Cypress Hills: Any Elk Left or...

[KI-UTE]

Any elk left down in the Cypress Hills or did those stupid ignorant cougars that were mis-managed and left to breed out of control eat them all? Me and the wife have some priority down there, but is there any point in going there? What kind of success rate on elk in the park.

[PBHunter]

Originally Posted by KI-UTE

stupid ignorant cougars .

Why are the cougars stupid and ignorant? They are just doing what they do ... eat, sleep, reproduce ... if you had called the PEOPLE that are in charge of tending to our wildlife stupid / ignorant ok ... but you can't get mad at the animals for doing what they do ... bet the elk are stupid and ignorant when they destroy the haystacks as well.

[KI-UTE]

Who needs 70 cougars in Cypress Hills? Can you imagine how many game animals that we are missing out on to feed 70+ large cats. The land could handle a few in such a small area as what the Cypress Hills has, like a token population. Where are the numbers from? Two years ago there were 45 cats documented plus 2 years of reproduction.

Yes the game managers are that and worse. I don't understand this concept of mismanagement of our wildlife resource, let the large predators take over completely unchecked... the end. Very strange. People in game management should be held accountable, and people should lose jobs over stupidity, govt or not, union or non.

So there is a whack of these rotten cats that need to be wiped out. They desperately need to be put into check. A place like Cypress can handle a few cats but definitely not 50+.

So when all's said and done, what's the chance of getting an elk from down there? Are there any left?

[PBHunter]

Cool, good answer and I totally agree .. in your answer you basically state that you wish to see the numbers of these predators controlled more in order to allow a better balance in the ecosystem .. something that, in our day and age, is left up to people to do, not so much nature anymore ... implying that it is the people in charge of the situation that could be either ignorant or stupid ... my issue with your statement in the first post was that the animals themselves were both ignorant and stupid ... it is nice to see that you do actiually respect these creatures and feel they have a place in our world and not just a kill'em all type mentality ...
As for the elk hunting ... have no idea, have never hunted elk in cypress sorry ;(

[pikergolf]

Was out for a hike in May and saw one watching us, it moved into shadow and watched us from about 800 yds.

[CHIPPAB]

Hi KI-UTE,

Overall hunter success in the Elk Management hunt last year was around 35% which is typical for us. Some weeks we're as high as 60%, others as low as 10%, but this is largely influenced by the weather. I believe this compares favorably to other elk hunts in the province.

The elk population remains robust and in the range we are wanting to maintain. The ecosystem is in fact balanced if your only metric is the health of game species, though deer took a bit of a pounding from the heavy winters in 2009 and 2010. Not sure where your concerns of mismanagment are coming from, but am happy to chat about specifics.

I encourage you to come down and try the hunt if you are successful in the draw - we commonly receive many kudos for the work our Conservation Officers do in making the hunt a success and a very enjoyable experience for the hunters.

Sincerely,

Peter Swain
District Manager
Cypress Hills Interprovincial Park-AB

[Nester]

Been on two trips down to Cypress Hills for elk and been snowed out both times

[cmahussier]

I was there for the lat week of the 2010 season. Very cold with daytime highs of -25c. A couple of scouting trips and lots of walking found us in the elk. Tons or road hunters but I managed to get a very good 6x6 that grossed 339 and netted 327. He was with 6 other bulls and was the biggest of the group. CO,s said he was the biggest to come out of the park that year but there was still a couple days left in the season. I did see 3 Cougars there and tons of deer. Wished I could hunt deer there! I am applying there again and hope to get as lucky as I did in 2010. I Have maps for sale for all the zones that cost me $130 will sell for 60 plus shipping. Good Luck if you get drawn. Great hunt and would recomend it to anyone. Tons of crown land with no need to beg for permission.

[scrapper]

Don't eat all that crap about the Cougars they have had almost zero impact on the Elk. The elk poulation is growing, so much the Sask side has even had a spring cow hunt. Most of the elk are outside of the park on ranch land, anyone who tells you there are 70 Cougars in the park are about 50 high, the twenty or so that are actually there feed almost 100% on mule deer, why kill an elk when the mule deer out number elk 10 to 1 and are easier to catch and kill. Hell I live in the area and the cougars don't even bother the cattle.

