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  #91  
Old 10-08-2019, 02:41 PM
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Maybe the WSFAb should develop a "Pre-registration" registration?

We can have court approved experts do an inspection and jig measurement of rams before they are brought to F&W for government inspection.

This evidence will help in court.

So sad that this is even a thought....
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  #92  
Old 10-08-2019, 02:43 PM
alder alder is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KyleSS View Post
I'm not sure if crowdfunding like GoFundMe is the right way to go or not but I'd be willing to pitch in some cash for you to fight this.

I don't view it a you fighting for your sheep back, I view it as you fighting for all sheep hunters.
X2. I’m in if you get an attorney and this gets set up via gofundme.

Creating a second set of regulations after the fact is a plain and simple violation of rights. Fish and Wildlife said go hunting for a sheep, here are the rules. Now you’re successful and they say, hold on, here’s a new additional rule that we didn’t tell you about but it applies. What country is this again?
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  #93  
Old 10-08-2019, 02:43 PM
czechm8 czechm8 is offline
 
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Default Write your MLA and the AEP Minister

It's time like this we have to try to have faith in the government and give them a chance to either make things right, or highlight their ineffectiveness.

I'm not a sheep hunter, but I feel for you guys knowing how much effort goes into these types of hunts (I've met many sheep hunters on my solo mountain elk hunts).

I wrote the following to the Hon Mr. Jason Nixon and CC'd my MLA. I would encourage others to do the same. The squeaky wheel gets the grease - be as loud as the recent climate protesters (and more civilized and professional if possible). Also, forgive me if any of this is inaccurate, I'm not terribly familiar with the issue and more just wanted to raise it with the powers that be ASAP.

---------------------------
Good Afternoon Mr. Nixon,

I am CC’ing Mr. Milliken as he is my local MLA.

I am very concerned to read of numerous recent accounts of ambiguous new regulations being applied to measure trophy sheep registrations across Alberta (associated with the “jigs” and measurement systems newly implemented in 2019), and the multiple trophy sheep that are being judged as illegal (too short), despite expert opinions that this is not the case. The problem stems from an ambiguity of whether to measure from the eye socket or eyeball. In the field, the eye-socket is impossible to see or estimate, and eyeball has always been the generally accepted reference point. However, it appears that a few of the registration offices are enforcing the eye socket as the reference point, with no leniency for 2019 which is the introduction year for the new system. Reading the regulations and registration changes for 2019/2020, there is no indication of what would be used as the reference point. This is resulting in numerous cases of confiscated skulls and meat, which is a very unfortunate waste of Alberta’s resources and a waste of life for these animals.

In these cases, charges are not being laid (which is understandable as there needs to be some leniency for “very close”, which can be difficult to judge perfectly in the field), however these people have no recourse for appeal. I invite you to read of the numerous cases yourself, directly from the source (link below). Many of the victims of these confiscations are seeking legal recourse and the few legal professionals who specialize in fish & wildlife are in agreeance that their case is strong.

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showt...95#post4036395

It would be ideal if AEP could get ahead of this and maybe issue a memo to all registration points with some direction on this - mostly to allow for some leniency on the eyeball vs. eye-socket issue (e.g. allow an additional 1 cm) for 2019 as this is the introduction year, prior to determining their path forward on how to implement this in future years in a way where this is not a recurring issue. As it stands, if many of these cases proceed to litigation it will be a further waste of taxpayer dollars and the time and effort of AEP and justice professionals on both sides.

Thank you,
czechm8
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  #94  
Old 10-08-2019, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper View Post
I see they have the jig adjusted to the eye socket in the first pic, which is not what the regulations say. The second pic I would say you have the jig adjusted correctly to follow the regulations. But I cannot tell if your ram is legal or not following our current regulations because the pic is not in profile, that ram is very close either way.
None of the three pictures are in perfect profile. Unless we can see one in perfect profile it is impossible to say one way or the other. In any case that is the definition of a squeaker if there was one. Shooting a ram that close is pretty dam brave imo. I wouldn't make that call.

There are probably a handful or more that get dumped each year in Alberta and left I in the hills to feed the grizzlies after a ground check proves them to be short.

Good luck in your court battle OR.
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  #95  
Old 10-08-2019, 03:05 PM
MooseRiverTrapper MooseRiverTrapper is offline
 
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Originally Posted by bdub View Post
None of the three pictures are in perfect profile. Unless we can see one in perfect profile it is impossible to say one way or the other. In any case that is the definition of a squeaker if there was one. Shooting a ram that close is pretty dam brave imo. I wouldn't make that call.

