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  #241  
Old 10-12-2019, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Trochu View Post
I'm all for less government interference. And like gun bans, this isn't really about public safety. Banning alcohol, smoking, and fast food would in all likelihood save far, far more people than mandatory vaccines ever would in Canada, but I doubt very, very few on here would support that, even the pro government interference group.



Well said
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  #242  
Old 10-12-2019, 03:39 PM
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You got anymore space in your bunker for the civil war? Jesus you guys are bat**** crazy
Or I understand history, and you donít. I think anyone who thinks logically about the situation will come to the conclusion that we have little to gain with mandatory vaccinations and a ton to lose.
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  #243  
Old 10-12-2019, 04:33 PM
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Or I understand history, and you donít. I think anyone who thinks logically about the situation will come to the conclusion that we have little to gain with mandatory vaccinations and a ton to lose.
You're wrong.
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  #244  
Old 10-12-2019, 04:41 PM
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Do you even know the risk of a child dying from Measles in Canada is? Once every 100 or so years. So id take my chances on that. Also itís not the anti vaxxers who are the issue. Itís people who travel to areas where measles is still prevalent. I vote we ban all travelling, and if you want to go somewhere then your not allowed to return to Canada prior to a 90 day quarantine. Then we wonít have to worry about anyone ever getting sick

Your post is utter nonsense and shows how little you know on the issue.
Few more vaccination than just measles. And there is a reason things are eradicated and people arenít dying. Put that tinfoil hat on. It will protect you.
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  #245  
Old 10-12-2019, 04:42 PM
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It's funny that you're here peddling news articles while calling the peer reviewed research I've posted "junk".
I never posted it as a fact. I posted it as research is ongoing and it would be an interesting read for people who donít wear tinfoil hats. Lol.
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  #246  
Old 10-12-2019, 04:50 PM
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You're wrong.
Please show me all the research that says that mandatory vaccines will reduce exposure incidents. The fact is travel is by far the most likely cause of an exposure, not the anti vaxxers. How come I donít see anyone calling for quarantines on people coming back from countries where these diseases are prevalent?
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  #247  
Old 10-12-2019, 04:53 PM
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Few more vaccination than just measles. And there is a reason things are eradicated and people arenít dying. Put that tinfoil hat on. It will protect you.
You seemed to have missed that the argument is not about vaccines and whether theyíre good or bad. Itís about whether you value choice and freedom or not. You clearly are alright with the government taking someoneís rights away for something that will have a negligible effect on exposure rates. Iím not
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  #248  
Old 10-12-2019, 05:35 PM
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You seemed to have missed that the argument is not about vaccines and whether theyíre good or bad. Itís about whether you value choice and freedom or not. You clearly are alright with the government taking someoneís rights away for something that will have a negligible effect on exposure rates. Iím not
No we did have that discussion whether vaccines work. Have a read about the no use for handicapped people part which someone posted. I think you missed where I said people can choose. Just choose to stay away from school and at risk population as well.
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  #249  
Old 10-12-2019, 06:07 PM
reddeerguy2015 reddeerguy2015 is online now
 
