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  #31  
Old 10-13-2019, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Bigwoodsman View Post
After reading this thread I think I need counselling myself. Does AO have a Pastor?

BW
AO is a feedlot, no pasture here.
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  #32  
Old 10-13-2019, 02:46 PM
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AO is a feedlot, no pasture here.
Hahahahahaha
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  #33  
Old 10-13-2019, 02:55 PM
204ruger 204ruger is offline
 
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Sounds like theres a lot that need to find better shops to deal with. It is possible for a flat rate shop or any shop to be honest but still charge flat rate.
Or do like half of the rest of the population and become a google/YouTube mechanic and repair your own stuff.
Part of the extra charge sometimes comes from having to deal with the ďknow it all donít charge me that much because I looked it up on google publicĒ because you know youíll be doing some BS ďkeep the customer happyĒ repair after the fact because they have a problem with the colour of washer fluid or something.
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  #34  
Old 10-13-2019, 03:12 PM
204ruger 204ruger is offline
 
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Not like Iím trying to sound harsh or anything. Iíve been a mechanic for many years and hate the constant bashing mechanics get for charging for the time they spend repairing or when a good mechanic is supposed to be punished for being faster than book time. The labour charge on a job even if it takes two hours but book time is 4 it gets billed out as 4 is for a warranty reason as well. Meaning when you put parts in and that part fails there is a lot of part suppliers that will cover cost of part only which is great. But who covers cost of labour itís not the shops fault the part failed but most reputable shops will cover the cost of labour. So the little extra (without charging more than book time) they got the first time doing the job because the mechanic was quick may help offset the warranty job. But not too many people think about the behind the scenes things that happen.
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  #35  
Old 10-14-2019, 12:48 PM
angler1 angler1 is offline
 
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Go to the Dodge dealership in Slave Lake to experiemce flat rate and hourly horrors. I watched and waited as an "alleged mechanic" fiddled woth his computer to no avail for an hour and a half. I was then informed that the part I needed would take 3 days to get said part ordered in. Oh well 3 days cost for motel and meals added on. When I picked it up I asked to see the problem part which I had requested they save. It was worth 225$. No way must have been thrown out. Total shop bill 770$ plus another 400$ for motel costs. Fas forward 1 week it happens again in Drayton Valley at Fountain Tire where the fservice manager says he has seen this before, faulty key fob. % min later out the door no charge. Beware of Lynn if she still is service manager, not a clue and definetely not customer oriented
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  #36  
Old 10-14-2019, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by brslk View Post
That's how flat rate works. If the Book rate is 2 hours and the mechanic does it in 1 hour, you still get charged 2 hours. If the book rate is 2 hours and it takes the mechanic 3 hours, you still get charged 2 hours.

Basically expecting to only pay for an hour when the book rate is double is punishing the mechanic for being good at what he does.

I can replace the blend doors in an Impala in about 1.5 hours. The book rate is 8.something. The customer gets charged book rate. Either that or I can have an apprentice take all day to do it and charge an hourly rate... lets say it takes the apprentice 12 hours, you cool with that?

Maybe they had two or three guys working on your boat to get it done quicker because you were waiting.

I'm not trying to argue with you Ken, you're a pretty reasonable guy, I just hate it when people think they're getting ripped off by flat rate.
I am fully aware on flat rate. I would never pay flat rate for winterizing.

When I walked through the door I had already called and asked how much to winterize my boat. They said $125 per hour plus oil, filters, antifreeze, stabilizer, fogging oil. Estimate was $300 done, I agreed so away we went.

It was 1 young guy. Not 3. I watched the entire time. I started and shut off the engines. I was charged for time they spent cleaning the mess they made on the deck of my boat. $125 per hour to spray windex on the deck.