There are probably a handful or more that get dumped each year in Alberta and left I in the hills to feed the grizzlies after a ground check proves them to be short.

Good luck in your court battle OR.
Not sure why you quoted me?
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  #96  
Old 10-08-2019, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper View Post
Not sure why you quoted me?
No reason other than i am to lazy to blank out the rest of your quote.

Just trying to make an important point for you guys that shoot a squeaker ram and you are getting it looked at. You have to obtain a perfect profile photo of the ram showing the part of the jig against the base and down to the tip. That should be required as part of the registration. In perfect profile, the photo of the jig will be a perfect straight line. With out a photo showing this you are p g into the wind. All you have is a photo proving exactly nothing. Which is what all these picks prove. I wish you luck OR.
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  #97  
Old 10-08-2019, 06:34 PM
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William Redpath sheep harvested aug 26 in wmu 440. Is a squeaker ram worth thousands in court costs? Chalk it up as experience.
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  #98  
Old 10-08-2019, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by LKILR View Post
William Redpath sheep harvested aug 26 in wmu 440. Is a squeaker ram worth thousands in court costs? Chalk it up as experience.
You bet it is! Probably a lot of hard work went into that ram.
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  #99  
Old 10-08-2019, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LKILR View Post
William Redpath sheep harvested aug 26 in wmu 440. Is a squeaker ram worth thousands in court costs? Chalk it up as experience.
Might be the only one he was ever going to shoot and maybe took him 10 years to get that one. Why should he just give up without a fight
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  #100  
Old 10-08-2019, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by LKILR View Post
William Redpath sheep harvested aug 26 in wmu 440. Is a squeaker ram worth thousands in court costs? Chalk it up as experience.
Someone can read backgrounds. You can call me Billy though.
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  #101  
Old 10-08-2019, 08:07 PM
ram crazy ram crazy is offline
 
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Originally Posted by OldRussian View Post
Someone has some inside information. You can call me Billy though.
He got it off the tag in the pics you posted. Don't mind him, just another dick that likely hasn't killed a ram or if he has it was probably a squeaker.
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  #102  
Old 10-08-2019, 08:49 PM
dave99 dave99 is offline
 
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IMO Old Russians ram is legal as per the definition in the regulations. If interpreted to be the eyeball, then there is no case against him.

If the rule is interpreted by FW to mean the eye socket (rather than the eyeball), then we are all in trouble because FW has unilaterally moved the goal posts of what constitutes legal without telling anyone.

For those that claim that the picture is not taken in profile, have a look at his second pic (in which O.R. adjusted the jig to the eye). The jig extension (towards the camera) I believe is purposely designed to establish profile and extend it to the horn. This picture is nearly perfect profile, and the horn makes it to the line, just.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Aside: can anybody tell me whether this ram is legal? He is pretty close to perfect profile, but I can’t quite make out the eye socket








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  #103  
Old 10-08-2019, 09:44 PM
ram crazy ram crazy is offline
 
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Originally Posted by raw outdoors View Post
You will never see the sheep again. Charges no charges wether you dump $100 thousand into lawyers and take it to the federal courts. The government will always have more money and more lawyers and more time to waist than us poor hunters. Let this be a warning to all don’t shoot any ram unless it’s unmistakably legal, it’s a waist it’s unethical and it could cost you big $$ if you do get charged as they will never set presedence and return any animal once it is in the governments possession. Now that sheep was a waist of a life, meat,
You could try the punitive damages to recoup your legal fees!
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  #104  
Old 10-08-2019, 09:48 PM
ram crazy ram crazy is offline
 
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Originally Posted by dave99 View Post
IMO Old Russians ram is legal as per the definition in the regulations. If interpreted to be the eyeball, then there is no case against him.

If the rule is interpreted by FW to mean the eye socket (rather than the eyeball), then we are all in trouble because FW has unilaterally moved the goal posts of what constitutes legal without telling anyone.

For those that claim that the picture is not taken in profile, have a look at his second pic (in which O.R. adjusted the jig to the eye). The jig extension (towards the camera) I believe is purposely designed to establish profile and extend it to the horn. This picture is nearly perfect profile, and the horn makes it to the line, just.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Aside: can anybody tell me whether this ram is legal? He is pretty close to perfect profile, but I can’t quite make out the eye socket