Why must we all just assume because there is a wild natural predator in the area they must all be killed...guess what there are lots of elk for everyone cougars included....relax the odds of the Elk being killed by a cougar are about the same as you getting drawn in the area.....real slim.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by scrapper

Don't eat all that crap about the Cougars they have had almost zero impact on the Elk. :

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

you betcha! 1500ish in 2002 down to 600ish in 2007. nope, the explosion of cougars had nothing to do with that. of course at least one elk did fight back and killed the big male that they collared. he is supposed to be on display at the warden office,m but considering the taxidermist they chose, it might be another 3 or 4 years until he is done.

you are right though that 70 is a tad high. i think michelle bacon confirmed 28 IIRC as of 2009. estimates ranged possibly as high as 35. pretty tough to say for sure though as they seem to be moving around a ton and well outside the park boundary. you are also correct that the elk are again on the rise. when the cats first blew up in numbers, the elk didnt know how to deal with them. they are learning though. deer too.

[scrapper]

Honestly blaming the elk decline on a few Cougars and BTW that population also crashed is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. That big drop in population you talk about was caused by the same late spring snow storms that wiped out all the newborn antelope thats ame yea yes that year. It wiped out easily 97% of the area antelope young.They had almost 5 feet of snow in the hills that spring.

Anyone that thinks there is a cougar behind every tree out there is either an idiot or just badly misinformed. Half the people that say they saw a cougar didn't and the other half actually saw a coyote...but a cougar story sounds better. You could be out there everyday for the next five years and never see a cougar. My god people get a grip we have people on here claiming there are 70 cougars other blaming the loss of 500 or elk on 20 Cougars most of that number are kittens. My god people who are you trying to impress with all this BS.

Back to the original question...yes there are lots of elk and no the cougars are not killing them all, frankly the cougars are taking only the old and weak which is actually making the heard stronger and healthier. And no we do not need a bunch of vigilante goofs running around the hills with dreams of killing 70 Cougars and thinking they are somehow saviors of the Elk population.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by scrapper

Honestly blaming the elk decline on a few Cougars and BTW that population also crashed is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. That big drop in population you talk about was caused by the same late spring snow storms that wiped out all the newborn antelope thats ame yea yes that year. :

you paid attention to the years that i posted right? you have heard of michelle bacon right? her research showed some irrefutable evidence once those cats were collared. that big drop in population was at the same time as the cougar numbers grew by a lot. the winter that lasted all spring was only a year ago.....not 2007. actually, according to the counts that bad winter didnt seem to affect the elk as much as other species for whatever reason. i havent heard this years number yet, but it has been rising.

pm me an email address and ill send you along a copy of the results of michelles study. sounds like you could use some reading on the subject.

[scrapper]

Wow that was some bad typing but you get my drift 20 Cougars did not kill 900 Elk in two years....duh....

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by scrapper

Wow that was some bad typing but you get my drift 20 Cougars did not kill 900 Elk in two years....duh....

2002 to 2007 is 2 years? i dunno about the typing, but that is some bad math....

so is 20 cougars.... that number is your opinion. the fact is that the number identified was higher, and estimates even higher yet. dont forget the wolves out there. i dont blame cougars entirely, as they had some help, but when the carcasses were found and photographed its pretty hard to say they werent eating elk.

[scrapper]

Yes I have gone to hear Michelle speak on more than one occassion last time at the college, read all her work and that is exactly why I know anyone blaming the death of 900 elk on 20 or less cougars is pretty much stretching this more than just a little. Anyone and I repeat anyone who has spent anytime in those hills knows dam well the cougars have been there for thirty years or longer and they feed almost exclusively on mule deer. They also know the only real reason the cougars even have a presence out there is because of the deer population. Truth be know there are probably more wolves coming up from Montana in the past few years then there are cougars.

Lets all just stick to facts and save all the BS for our closest friends. Were gonna have a bunch of Gortex clad rednecks running around telling the world the Cypress hills is being over run by cougars, while are the locals know thatr is just plain and simple a load of crap.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by scrapper

Yes I have gone to hear Michelle speak on more than one occassion ............. 20 or less cougars .

if you have read her data and heard her deliver it, then how can you guess less than 20?