If they had told me it was $125 per hour plus plus and i agreed then handed me an invoice for 2.5 hours flat rate they would have been sad at the outcome.
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Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck
I wasn't thinking far enough ahead for an outcome, I was ranting. By definition, a rant doesn't imply much forethought.....
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  #37  
Old 10-14-2019, 01:35 PM
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We have had the flat rate discussion many times. A friend of mine working at a dealership could do a certain job in 2 hours. He did 4 of these a day. The customers were all billed 8.5 hours. That's 34 hours work charged in a single day by a single young mechanic.
There is a difference between a good mechanic doing the work at lightning speed which is good for the business and outright fraud and theft. In this case what would CRA say when they bill out 170 hours per week from this one mechanic at $125 per hour yet pay him $35?

Overhead, insurance, utilities, yeah yeah.

He quit by the way, couldn't take any more of their crap and overbilling. I have not heard yet what happened with the labor board.
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Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck
I wasn't thinking far enough ahead for an outcome, I was ranting. By definition, a rant doesn't imply much forethought.....
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  #38  
Old 10-14-2019, 03:21 PM
Kristopher10 Kristopher10 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette View Post
We have had the flat rate discussion many times. A friend of mine working at a dealership could do a certain job in 2 hours. He did 4 of these a day. The customers were all billed 8.5 hours. That's 34 hours work charged in a single day by a single young mechanic.
There is a difference between a good mechanic doing the work at lightning speed which is good for the business and outright fraud and theft. In this case what would CRA say when they bill out 170 hours per week from this one mechanic at $125 per hour yet pay him $35?

Overhead, insurance, utilities, yeah yeah.

He quit by the way, couldn't take any more of their crap and overbilling. I have not heard yet what happened with the labor board.
May be different in AB, but when I worked flat rate in NB it was always on my pay stub and T4 as units or piece work, not hours. I suspect the shops would bill it out the same way that it was reported to the CRA. That said, while I did make a good paycheck for a while, the company got greedy and effectively reduced everyone's pay by half, then refusing to pay almost half of that. I had enough of the flat rate world. I changed career paths and have moved on, never looked back.
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  #39  
Old 10-14-2019, 03:31 PM
Kristopher10 Kristopher10 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by abhunter8 View Post
I see this all the time. I had a hot water tank replaced by a prominent Plumbing and heating company in Drayton Valley. 2 guys showed up at 1pm and were all done and gone by 3:30. They charged me for 4 hours. The owners said load and unload time etc. The shop is 5 minutes from my house. I went into to talk to them and they wanted to argue and yell at me. They reduced the bill to 3 hours. Also 2 young guys doing the work. One guy said he is 1st year apprentice ($20) and 2nd said he is just starting his 3rd yr ($27) of apprenticeship. I got charged 2 Journeymans rates of around $100. I don't mind paying for what is actually done and fair but I hate being unreasonably ripped off!
Maybe I misunderstood your post, if so please correct me. Sounds like they were onsite for 2.5 hours. There were 2 technicians. The company has to pay out a total of 5 hours to the technicians, but only billed you for 4. If that is the case then it sounds like the company was being reasonable.

I also can't say I've ever seen a company bill out a different labour rate based on whether the technician is an apprentice or journeyman. They have their labour rate based on average costing of technician wage, fixed overhead, fuel costs, and any number of other factors, plus a little extra for their profit. In my industry, a journeyman technician makes about 30% of the shop's labour rate. An apprentice is closer to the 18-25%.
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  #40  
Old 10-14-2019, 04:20 PM
hogie hogie is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette View Post
We have had the flat rate discussion many times. A friend of mine working at a dealership could do a certain job in 2 hours. He did 4 of these a day. The customers were all billed 8.5 hours. That's 34 hours work charged in a single day by a single young mechanic.
There is a difference between a good mechanic doing the work at lightning speed which is good for the business and outright fraud and theft. In this case what would CRA say when they bill out 170 hours per week from this one mechanic at $125 per hour yet pay him $35?

Overhead, insurance, utilities, yeah yeah.

