it is, and for some it isn't. The energy into the animal is similar to the energy into the person's shoulder so those are the two numbers to compare. Not recoil to velocity. Do you need excessive energy to kill? Absolutely not. Do you need a Toyota or a Ford truck to pull a trailer? Take your pick. One may have a bit more power but both should get the job done.

Last edited by AndrewM; 12-06-2018 at 12:58 PM.
  #264  
Old 12-06-2018, 12:59 PM
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Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewM View Post
This is what should be stated:
6.5 cm 147 gr vs 300 win mag 200 gr
Factory Hornady Loads
Exact same penetration (sd.301)

6.5 cm has 55.4% less recoil
6.5 cm has 26.5% less bullet weight
6.5 cm has 5.4% less velocity
6.5 cm has 35-40% less energy

Is 55.4% less recoil worth 35-40% less energy into the animal? For some it is, and for some it isn't. The energy into the animal is similar to the energy into the person's shoulder so those are the two numbers to compare. Not recoil to velocity. Do you need excessive energy to kill? Absolutely not. Do you need a Toyota or a Ford truck to pull a trailer? Take your pick. One may have a bit more power but both should get the job done.
Ballistics is what keeps the energy until it gets to the target, poor ballistics = faster loss of energy, that’s the appeal of long skinny bullets and the advantage high bc’s give. Probably common sense but I just figured I’d add it to the conversation. It’s what I like about the heavy for caliber bullets and the reason I like the 6.5’s.
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  #265  
Old 12-06-2018, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt505 View Post
Ballistics is what keeps the energy until it gets to the target, poor ballistics = faster loss of energy, that’s the appeal of long skinny bullets and the advantage high bc’s give. Probably common sense but I just figured I’d add it to the conversation. It’s what I like about the heavy for caliber bullets and the reason I like the 6.5’s.
Absolutely and none of the data matters if you cannot hit your target accurately!
  #266  
Old 12-06-2018, 01:21 PM
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Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewM View Post
Sure the Creedmoor has more bang for the recoil but it will not outperform a magnum that is putting out much higher energy into the animal.

You can manipulate the game so that the Creedmoor can have more energy than a 300 magnum by shooting a 147gr bullet out of the Creedmoor and a 125gr bullet out of the 300 magnum, I’m not sure at what distance it would happen, but it definitely would happen.

Common sense has to be factored into these threads along with the data as well as with hunting scinarios. When talking about one cartridge outperforming another it has to be kept in context. Because 2 bullets have the same penetration doesn’t mean they’ll both have the same energy or cause the same amount of damage. Getting the bullet deep enough, and with enough speed and energy for the bullet to function as designed to cause fatal damage is what matters imo. Anything more is wasted energy.
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  #267  
Old 12-06-2018, 01:52 PM
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Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
 
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Fantastic points and yes Kurt, this compares abnormal 300 win mag factory ammo options to normal 6.5 Creedmoor options. If 300 win mag was normal everyday running some 150-180 gr stuff yes the 6.5 will catch it and walk on it somewhere down the line past normal hunting distances.
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  #268  
Old 12-06-2018, 01:55 PM
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Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewM View Post
This is what should be stated:
6.5 cm 147 gr vs 300 win mag 200 gr
Factory Hornady Loads
Exact same SD = .301

6.5 cm has 55.4% less recoil
6.5 cm has 26.5% less bullet weight
6.5 cm has 5.4% less velocity
6.5 cm has 35-40% less energy

Is 55.4% less recoil worth 35-40% less energy into the animal? For some it is, and for some it isn't. The energy into the animal is similar to the energy into the person's shoulder so those are the two numbers to compare. Not recoil to velocity. Do you need excessive energy to kill? Absolutely not. Do you need a Toyota or a Ford truck to pull a trailer? Take your pick. One may have a bit more power but both should get the job done.
Well said, and agree. When often that extra energy, however useful it really is, is dumped into the ground. The efficiency ratio about as high as you can currently get with the 6.5’s.
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The Unofficially Official DEER CLUB for BOWHUNTERS.
Any combination of deer species
P&Y measuring standards, Net Inches Only
Meeting the P&Y minimums to qualify
Up to 7 deer totalling 1000" or higher
1k, 2k, 3k levels attainable.

1000 Club w/6, also 700 Muley Club(w/bow), 1 deer away from 2000 Club!
  #269  
Old 12-06-2018, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt505 View Post
No marky, these threads have educated anyone who was willing to accept the facts. The friction comes from the people who think of these threads as a promotional gig rather than an informational thread.

Nobody said you have to buy a Grendel or a Creedmoor, they all started out as highlighting the ballistics of 6.5 projectiles and the actual terminal performance of such cartridges in this caliber.

Stinky has been posting facts, then guys like yourself blow what’s said way out of context and turn it into a “wimpy mans gun vs a manly mans gun” argument.

It’s been said many times, if you don’t like the topic of the thread then move onto another one instead of trolling and causing grief.

I did a lot of research before I bought a Creedmoor and still learned more from these threads, as I’m sure a lot of members have learned a thing or two from them whether they’d like to admit it or not.
Kurt, simply because he disagree’s with the opinion certainly does not mean he is trolling and causing grief. He actually is correct as there has been lots of friction and your response to even this reply normally will be negative and cause more of the said friction. It also does not mean he has to move on. The nay sayers have as much right to disagree with the information SC has provided as you do to support it. You three do not have the sole right to decide the opinions of the rest and certainly do not have the right to tell them to move alone. The police (mods) send PM’s to control this, (LOL been the recipient a few times). Anyways your not a mod (yet)
  #270  
Old 12-06-2018, 05:43 PM
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BoltAction9 BoltAction9 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote View Post
Well said, and agree. When often that extra energy, however useful it really is, is dumped into the ground. The efficiency ratio about as high as you can currently get with the 6.5’s.
True enough! Kenworth loads of energy on the opposite side of the animal is useless. The .270 Winchester is very popular elk cartridge (and many hunters consider elk one of the toughest game animals in North America) and is only .013” larger in diameter and ballistics will be very similar (and many 6.5’s will have the advantage over it). And as far as long range energy goes, most of us can’t shoot beyond 300 yards in perfect conditions good enough to make a clean shot beyond that distance.

In the end, use a quality bullet, only take clean shots with in your limits and the limits of your rifle (which are probably greater than most peoples shooting abilities) and get out hunting!
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