[scrapper]

Yes there are wolves and if you know anything about wolves you will know wolves do not put up with cougars in their territory, since Michelle ended her study two years ago the cougar population has been decline, And that snow I'm talking about try 2008 If you do not remember the may long weekend storm that dropped 5 feet on the hills you are not from around here. That was the snow fall that cleaned out the antelope, and took a heavy toll on the elk calving season, again I urge you to stick to the facts, hell you are the one who in an earlier post blamed the loss of 900 elk on 20 or so cougars....pretty good indication of how much you know about elk population in the hills I would suggest. Think about your claim 900 Elk 20 maybe 30 cougars.....wow seriously give me a break.

[scrapper]

Have you read the info on the study from the Sask group....did you even know they did their own study???? I guess not

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by scrapper

Have you read the info on the study from the Sask group....did you even know they did their own study???? I guess not

your numbers are not making sense. you seem to want to convonce me that your guesses are more important than known facts. id suggest checking those dates once again....you still havent got it right for the period im referring to. you might also guess right about where im from as you didnt seem to notice my location in every post. sorry, logic cant compete with emotion. i learned that from the women in my life so im gonna bow out now. oh, and yes im aware of the info from the sask studies. changes nothing from the year 02 to 07. cya.

[KI-UTE]

So scrapper, you obviously don't realize that these animals breed and expand in population rapidly. Female cougars routinely have 3 kittens, even four. You sound so pro-cougar and try to talk down the cougar impact of our big game that I really question if you actually hunt or care about hunting. It all sounds like Defenders of Wildlife arguments and silly talk. Cougars only kill the sick and the weak??? Come on... please... get your head back above ground! You are sounding oxygen deprived! Just kidding of course. I love you dearly! They do kill the sick and the weak... however they also kill the young and the middle aged as well as the strongest of the strong. Cougars are unbelievable killing machines, your unbelief and our knowledge of what they all kill proves that. Oh ya, the bull elk that killed the legendary dead cat, what does that tell you?

So anyways if you had only one golden female, that has 4 kittens every other year, in 10 years she will have 20 kittens.

Then those kittens grow up and have kittens and of those that grow up, some are golden reproducers and mothers. At ten years in, you have a cougar reproductive machine that gets out of control. We are about ten years into this new cougar population.

The study that I read stated that there were 45 cougars in the Cypress Hills area, I believe the "summary" was from 2010". Two more springs of three kitten litters that these cats seem to have on a regular basis. That means that scrapper can't solve a math puzzle with his answer of "only 20 cats and most are kittens!" I bet you believe, scrapper, that that number "20" cats never changes much from year to year, that you believe it to be basically a constant???

We had a real nice balance of wildlife in the southern Alberta prairies before the cougar population exploded. Now we have this nasty imbalance happening. I am sure you are having a lot of fun pretending to be factual in all of your arguments, but they are backed by nothing... baseless!!! But on the internet you can stand there all puffed up and pretend that you are all knowing... you do not fool me.

If there were only 20 cougars and most are kittens you say as you continue to pretend, then why would SRD go and open up all the 100 zones to a shoot on sight November cougar tag. If there were only 20 cats, this would not warrant this response, which by the way was a very nice token "pretend response" to the problem at hand, a mass explosion of the big cats on the prairie. They made it look good to the hunter, a new unprecedented cat season. But they didn't allow the hunters time nor the tools to get much done. Again a token season which simply tries to get the uninformed hunter excited and make it look like they are actually trying to manage wildlife.

An over-populated and unchecked cougar population will be very detrimental to many species of animals. It may have looked fine a couple years ago when there was abundant game, but factor in the winter of 2010/2011 and it's effect on the ungulates, and attempt to have that population recover in this new era of the cat, well I guess we'll see how long that takes.

Chippab, thanks for the response. Its good to hear that there's still a few elk left to shoot. How many hunters per hunt are we looking at these days? The last time I hunted, I believe there were 10 hunts of 50 hunters. The park was supporting a beautiful number and healthy population of elk and hunters. It was a real pleasure back then when there was good numbers of elk to be able to hunt during the rut, being able to call elk in within park boundaries during a rifle season , to be able to hear them bugling steadily.

However, I see that is a thing of the past in Cypress Hills, we are down to 4 hunts, all of which are in November with no regard to quality of the hunt for the hunter in terms of the elk rut. How many hunters per hunt? the 30% success sounds like nothing has changed and the angle you are coming from, what has not changed is the hunters' hunting habits. So what I am saying is if now there are only 20 tags per hunt, there would only be an average of 6 elk shot per 4 day hunt compared to 15 shot per 4 day hunt 7 years ago. Then comparatively you'ld be having 24 elk shot in a one season period compared to the 150 shot per season 6-7 seasons ago?