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Please show me all the research that says that mandatory vaccines will reduce exposure incidents. The fact is travel is by far the most likely cause of an exposure, not the anti vaxxers. How come I donít see anyone calling for quarantines on people coming back from countries where these diseases are prevalent?
I don't have to show you any research. It's beyond common sense. Something you're obviously lacking. Cheers mate.
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  #250  
Old 10-12-2019, 06:13 PM
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No we did have that discussion whether vaccines work. Have a read about the no use for handicapped people part which someone posted. I think you missed where I said people can choose. Just choose to stay away from school and at risk population as well.
This is where I fundamentally disagree... If you are an at risk person, it is your job to learn how to live on this planet around your own issues and not expect other to do things to themselves to accommodate you. For the record... I am no anti-vaxxer and I have family who are just the types of persons you say you need to protect. I just do not feel the need to force others into bending to my will. My cousin and aunt who have the issues have figured out how to modify and live with their own life choices without demanding others change or adapt for them as it should be.
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  #251  
Old 10-12-2019, 06:24 PM
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This is where I fundamentally disagree... If you are an at risk person, it is your job to learn how to live on this planet around your own issues and not expect other to do things to themselves to accommodate you. For the record... I am no anti-vaxxer and I have family who are just the types of persons you say you need to protect. I just do not feel the need to force others into bending to my will. My cousin and aunt who have the issues have figured out how to modify and live with their own life choices without demanding others change or adapt for them as it should be.
I agree to a point but babies donít have a choice. Peanut allergies are tough as well. They didnít choose the allergy. Tough call.
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  #252  
Old 10-12-2019, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by reddeerguy2015 View Post
I don't have to show you any research. It's beyond common sense. Something you're obviously lacking. Cheers mate.
Common sense would dictate that a person wonít contract a illness unless theyíre exposed to it. The majority of cases in Canada come from travellers, who went to countries where these diseases were prevalent and brought them home. Why? Because these diseases are all but eradicated from Canada, proving that voluntary vaccination works.
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  #253  
Old 10-12-2019, 11:17 PM
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No we did have that discussion whether vaccines work. Have a read about the no use for handicapped people part which someone posted. I think you missed where I said people can choose. Just choose to stay away from school and at risk population as well.
No we didnít have a discussion on that. I donít advocate that they donít work. I do say thereís risk involved, but itís relatively low. Which a doctor would tell you. And what your saying is that if someone has kids who arenít vaccinated they canít attend school. Again I think you have no idea how these outbreaks are starting. Itís not anti vaxxers
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  #254  
Old 10-13-2019, 08:00 AM
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No we didnít have a discussion on that. I donít advocate that they donít work. I do say thereís risk involved, but itís relatively low. Which a doctor would tell you. And what your saying is that if someone has kids who arenít vaccinated they canít attend school. Again I think you have no idea how these outbreaks are starting. Itís not anti vaxxers
No I would propose that if they didnít want to vaccinate and if there is an outbreak then they have to stay home until the risk of exposure is basically gone. I believe this is similar to the way hospital staff behave now. No forced vaccination or flu medicines just no pay when they go home during an outbreak.

Outbreaks usually come from other countries. Probably ones that donít vaccinate...They are spread due to anti vaxxers after the fact.
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  #255  
Old 10-13-2019, 09:29 AM
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Bossman

Thank you for the link. I shall go through the paper and check out the journal it was published from. Your more than likely operating out of ultimately concerned for your family and I get that. Ironically, my initial position on this is the opposite based on the same motivation.

Raab.. have you dug into the idea of herd immunity? This concept seems to be missed by your Ďitís all about traveling?
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  #256  
Old 10-14-2019, 09:40 AM
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Bossman

Thank you for the link. I shall go through the paper and check out the journal it was published from. Your more than likely operating out of ultimately concerned for your family and I get that. Ironically, my initial position on this is the opposite based on the same motivation.

Raab.. have you dug into the idea of herd immunity? This concept seems to be missed by your Ďitís all about traveling?
No, I know all about herd immunity. IIRC about 90% of the population has voluntarily been vaccinated. Your also always going to have 5% of the population who cannot be vaccinated. So people are willing to give up their rights to enforce vaccinations on 5% of the population. I just donít see the need when so many voluntarily get vaccinated anyways.

I bring up travel, because the diseases are entering the country from other parts of the world, not from anti vaxxers. With 90% of our population having been vaccinated, we have effectively eradicated most of these diseases in this country anyway. Couple reasons I see no need for a mandatory vaccination law, and question any politician who wants to bring one in. Now if the numbers change maybe Iíd change my stance, but by and large voluntary vaccinations has been largely successful in this country.
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  #257  
Old 10-14-2019, 10:23 AM
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Please show me all the research that says that mandatory vaccines will reduce exposure incidents. The fact is travel is by far the most likely cause of an exposure, not the anti vaxxers. How come I donít see anyone calling for quarantines on people coming back from countries where these diseases are prevalent?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3171704/
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  #258  
Old 10-14-2019, 10:27 AM
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The problem raab... is the herd immunity threshold is threatened by the Ďspreadí of choosing not to vaccinate.

Some herd immunities, such as measles and whooping cough, require over 90% immunity you via vaccination.

Your own numbers shows that voluntary rights puts those who actually have to depend on the herd immunity due to health reasons (like my daughter)

Weíve had measles outbreaks and whooping cough outbreaks in Our province lately.... due to this threshold being challenged.