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Hey Dave, as LKILR would say "he's just a squeaker"
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  #105  
Old 10-08-2019, 11:50 PM
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I was hoping the new process would improve registration but it doesn’t sound good. When I registered my first ram it was thorough and accurate and an overall good experience. Many years later I went to register my second ram at the same office. I took my kids as I thought it would be a good chance to see law enforcement in action and learn a bit about the careful management of our wildlife....... wrong. They refused to register it and insisted I leave it there. Getting that ram was one of the hardest things I have done in my life and I would probably trade any possession I had other than my house for it. I was not going to leave it there. I tried several times to arrange an appointment and stopped at the office several times with the horns. They refused to do it unless I left it. I finally relented. I was glad to see the new process allows for making an appointment. Once I finally got the call to come to F&W, instead of picking up a plugged and registered ram, I was interrogated with questions specifically designed to trick me into an answer that would incriminate me. When I provided a detailed topo map of location of kill, the officer took it behind the glass, flipped it upside down and asked me to mark it on a poor quality low definition aerial photo he printed off, again trying to trick me. I don’t understand how this evolved from a mandatory registration process into a mandatory interrogation process. They have every bit of info they need to come to your house and charge you if they have evidence of wrongdoing. I was very disappointed with F&W during this process. It is not all officers as I know some very well and have a lot of respect for them but there needs to be some changes. This guilty until proven innocent BS has to go.
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  #106  
Old 10-09-2019, 01:02 AM
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This is scary stuff, that they can just alter the definition of legal as printed during the registration process. You can say dont shoot squeaker rams (or you wouldnt or however it has been phrased) all you like, but the long and the short of it is that there is a definition of legal that is printed and it sounds like that is not standard that is being used during the registration process this year. The fact that they are confiscating the rams, while not laying charges and with no option (as of yet, hopefully Old Russian has success) to get it in front of a judge is just plain wrong. Plain and simple, if they are taking away your rams and you dont have a chance to fight for them back in court that goes against everything that our supposed legal system stands for. Count me in for a donation for all who are fighting this.
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  #107  
Old 10-09-2019, 05:46 AM
ram crazy ram crazy is offline
 
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I was in the same boat Chet! You seem to be guilty until proven innocent. If the cape were left on there wouldn't be no black and white, because front of the eye is front of the eye. My sheep hunting partner and I had this very conversation about the new jig and what problems there are going to be and it sounds like we were right. You could take a ram to 5 different officers and get 5 different answers. If they were to make 1 office in a central location and have 1 guy doing this it would be a way better. The drive to get it registered would be easy compared to the work that went into harvesting it.
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  #108  
Old 10-09-2019, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ram crazy View Post
He got it off the tag in the pics you posted. Don't mind him, just another dick that likely hasn't killed a ram or if he has it was probably a squeaker.
Your speculating. If you guys did not notice he posted a pic with all that info then you probably don’t pay attention to details much. This is how short rams get shot.
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  #109  
Old 10-09-2019, 06:41 AM
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The amount of $$ he gona spend on a lawyer he could hired a guide to help him get a legal ram. Just sayin. Let this be a lesson to all sheep hunters that are in pursuit of a barely legal ram. Let them grow one more year or more.
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  #110  
Old 10-09-2019, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by walking buffalo View Post
I can hear Ken now....
He does get passionate. Probably the best choice for a lawyer on this matter.

Спасибо OldRussian!

It is an absolute disgrace that F&W would implement such a process and allow staff to do this to Hunters. What a shame....
F&W should be disgusted with their actions and quickly offering up apologies and compensation where they have wronged people.
F&W should NOT be making hunters go to court to correct this obviously flawed policy, regulation and maneuvers.

The WSFAb should be butting heads HARD on this issue.


Emails and calls to Minister Nixon from the public are in order.
aep.minister@gov.ab.ca
780 427-2391

and Matt Besko
Section Head
Wildlife Management Policy
matt.besko@gov.ab.ca
This is like any other organization that puts money behind a “great idea”. Whether it is an operating system, machine, process you name it. When flaws are found, they often have to defend it for some time to justify the outlay of time and expense.

It is absolutely a farce. Especially when a $15 framing square from Canadian Tire is a better tool for the job.
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  #111  
Old 10-09-2019, 06:55 AM
cody j cody j is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chet View Post
I was hoping the new process would improve registration but it doesn’t sound good. When I registered my first ram it was thorough and accurate and an overall good experience. Many years later I went to register my second ram at the same office. I took my kids as I thought it would be a good chance to see law enforcement in action and learn a bit about the careful management of our wildlife....... wrong. They refused to register it and insisted I leave it there. Getting that ram was one of the hardest things I have done in my life and I would probably trade any possession I had other than my house for it. I was not going to leave it there. I tried several times to arrange an appointment and stopped at the office several times with the horns. They refused to do it unless I left it. I finally relented. I was glad to see the new process allows for making an appointment. Once I finally got the call to come to F&W, instead of picking up a plugged and registered ram, I was interrogated with questions specifically designed to trick me into an answer that would incriminate me. When I provided a detailed topo map of location of kill, the officer took it behind the glass, flipped it upside down and asked me to mark it on a poor quality low definition aerial photo he printed off, again trying to trick me. I don’t understand how this evolved from a mandatory registration process into a mandatory interrogation process. They have every bit of info they need to come to your house and charge you if they have evidence of wrongdoing. I was very disappointed with F&W during this process. It is not all officers as I know some very well and have a lot of respect for them but there needs to be some changes. This guilty until proven innocent BS has to go.
That’s interesting, I remember being asked to mark a precise location of my kill on a very poorly detailed map, I wouldn’t do it without a better map. It took weeks for them to complete the registration, I should have taken it to a different office
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  #112  
Old 10-09-2019, 07:44 AM
MooseRiverTrapper MooseRiverTrapper is offline
 