He quit by the way, couldn't take any more of their crap and overbilling. I have not heard yet what happened with the labor board.
Well let's have the specifics on the vehicle and the job involved. I'll check flat rate times and procedure to do per manual . Until then this is just a story.
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  #41  
Old 10-14-2019, 04:56 PM
204ruger 204ruger is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette View Post
We have had the flat rate discussion many times. A friend of mine working at a dealership could do a certain job in 2 hours. He did 4 of these a day. The customers were all billed 8.5 hours. That's 34 hours work charged in a single day by a single young mechanic.
There is a difference between a good mechanic doing the work at lightning speed which is good for the business and outright fraud and theft. In this case what would CRA say when they bill out 170 hours per week from this one mechanic at $125 per hour yet pay him $35?

Overhead, insurance, utilities, yeah yeah.

He quit by the way, couldn't take any more of their crap and overbilling. I have not heard yet what happened with the labor board.
A true flat rate shop pays their technicians their hourly wage for hours billed. If he was actually billing 170 hours per week at 35$ / hr which is 3950$ per week which is excellent money thatís the attraction to flat rate for most mechanics.
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  #42  
Old 10-14-2019, 05:13 PM
hogie hogie is offline
 
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Originally Posted by 204ruger View Post
A true flat rate shop pays their technicians their hourly wage for hours billed. If he was actually billing 170 hours per week at 35$ / hr which is 3950$ per week which is excellent money thatís the attraction to flat rate for most mechanics.
Yep, and the next week he might only bill out 30 hours and be there for 40. Part of it .

I highly doubt that he could have the same same job all week long. Can you imagine all the rest of the guys in the shop watching that? It would be a giant fight waiting to happen. And to have all those same vehicles in that area only. Only sold to one area only and that's what everyone drives. Something doesn't sound right.
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  #43  
Old 10-14-2019, 06:05 PM
204ruger 204ruger is offline
 
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Originally Posted by hogie View Post
Yep, and the next week he might only bill out 30 hours and be there for 40. Part of it .

I highly doubt that he could have the same same job all week long. Can you imagine all the rest of the guys in the shop watching that? It would be a giant fight waiting to happen. And to have all those same vehicles in that area only. Only sold to one area only and that's what everyone drives. Something doesn't sound right.
No doubt there has been jobs that Iíve beat the book time substantially every time and billed out 3x my 8 hour day then the next day Iím sweeping the floor by 3. But if I had that job and those jobs coming in where I could bill that many hours day in day out weekly. Why would I complain or quit, something else is going on Iím sure!
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  #44  
Old 10-14-2019, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by hogie View Post
Well let's have the specifics on the vehicle and the job involved. I'll check flat rate times and procedure to do per manual . Until then this is just a story.
Then call it a story. I don't lie, feel no need to prove it. Take care.
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Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck
I wasn't thinking far enough ahead for an outcome, I was ranting. By definition, a rant doesn't imply much forethought.....
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  #45  
Old 10-14-2019, 07:02 PM
hogie hogie is offline
 
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Originally Posted by 204ruger View Post
No doubt there has been jobs that Iíve beat the book time substantially every time and billed out 3x my 8 hour day then the next day Iím sweeping the floor by 3. But if I had that job and those jobs coming in where I could bill that many hours day in day out weekly. Why would I complain or quit, something else is going on Iím sure!
And making time is tech dependent. What you can do fast it might take me longer because my hands don't fit!! Really need to be getting work fed jobs to make huge hours.

To be able to charge out 34 hours in a 8 hour day would be crazy. And to be able to do it for a week on top of that.
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  #46  
Old 10-14-2019, 07:05 PM
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huntinstuff huntinstuff is offline
 
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There is NOTHING I havenít had to fix in an Argo

Ive built one from pieces flown into Yukon camp

Ive taken one completely apart

Axels, brakes, throttle cables, tranny, chains, gaskets, name it

When they work, they're gold.
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  #47  
Old 10-14-2019, 07:07 PM
hogie hogie is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette View Post
Then call it a story. I don't lie, feel no need to prove it. Take care.
That says a lot. Back up your story with facts I would have checked book time and seen what was involved. Make model and year. Take care as well.
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  #48  
Old 10-14-2019, 08:10 PM
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Ken07AOVette Ken07AOVette is offline
 
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Originally Posted by hogie View Post
That says a lot. Back up your story with facts I would have checked book time and seen what was involved. Make model and year. Take care as well.
Ha. I have been down this road with facts and someone else says I am making up the facts, 'get that from wikipedia'? that sort of feces.

