Scope Leveling

[huntinstuff]

I level scopes. Almost to a fault. My friend found this info from "DeanOptics"

Does A Rifle Scope Have To Be Level?

There are a lot of different opinions out there on whether or not a rifle scope has to be level. The main reason why people believe that a scope doesn’t have to be level is that they think that the reticle, or crosshair, will be off-center if the scope is not level. However, this is not the case.

The reticle is actually designed to be off-center so that it can be used for making precision shots. The reason why the reticle is off-center is that it is placed in the first focal plane of the scope. This means that the reticle will appear to move when the magnification of the scope is changed.


So, even if the scope is not level, the reticle will still be in the same place in relation to the target. Therefore, it is not necessary to level a rifle scope in order to make accurate shots.


Uhhhhh.....so I suppose if you have mildots etc you would utilize some sort or a curvature pendulum system to accurately use them.......or you level your gun to the Earth and purposely shoot with "cant" for better fit?

[elkhunter11]

Technically, he is correct, the crosshairs will be centered in the same location, if you always hold the rifle vertically. But if you use a BDC reticle, or mildots, or if you twist turrets, you will introduce error. And what do you use as a reference to hold your rifle vertically? Most people use the crosshairs to make sure they are holding the rifle vertically. So while his theory may be technically correct, it makes no sense from a practical standpoint.

[FishOutOfWater]

Yeah, this theory seems to only apply if you only use the center of the crosshairs.

And what about SFP scopes where the reticle doesn't move ?

[Pathfinder76]

The scope does not need to be level with the rifle. It needs to be level to the world. In other words. You need to level the crosshair with the level, not the rifle. If you are not correcting elevation in the field it makes zero difference.

[huntinstuff]

Originally Posted by Pathfinder76

The scope does not need to be level with the rifle. It needs to be level to the world. In other words. You need to level the crosshair with the level, not the rifle. If you are not correcting elevation in the field it makes zero difference.

Agreed

[ScottFitter]

Level is level. Only noticeable with longer ranges. Most normal hunting ranges it will change "maybe" a 1/4". Precision and long range guys, especially the PRS style guys use rifle levels, mostly mounted to the rail, and a scope leveled to that.
If you are using your turrets with a canted scope, you aren't just going left to right or up and down if the scope isn't level.

Again, does this matter to the average shooter? No. It all depends on what you're looking to do with your shooting.

[fishnguy]

Originally Posted by ScottFitter

Again, does this matter to the average shooter? No.

Except it can drive a guy nuts!

[Redneck 7]

Or if you have a scope that has turrets and you tall target test the scope. If the reticle moves up on an angle or down on an angle when you do the test. You need to cant. your scope so that the reticle travel is perfectly plumb.

[DiabeticKripple]

If your stock or rings have a bubble level, and you use that as a reference for if the rifle is level, the scope does need to be level as well to not induce any shooting error.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by DiabeticKripple

If your stock or rings have a bubble level, and you use that as a reference for if the rifle is level, the scope does need to be level as well to not induce any shooting error.

The scope needs to match the level. That’s it.

[Smokinyotes]

I’m not sure why you wouldn’t want your gun and scope both level.

[MK2750]

Lots of dead horses to kick in this thread,

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=194468

[Ackleyman]

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

I’m not sure why you wouldn’t want your gun and scope both level.

X2

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

I’m not sure why you wouldn’t want your gun and scope both level.

Exactly, the scope has to be level for the adjustments and reticle to work properly, the rifle has to be level to eliminate any windage offset.

[dave99]

Good thread: lots to learn and some biases exposed.

Strictly speaking, I agree with Path76 in that this only matters when clicking or using BDC scopes. I also agree that THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IS THAT THE SCOPE IS LEVEL* (and not that the rifle be level).

Despite being counterintuitive, the rifle can be fired accurately at ANY angle of cant (including upside down or sideways) so long as the scope is level to the horizontal plane. Then you can make all the elevation adjustments you like and still be repeatable and on target.

Remember that the barrel is just a round tube, so gravity doesn’t begin affecting a bullet’s path until it leaves the muzzle. A scope is a nothing more than an external tool to (accurately, if used properly) predict and adjust point of impact by moving the rifle.