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Chet I had a very similar story of lies and entrapment, regarding the X on the map.
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  #113  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:21 AM
ram crazy ram crazy is offline
 
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Originally Posted by LKILR View Post
Your speculating. If you guys did not notice he posted a pic with all that info then you probably don’t pay attention to details much. This is how short rams get shot.
I'd say your the one that doesn't pay attention, you should go back and reread my post. I said that you got the info off the pic. Just because you think this ram I short means nothing. Let's see your ram!
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  #114  
Old 10-09-2019, 01:56 PM
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Just cause i'm curious, do we have any pics of the ram/rams in question that are in profile or in the field pics? Would be interesting to see what difference taking the fur off and a legit profile picture look like.

Sorry for all involved with any fights. Never good to see hunters, or governments pitted against others.
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  #115  
Old 10-09-2019, 02:10 PM
Full Curl Earl Full Curl Earl is offline
 
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It wont be that costly actually. The Prosecutor wont want to take this to court most likely. If one even gets involved as no charges were levied. A suit should be filed for the return of the rams, a manager will likely say “No charges were filed? Then why did you seize it”
Thats my hope.
And its not about squeaker rams, its about legal harvest, seeing as no charges were filed, it wasnt an illegal kill.
Although they have 2 years to file the charge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LKILR View Post
The amount of $$ he gona spend on a lawyer he could hired a guide to help him get a legal ram. Just sayin. Let this be a lesson to all sheep hunters that are in pursuit of a barely legal ram. Let them grow one more year or more.
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  #116  
Old 10-09-2019, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HuntingAlberta View Post
Just cause i'm curious, do we have any pics of the ram/rams in question that are in profile or in the field pics? Would be interesting to see what difference taking the fur off and a legit profile picture look like.

Sorry for all involved with any fights. Never good to see hunters, or governments pitted against others.
Post #61 and #70 has the photos OR has of the confiscated ram, just have to click on link and then go to website.

None of the pictures are in perfect profile which the poster and others are claiming or implying.

Three pictures of the head almost in profile. Close but not quite which makes it impossible to say whether the ram is legal or not from the photos.

We have bunch of guys arguing it is legal ram yet the ram in not in perfect profile or said guys do not understand what "in perfect profile" means.

Which leads to me wonder if they do not know what "in perfect profile" actually means, how can they possibly judge ram in the field under less than perfect conditions? So for these guys, I guess if the ram is facing slightly away from a perfect profile he's more legal than if hes facing slightly towards the hunter?
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  #117  
Old 10-09-2019, 05:32 PM
Bluedog Bluedog is offline
 
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Can the Old Russian (Bill) hunt Sheep next year or does he have to wait?
Bluedog
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  #118  
Old 10-09-2019, 06:31 PM
RZR RZR is offline
 
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Where you really have to be in perfect profile is when judging a full curl, but on a 4/5 you can be slightly above or below when judging as long as the front bases line up when viewing the ram.
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  #119  
Old 10-09-2019, 07:24 PM
Justahunter Justahunter is offline
 
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What Fish & Wildlife is doing here is unethical and will be defeated. First of all the regulations specificly state that the line must be drawn from the front of the base to the tip . And that the line needs to be beyond the eye. What they are doing with this jig is not going to the tip but going to the beyond location . The beyond location is not clearly identified therefore cannot apply in law . Insist that jason Nixon becomes totally aware of this and he can fire the idiot that came up with it
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  #120  
Old 10-09-2019, 07:35 PM
OldRussian OldRussian is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Bluedog View Post
Can the Old Russian (Bill) hunt Sheep next year or does he have to wait?
Bluedog
I can not hunt trophy sheep next year. In the regs it states that you may not purchase a tag if you kill a sheep the year prior.

For the pictures, I do not have any profile pictures in the field.
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