But thanks for the shot on my character, 'that says a lot'.
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Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck
I wasn't thinking far enough ahead for an outcome, I was ranting. By definition, a rant doesn't imply much forethought.....
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  #49  
Old 10-14-2019, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette View Post
Ha. I have been down this road with facts and someone else says I am making up the facts, 'get that from wikipedia'? that sort of feces.

But thanks for the shot on my character, 'that says a lot'.
Ken

Just ignore the provocation and I know how hard it is to do. Never ceases to amaze me how many keyboard warriors there are. Don't know a guy, have no idea that u have spent decades building a reputation as a good guy and an honest person and thinks it is perfectly acceptable to call you a liar. In my world and yours there is no bigger insult. We don't make things up or make claims to having done or seen things we haven't. No one has EVER called me a liar to my face twice and I strongly suspect the same.e is true of you. Unfortunately in the world of anonymous jerks a guy can't really defend his honor. Best to just ignore them and take it for the zero value their opinion carrys in the world that matters to honorable people.
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  #50  
Old 10-14-2019, 08:58 PM
hogie hogie is offline
 
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Ken

Just ignore the provocation and I know how hard it is to do. Never ceases to amaze me how many keyboard warriors there are. Don't know a guy, have no idea that u have spent decades building a reputation as a good guy and an honest person and thinks it is perfectly acceptable to call you a liar. In my world and yours there is no bigger insult. We don't make things up or make claims to having done or seen things we haven't. No one has EVER called me a liar to my face twice and I strongly suspect the same.e is true of you. Unfortunately in the world of anonymous jerks a guy can't really defend his honor. Best to just ignore them and take it for the zero value their opinion carrys in the world that matters to honorable people.
I'm honest as well and don't lie. I've spent time building a reputation as an honest mechanic as well. You don't know me any more than I know you.

Perhaps the person who told this wasn't telling the truth. Ken is reporting it as the truth .

I have been a flat rate tech for many years. So when I don't think something sounds right I call it out .

This is about backing up claims. In my experience as a flat rate tech I don't feel that this is possible. Maybe I'm wrong, wouldn't be the first time and I will apologize for it. I'm asking for make , model year and what is being done . I'm really not asking for much. I'll look up the times and I'm sure there are other members here that can do this as well. See what's involved in the procedure to do it and give my opinion on whether it makes sense or not.

Maybe I'm being a jerk in your eyes but I'm only asking for more info on what was stated. I guess it's ok to say whatever you want if you post more.
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  #51  
Old 10-14-2019, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by hogie View Post
I'm honest as well and don't lie. I've spent time building a reputation as an honest mechanic as well. You don't know me any more than I know you. Perhaps the person who told this wasn't telling the truth. Ken is reporting it as the truth . I have been a flat rate tech for many years. So when I don't think something sounds right I call it out .
This is about backing up claims. In my experience as a flat rate tech I don't feel that this is possible. Maybe I'm wrong, wouldn't be the first time and I will apologize for it. I'm asking for make , model year and what is being done . I'm really not asking for much. I'll look up the times and I'm sure there are other members here that can do this as well. See what's involved in the procedure to do it and give my opinion on whether it makes sense or not.
Maybe I'm being a jerk in your eyes but I'm only asking for more info on what was stated. I guess it's ok to say whatever you want if you post more.
You want me to call my friend, a licensed mechanic and explain to him that I need to get specifics regarding a past job that he is in dealings with the labor board for a hunting forum disagreement so you can attempt to pick apart my reply. If I am right, you go 'ok, well there you go'.