The reason that folks like a scope to be level with a rifle is that it encourages proper shooting form (as in not canting the rifle) and is more repeatable from shooter to shooter.

A cant is just fine, as long as the scope alignment is properly adjusted (level to horizontal plane) and the shooter’s form is consistent and REPEATABLE.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by dave99

Good thread: lots to learn and some biases exposed.

Strictly speaking, I agree with Path76 in that this only matters when clicking or using BDC scopes. I also agree that THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IS THAT THE SCOPE IS LEVEL* (and not that the rifle be level).

Despite being counterintuitive, the rifle can be fired accurately at ANY angle of cant (including upside down or sideways) so long as the scope is level to the horizontal plane. Then you can make all the elevation adjustments you like and still be repeatable and on target.

Remember that the barrel is just a round tube, so gravity doesn’t begin affecting a bullet’s path until it leaves the muzzle. A scope is a nothing more than an external tool to (accurately, if used properly) predict and adjust point of impact by moving the rifle.

The reason that folks like a scope to be level with a rifle is that it encourages proper shooting form (as in not canting the rifle) and is more repeatable from shooter to shooter.

A cant is just fine, as long as the scope alignment is properly adjusted (level to horizontal plane) and the shooter’s form is consistent and REPEATABLE.

Vertically, you are correct, however if you hold the rifle sideways at 100 yards, and zero it, it will be out horizontally, at every distance except 100 yards. If the crosshairs are 1.5" from the bore, you will be out 1.5" at 200 yards, 3" at 300 yards, and 4.5" at 400 yards.

[obsessed1]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Vertically, you are correct, however if you hold the rifle sideways at 100 yards, and zero it, it will be out horizontally, at every distance except 100 yards. If the crosshairs are 1.5" from the bore, you will be out 1.5" at 200 yards, 3" at 300 yards, and 4.5" at 400 yards.

You are referring to offsetting the scope. Not canting the rifle. As long as scope reticle is level you can cant the gun all you want. At some point of extreme cant you might run out of L-R windage adjustment to zero the scope possibly but if you cant the rifle and level the scope when mounting then zero it L-R with the windage you will find that the vertical line of the reticle will always bisect the bore directly in half vertically. As long as the reticle is level to the world and your windage is adjusted right your bullet path will follow your reticle. To better understand this on a sheet of paper trace two dimes. These represent the bore. Then bysect one of those circles with a vertical line and add your horizontal line. This represents your cross hairs. Note its perfectly level with the bore and all seems good. Now with the next circle draw your vertical line canted you can do this by drawing a perfectly vertical line from one edge of the circle rather than bisecting it then draw a second line that bisects the circle and crosses the vertical line about 3 or so inches above the circle. Draw your horizontal reticle line square to your canted line. Now as you look at it it looks very crooked and way off level.. now cant your "rifle" by rotating the paper until the retical is "level" guess what its now perfectly level and your original one is now off.... if the gun is zeroed and the scope is held level while firing you can dial up or down as much as you want and no horizontal error will occur. Your scope needs to be level to the world while firing not the rifle. It can be both but it HAS to be level with the world. If you cant your retical and shoot with it canted you will find L-R dispersion.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by obsessed1

You are referring to offsetting the scope. Not canting the rifle. As long as scope reticle is level you can cant the gun all you want. At some point of extreme cant you might run out of L-R windage adjustment to zero the scope possibly but if you cant the rifle and level the scope when mounting then zero it L-R with the windage you will find that the vertical line of the reticle will always bisect the bore directly in half vertically. As long as the reticle is level to the world and your windage is adjusted right your bullet path will follow your reticle. To better understand this on a sheet of paper trace two dimes. These represent the bore. Then bysect one of those circles with a vertical line and add your horizontal line. This represents your cross hairs. Note its perfectly level with the bore and all seems good. Now with the next circle draw your vertical line canted you can do this by drawing a perfectly vertical line from one edge of the circle rather than bisecting it then draw a second line that bisects the circle and crosses the vertical line about 3 or so inches above the circle. Draw your horizontal reticle line square to your canted line. Now as you look at it it looks very crooked and way off level.. now cant your "rifle" by rotating the paper until the retical is "level" guess what its now perfectly level and your original one is now off.... if the gun is zeroed and the scope is held level while firing you can dial up or down as much as you want and no horizontal error will occur. Your scope needs to be level to the world while firing not the rifle. It can be both but it HAS to be level with the world. If you cant your retical and shoot with it canted you will find L-R dispersion.