So.... if such a paltry Ďrightsí choice needs to be sacrificed for the group... so be it.

Itís a lot like not paying taxes.... thereís a threshold of noncompliance there too. Lots of the system falters and services gets affected....people refuse to pay cause Ďitís a wasteí.... as they drive the roads, use the schools, police, highways etc.

Sounds to me like your supporting the welfare leaches.
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  #259  
Old 10-14-2019, 10:39 AM
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Do you even know the risk of a child dying from Measles in Canada is? Once every 100 or so years. So id take my chances on that. Also itís not the anti vaxxers who are the issue. Itís people who travel to areas where measles is still prevalent. I vote we ban all travelling, and if you want to go somewhere then your not allowed to return to Canada prior to a 90 day quarantine. Then we wonít have to worry about anyone ever getting sick

Your post is utter nonsense and shows how little you know on the issue.
Your number of 1 death in 100 years is beyond stupid. You must have gotten that from one of your "anti vaccination" sites. An example is someone admitted to ICU and ventilated and their their diagnosis is pneumonia. Never mind that the cause of that pneumonia is measles. I guess in the Jenny Macarthy fan club that doesn't count as a death related to measles.
https://www.cdc.gov/measles/symptoms/complications.html
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  #260  
Old 10-14-2019, 12:05 PM
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The problem raab... is the herd immunity threshold is threatened by the Ďspreadí of choosing not to vaccinate.

Some herd immunities, such as measles and whooping cough, require over 90% immunity you via vaccination.

Your own numbers shows that voluntary rights puts those who actually have to depend on the herd immunity due to health reasons (like my daughter)

Weíve had measles outbreaks and whooping cough outbreaks in Our province lately.... due to this threshold being challenged.

So.... if such a paltry Ďrightsí choice needs to be sacrificed for the group... so be it.

Itís a lot like not paying taxes.... thereís a threshold of noncompliance there too. Lots of the system falters and services gets affected....people refuse to pay cause Ďitís a wasteí.... as they drive the roads, use the schools, police, highways etc.

Sounds to me like your supporting the welfare leaches.
Again, your not looking at the source of the outbreaks. There would be no outbreaks if we curtailed international travel. The outbreaks are not from anti vaxxers, and even with mandatory vaccinations weíll have still have similar outbreak rates.
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  #261  
Old 10-14-2019, 12:22 PM
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getting rid of 'the source...... travel' is ridiculously unrealistic.... we've been a daily globalized nation since 1500! Curtailing Int'l travel.... not a plausible in any scenario. Kindof a silly thing to hang your argument on to no?

Travel had caused every major disease spread since forever..... 1200-1300s plaugues of europe... small pox and the new world genocides..... spanish flu post ww1... yada yada


Making public school and university attendance require shots is a good solution to boosting herd thresholds to above 95% probably. People who don't vaccinate because its a 'rights issue' are not aware that their 'rights' are only there due to others being vaccinated...... that's NOT REALLY a natural deserved/derived right now is it...? It feels more like a "Imma social contract selfish leechy boi" thing.... yes? Do your bit... its not unreasonable.

You guys and your 'its my individual rights... nooooo!'.... yet we ALL live in a pretty socialist society. I love my individual rights as well..... I just see this 'rights sacrifice' as reasonable for the betterment of society. You and I disagree. And yes... I've stood up for my individual rights against society and suffered the consequences for it on more than one occasion..... so don;t play the 'imma commy' card here...


The outbreaks are indeed probably from a lowered threshold due to the interweb promoting 2 big things...

1. Lack of blind faith in our institutions and their recommendations . (which I'm not exactly against)
2. a lack of critical thinking and media/info parsing skills... something we all have generally never really needed to have..... or maybe we did, but mass consent manufacturing was more effective and we were all in 'bliss mode'.


bossguy... not ignoring you....Im reading this piece and not fishing for my bias to be confirmed like you may have been. I AM starting to think this paper does NOT support your conclusion and you cherry picked what you wanted to see out of this piece..... but I'm not a smart fellow and a slow reader of stuff like this.... plus I'm still sick and dat goose shoot just drained me man.
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  #262  
Old 10-14-2019, 01:25 PM
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My only conclusion is that aluminum adjuvants are poorly understood, not tested, and now shown to accumulate aluminum, a neurotoxin, in the body, including the brain. Based on that, I choose to avoid vaccines until further research is done. People have hypothesized that aluminum adjuvants could be linked to autism, allergies, etc. These are unstudied hypotheses, not proven or disproven, but plausible.
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Old 10-14-2019, 01:26 PM
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getting rid of 'the source...... travel' is ridiculously unrealistic.... we've been a daily globalized nation since 1500! Curtailing Int'l travel.... not a plausible in any scenario. Kindof a silly thing to hang your argument on to no?