Pass

If you owned every shop and this affects your wallet, I understand but taking this so personally does not make sense to me.
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Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck
I wasn't thinking far enough ahead for an outcome, I was ranting. By definition, a rant doesn't imply much forethought.....
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  #52  
Old 10-14-2019, 09:53 PM
hogie hogie is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette View Post
You want me to call my friend, a licensed mechanic and explain to him that I need to get specifics regarding a past job that he is in dealings with the labor board for a hunting forum disagreement so you can attempt to pick apart my reply. If I am right, you go 'ok, well there you go'.

Pass

If you owned every shop and this affects your wallet, I understand but taking this so personally does not make sense to me.
Well this hunting forum does let threads happen all the time about the auto repair trade and the majority of it is negative.

I do understand how guys get frustrated with it. I have my frustration with it as well as I believe that there is a small amount of shops that give it a bad reputation. Small shops and dealerships have both taken advantage of over charging.

Your friends times seem really out there. From experience if you get the right jobs there is a chance to maybe double your time. Those jobs don't show up one after the other for extended periods. Lots of jobs I make an extra 5 or 10minutes. That over a day could be an extra couple of hours. I'm moving to do that, I don't take breaks except for lunch. Many days lunch is 30 minutes hoping to get the next job. I have to pay for my tools out of my wage as well, I'm sure there is over $40000 of them.
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  #53  
Old 10-14-2019, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by hogie View Post
Well this hunting forum does let threads happen all the time about the auto repair trade and the majority of it is negative.

I do understand how guys get frustrated with it. I have my frustration with it as well as I believe that there is a small amount of shops that give it a bad reputation. Small shops and dealerships have both taken advantage of over charging.

Your friends times seem really out there. From experience if you get the right jobs there is a chance to maybe double your time. Those jobs don't show up one after the other for extended periods. Lots of jobs I make an extra 5 or 10minutes. That over a day could be an extra couple of hours. I'm moving to do that, I don't take breaks except for lunch. Many days lunch is 30 minutes hoping to get the next job. I have to pay for my tools out of my wage as well, I'm sure there is over $40000 of them.
All valid points. I couldn't replace my tools for $40g, and I am not a mechanic. I understand the cost, also that they are a required expense that gets written off.
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Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck
I wasn't thinking far enough ahead for an outcome, I was ranting. By definition, a rant doesn't imply much forethought.....
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  #54  
Old 10-14-2019, 10:11 PM
hogie hogie is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette View Post
All valid points. I couldn't replace my tools for $40g, and I am not a mechanic. I understand the cost, also that they are a required expense that gets written off.
I got screwed over on government on that because they only allow so much a year. Most of mine were aquired before that was in effect. When I started there was no help.

Apprentices can claim more, I think almost all of them. Journeyman only $1500 a year. Need to have the shop sign off as well. That will probably be taken away. Made it a pain to do.

Insurance is another big one. My tools aren't insured by the shop. Needs to be bought separately. It's not cheap, I figure I'll change careers if they burn. They don't hold value like they used to.
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  #55  
Old 10-14-2019, 10:17 PM
roper1 roper1 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Dean2 View Post
Ken

Just ignore the provocation and I know how hard it is to do. Never ceases to amaze me how many keyboard warriors there are. Don't know a guy, have no idea that u have spent decades building a reputation as a good guy and an honest person and thinks it is perfectly acceptable to call you a liar. In my world and yours there is no bigger insult. We don't make things up or make claims to having done or seen things we haven't. No one has EVER called me a liar to my face twice and I strongly suspect the same.e is true of you. Unfortunately in the world of anonymous jerks a guy can't really defend his honor. Best to just ignore them and take it for the zero value their opinion carrys in the world that matters to honorable people.
Full disclosure...I think you're an upfront guy & value your posts here.

But I'm curious, are you saying you've had more than one person call you a liar to your face?
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  #56  
Old 10-15-2019, 05:28 AM
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58thecat 58thecat is offline
 
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Originally Posted by jstubbs View Post
A guy I knew once referred to himself as a ďpart time hunting guide, full time Argo mechanicĒ lol.
Exactly....son ran them for work one summer....used to spray old lease sites for weeds etc....some places were marshy to get into....12hr days....4hrs of repairs.