If the rifle is canted, when you mount the scope level, you have created offset.

[Dmay]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

If the rifle is canted, when you mount the scope level, you have created offset.

True. But how much? A slight cant which would not be noticeable might be quarter inch or so let's say. So then if you zero at 100, at 200 you would be 1/4" to one side. 1/2" at 300. Hardly noticeable unless dealing with a real precision rifle.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Dmay

True. But how much? A slight cant which would not be noticeable might be quarter inch or so let's say. So then if you zero at 100, at 200 you would be 1/4" to one side. 1/2" at 300. Hardly noticeable unless dealing with a real precision rifle.

If you look at the post that I was replying to, the person mentioned that it wouldn't matter if you fired the rifle upside down or sideways, as long as the scope was level, my point is that if you hold the gun sideways with the scope level, you will have significant offset, it would be at least the distance from the bore to the crosshairs at some point.
Now for most practical situations, a slightly canted rifle wouldn't matter, because many shooters can't shoot accurately enough with their gear to notice. Then again, if the scope was very slightly canted, the same would apply.

[obsessed1]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

If the rifle is canted, when you mount the scope level, you have created offset.

You cancel that offset out by brining your POI to the ceter of your reticle with your windage adjustment. If your rifle is canted and your scope is level to the world and your poi is dead on the vertical line of your retical you are good to go. Every time

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by obsessed1

You cancel that offset out by brining your POI to the ceter of your reticle with your windage adjustment. If your rifle is canted and your scope is level to the world and your poi is dead on the vertical line of your retical you are good to go. Every time

If the rifle is canted, and therefore you have offset, you can only adjust that offset out conpletely at one distance. At every other distance, offset will still exist.

[DiabeticKripple]

Who the hell cants their rifle and sets their scope to be level like that?

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by DiabeticKripple

Who the hell cants their rifle and sets their scope to be level like that?

Lots of people out there with canted scopes. Most aren’t using turrets and no cant is ever that extreme. But in true web based fashion it is blown way out of proportion. But the bottom line is, if uncle Frank has his scope mounted with a cant to it it won’t make one hill of beans difference when he shoots at his freezer meat this fall. If he misses, something else is to blame.

[fishnguy]

Originally Posted by DiabeticKripple

Who the hell cants their rifle and sets their scope to be level like that?

I have seen people complaining about their scope being off-level only to check and see that it isn’t. Turns out they just simply hold their rifle like that, ie canted. I also mounted a scope on one rifle myself (can’t exactly recall what that rifle was now) and every time I picked it up, the reticle was clearly annoying. I checked several times and everything was dandy with the set up. Then I noticed that it was the way I handled that particular rifle and the set up was fine, it was all me (no matter what I did that was the only way that I was comfortable with that rifle; thankfully, it wasn’t mine, lol). If the rifle was mine and for whatever reason to keep, I would probably end up levelling the scope to my view rather than having to look at the canted reticle every time. One scope I mounted actually had a canted reticle and had to be sent for service (the thread is somewhere here) because it would annoy me to no end (was Leopold FX3).

[rpollock]

“Lambs to the cosmic slaughter”

These threads on levelling always remind me of this clip…..

https://youtu.be/-MwCJpEuC44

[Ebrand]

As I watch my boy (14) shoot this evening, I realize I can move the scope back on his rifle for him ( he has grown into the gun and he can deal with much less eye relief now ).

I wondered why the scope manufacturers and the ring manufacturers could not mark things to make this very easy to do?

But we get to shoot a bunch more after I move it back and level it again. So that is a good thing for us.

And I get load him more stuff up.

But some markings would sure simplify things.

[Dmay]

Originally Posted by Ebrand

I wondered why the scope manufacturers and the ring manufacturers could not mark things to make this very easy to do?
But some markings would sure simplify things.

What do you imagine they could mark for you?

[Ebrand]

Originally Posted by Dmay

What do you imagine they could mark for you?

Top Center of scope to align with top Center of rings??

Would work if you install rings equally ( not hard to do ) and torque properly.

Should leave everything after that square to the rifle.

I imagine…