Travel had caused every major disease spread since forever..... 1200-1300s plaugues of europe... small pox and the new world genocides..... spanish flu post ww1... yada yada


Making public school and university attendance require shots is a good solution to boosting herd thresholds to above 95% probably. People who don't vaccinate because its a 'rights issue' are not aware that their 'rights' are only there due to others being vaccinated...... that's NOT REALLY a natural deserved/derived right now is it...? It feels more like a "Imma social contract selfish leechy boi" thing.... yes? Do your bit... its not unreasonable.

You guys and your 'its my individual rights... nooooo!'.... yet we ALL live in a pretty socialist society. I love my individual rights as well..... I just see this 'rights sacrifice' as reasonable for the betterment of society. You and I disagree. And yes... I've stood up for my individual rights against society and suffered the consequences for it on more than one occasion..... so don;t play the 'imma commy' card here...


The outbreaks are indeed probably from a lowered threshold due to the interweb promoting 2 big things...

1. Lack of blind faith in our institutions and their recommendations . (which I'm not exactly against)
2. a lack of critical thinking and media/info parsing skills... something we all have generally never really needed to have..... or maybe we did, but mass consent manufacturing was more effective and we were all in 'bliss mode'.


bossguy... not ignoring you....Im reading this piece and not fishing for my bias to be confirmed like you may have been. I AM starting to think this paper does NOT support your conclusion and you cherry picked what you wanted to see out of this piece..... but I'm not a smart fellow and a slow reader of stuff like this.... plus I'm still sick and dat goose shoot just drained me man.
What Iím saying is that, even with mandatory vaccinations your going to have a similar number of outbreaks. Vaccines arenít 100% effective, so even if everyone was vaccinated, you would still have outbreaks. It really amazes me that youíd be alright giving the government permission to inject you with anything. But not be alright with quarantining people(restricted to travel with high rates of disease) and drawing blood to see if theyíre potential carriers of these diseases. I find the second option to be effective, with little to no risk. Itís also as plausible as ordering everyone to get vaccinated. As I already stated if the government forces vaccination, I will not get one, and will stand with others who refuse. Not a avenue we should go down IMO
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  #264  
Old 10-14-2019, 01:32 PM
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My only conclusion is that aluminum adjuvants are poorly understood, not tested, and now shown to accumulate aluminum, a neurotoxin, in the body, including the brain. Based on that, I choose to avoid vaccines until further research is done. People have hypothesized that aluminum adjuvants could be linked to autism, allergies, etc. These are unstudied hypotheses, not proven or disproven, but plausible.
Zero proof of your autism claim. Documented rate of intellectual disability from contacting measles. With your understanding of odds, you wouldn't do well in Vegas.....
CDC Quote
"About 1 child out of every 1,000 who get measles will develop encephalitis (swelling of the brain) that can lead to convulsions and can leave the child deaf or with intellectual disability."
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  #265  
Old 10-14-2019, 01:41 PM
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Autism does not kill anyone.
Not being vaccinated does.

And vaccinations do not cause autism.
What is the struggle with these points?
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I wasn't thinking far enough ahead for an outcome, I was ranting. By definition, a rant doesn't imply much forethought.....
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  #266  
Old 10-14-2019, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by bossmansteve View Post
My only conclusion is that aluminum adjuvants are poorly understood, not tested, and now shown to accumulate aluminum, a neurotoxin, in the body, including the brain. Based on that, I choose to avoid vaccines until further research is done. People have hypothesized that aluminum adjuvants could be linked to autism, allergies, etc. These are unstudied hypotheses, not proven or disproven, but plausible.


I need another research piece.... the company publisher of your scientific journal Frontiets SA seems to have a continual problem of not rejecting papers..... AKA non sufficient peer review mechanism.