Pure crap!
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  #57  
Old 10-15-2019, 05:55 AM
russ russ is offline
 
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Originally Posted by ctd View Post
Flat rate is such a joke. Originally was based on a time estimate for the average time so the customer knew what to expect the bill to come to. AKA quote.
Them the industry said yup that's the charge.
I can honestly say I have never been charged flat rate unless it came under the hours. But over the estimate and it was lots of well this happened and that happened. We had to replace this also and that also. But we have you a deal.

For example replacing a clutch, changing tranny/transfer case fluid.

Flat rate shop
Replace clutch 8.5hrs
Rear main seal 1.5hrs
Tranny fluid 1.5 hrs
Transfer case 1.5hrs
Replace slave cylinder 1.5hrs
Shop rate $165hr
Total book hrs 14.5hrs
Labour only book cost $2392.5
Parts flat rate shop
Stock clutch $3500
Slave cylinder $700
Tranny/Transfer case fluid $162
Rear main seal $210
Total $6964

Local shop quote 8 hrs
replace clutch 8hrs (actual time 6hrs)
rear main seal .5hrs
tranny fluid .5
Replace slave cylinder 1.5hrs
After market clutch $1775 slave kit included
shop rate $110hr
Total book/quote time 11hrs
Tranny/transfer case fluid $72
Rear main seal $110
Total $2892

actual labour only charged 8.5hrs flat rate shop charges me to change out my tranny oil but actually didnt do it, stating it was life time.oil in there. But they took my money. The clutch they were installing was not guaranteed to hold anymore power then my stock one and it was going to use the same fly wheel. Wheres the after market included a new fly wheel.

Local shop quoted 8 hours to change out the clutch which included the changing the slave cylinder. Actual time change 6 hrs. Tranny and transfer case drain and fill was done while performing other tasks. They charged me .5hr extra for the rear main seal because it wasnt originally in the estimate. Since it took no time at all since everything was already out.

Difference between flat rate shop and local hourly/quote shop is
$4072 difference for the same job.

When questioned on the cost at the flat rate shop they stated that's how we charge.

To go further the local shop actually worked at the flat rate place and were tired of unfair practices and customers being ripped off.
So they started their own shop and have only grown substantially since then.
Its funny. I was always told the Journayman was working on all my trucks and had inspected everytime an apprentice asssited to fix anything. Turns out the apprentice worked on their own with little to any supervision until somthing went wrong.
After many many hours of frustration and major screwups I stopped going to the flat rate shops. Guess what i have not been over billed and under serviced since.
The first shop isn't using flat rate properly, some of those operations are repetitive and the time needs to be combined. That's why there's add's in the guide.
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  #58  
Old 10-15-2019, 06:44 PM
ctd ctd is offline
 
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Originally Posted by russ View Post
The first shop isn't using flat rate properly, some of those operations are repetitive and the time needs to be combined. That's why there's add's in the guide.
My problem is this is one example I have personally dealt with. I have probably 20 or 30 more dealings over similar charges. Had I not spoke up they would have taken thousands of my money. I cant but believe that they take in the cash from unsuspecting customers by over charging them.
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Old 10-15-2019, 09:03 PM
roper1 roper1 is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
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Originally Posted by Dean2 View Post
Ken

Just ignore the provocation and I know how hard it is to do. Never ceases to amaze me how many keyboard warriors there are. Don't know a guy, have no idea that u have spent decades building a reputation as a good guy and an honest person and thinks it is perfectly acceptable to call you a liar. In my world and yours there is no bigger insult. We don't make things up or make claims to having done or seen things we haven't. No one has EVER called me a liar to my face twice and I strongly suspect the same.e is true of you. Unfortunately in the world of anonymous jerks a guy can't really defend his honor. Best to just ignore them and take it for the zero value their opinion carrys in the world that matters to honorable people.
You see any irony here ?
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