Your making a Ďinformed decisioní based on peer reviewed science..... this paper imma reading may not have been properly scrutinized for proper scientific review.

Imma gon need more credible research to see if Iím ok with your making an informed decision bout your kids health..... and by default my kid.

Please note Iím not saying youíd wrong... but it would really suck if you were making a decision based solely on just this research bit.

There seems to be wayyy more research in support of immunizations.


Your Ďthousands of annecdotal stories by parentsí..... sorry.. annecdotals donít cut it much for me. Lots of annecdotals about gettin probed by aliens out there too. Donít see you buyin that idea...


From Wikipedia on Frontiers SA
ďn May 2015, Frontiers Media removed the entire editorial boards of Frontiers in Medicine and Frontiers in Cardiovascular Medicine after editors complained that Frontiers Media staff were "interfering with editorial decisions and violating core principles of medical publishing".[38]

In October 2015, Frontiers was added to Jeffrey Beall's list of "Potential, possible, or probable" predatory open-access publishers.[6][39][12] The inclusion was met with backlash amongst some researchers.[6] In July 2016 Beall recommended that academics not publish their work in Frontiers journals, stating "the fringe science published in Frontiers journals stigmatizes the honest research submitted and published there",[40] and in October of that year Beall reported that reviewers have called the review process "merely for show".[41]

In October 2015 the Committee on Publication Ethics (COPE) said that "there have been vigorous discussions about, and some editors are uncomfortable with, the editorial processes at Frontiers" but that "the processes are declared clearly on the publisher's site and we do not believe there is any attempt to deceive either editors or authors about these processes".[9] Frontiers is a COPE member and one of its employees sits on COPE's council.[9]

In September 2016 Frontiers demanded that the university where Beall worked force him to retract his claims.[42][43]

In November 2016 a paper linking vaccines to autism was retracted from a Frontiers journal.[44] Also in November 2016, a study published analyzing predatory publishing by gathering datasets with and without Frontiers journals.[45][clarification needed]

In 2017, further editors were removed, allegedly for their rejection rate being high.[46] A study published in eLife in November 2017 showed that "women are underrepresented in the peer-review process", and that "editors of both genders operate with substantial same-gender preference".[24] In December 2017 Adam Marcus and Ivan Oransky wrote in the magazine Nautilus that the acceptance rate of manuscripts in Frontiers journals was near 90%.[47]

According to Allison and James Kaufman in the 2018 book Pseudoscience: The Conspiracy Against Science, "Frontiers has used an in-house journals management software that does not give reviewers the option to recommend the rejection of manuscripts" and that the "system is setup to make it almost impossible to reject papers".[48]Ē

Imma leave dat there.....

Iím going to believe the CDC before your stuff so far.
More credible research please.



And Raab.... your wrong. The recent outbreaks we have heard about are very much indicative of a lack of immunized herd.
Try and find measles warnings from the 80ís and 90ís and early 2000ís... outbreaks sure coincide with the Interweb spreading stupid ideas.


...... and sorry, your Ďrights standí seems simply tin foil hat deep state silly to me man.

Much bigger things to be scared of.... like that UN!!!!!
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  #267  
Old 10-14-2019, 02:43 PM
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Raab.... Iím sorry if I offended you. I should just respectfully disagree, but Iím an ass. I think your a decent guy and Iíd hunt with ya any time. Jus bring Crown for the fire.
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Old 10-14-2019, 02:52 PM
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Raab.... Iím sorry if I offended you. I should just respectfully disagree, but Iím an ass. I think your a decent guy and Iíd hunt with ya any time. Jus bring Crown for the fire.
We typically use gas, but seeing how Crown tastes, that makes sense too....
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Old 10-14-2019, 02:54 PM
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Why you....sonova...!

Lol!
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Old 10-14-2019, 03:46 PM
raab raab is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Central Alberta
Posts: 4,019
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For all those spreading the herd immunity idea. This article shows that our current vaccination levels are fine to maintain herd immunity. So itís not appropriate as an excuse for mandatory vaccinations.

Again the issue is travellers. Even if we made the law, that those travelling who have not been vaccinated need to be quarantined. We could reduce the outbreaks even more. Quarantine should also be imposed on travellers going to areas with health advisories. I really donít want Ebola, or any of these other bad diseases coming here.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.theg...les-outbreaks/
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