"Wildlife Mis-management" /ˈwīldˌlīf/; /ˈmis-manijmənt/ (definition): The allowance of certain species of native fauna to reproduce wildly in an unbalanced and/or unchecked manner resulting in negative, even catastrophic imapacts to other species of wild fauna; the height of which is such continuance of management of species at the top of the food chain.

[Nait Hadya]

Originally Posted by scrapper

Yes there are wolves and if you know anything about wolves you will know wolves do not put up with cougars in their territory.......

That is funny.

[pikergolf]

I think the cougars are having a tough time finding enough to eat or are being driven out of the hills in Territorial skirmishes. Almost ever rancher that I talked to from seven persons to Walsh when I was getting permission for calling coyotes, told me to watch my back there have be cougar sightings on my land. There was one captured by I don't know which Gov. Dept a few miles of Seven Persons, and I was told of three that had been shot by ranchers. So ya we have a problem as most of my coyote hunting is done north of the hills. With the deer population down i honestly believe there will be an incident fairly soon. I asked one of the ranchers out at the hills about cattle and he said they don't bother them, he thinks it's because a calf will stand and look which may put the cat off. Seems funny all these young stupid calves and they rather chase elk. I do know the deer population is way down from where it historically was, I don't know why maybe weather, over hunting maybe cougars, but the figure that scrapper threw out about 10 mule deer for ever elk in the hills is not even close, neither is his 5 feet of snow storm. 5 ft lol that's a lot of snow.

[PBHunter]

I am not aware of the studies you guys are discussing based in the Cypress area ... but there was a pretty good article in April 2012 Alberta Outdoorsmen magazine titled "Cougars and Cattle" by Dr Mark Boyce ... this article bascially summed up a study involving radiocalled cougars in the Waterton area, looking at what these animals were feeding on to see if cougars were actually killing cattle ... now the waterton area has a decent population of elk, as well as, deer, sheep, goats etc... the study clearly shows that the cougars there did not feed on cattle, and overwhelmingly prefered deer as there main food source. Suprisingly, to me anyhow, moose were there second most desirable prey, followed by beavers ... elk were actually third possibly fourth on the list ... Of the elk / moose being consumed by the cats, juveniles were prefered to adults, but when it came to deer, age distribution of the prey was more evenly spread between young and old. Would be nice to see the results of a simialr study out of cypress ... also, just because a mother cat can have 3-4 kittens annually, does not mean all of those kittens survive to become eating machines.

[Jadham]

Originally Posted by PBHunter

I am not aware of the studies you guys are discussing based in the Cypress area ... but there was a pretty good article in April 2012 Alberta Outdoorsmen magazine titled "Cougars and Cattle" by Dr Mark Boyce ... this article bascially summed up a study involving radiocalled cougars in the Waterton area, looking at what these animals were feeding on to see if cougars were actually killing cattle ... now the waterton area has a decent population of elk, as well as, deer, sheep, goats etc... the study clearly shows that the cougars there did not feed on cattle, and overwhelmingly prefered deer as there main food source. Suprisingly, to me anyhow, moose were there second most desirable prey, followed by beavers ... elk were actually third possibly fourth on the list ... Of the elk / moose being consumed by the cats, juveniles were prefered to adults, but when it came to deer, age distribution of the prey was more evenly spread between young and old. Would be nice to see the results of a simialr study out of cypress ... also, just because a mother cat can have 3-4 kittens annually, does not mean all of those kittens survive to become eating machines.

Please don't post rational and well balanced thoughts. Only polarized opinions are sought after on this forum.

[scrapper]

Ki-Ute....honestly give us all a break do you have any idea on what the survival rate versus mortality of kittens in the Cougar population is, you live in a pretty blue sky world if you think every kitten that is born survives and grows up to kill elk and make more cougars....scheesh. Look there is no denying there are cougars in the area, but there has been cougars in the area forever, that is not a bad thing, there are a few stories a year about cougars attacking a mare with a foal, there are a few stories anbout cougars taking down an old cow and maybe a calf or two.

But to come on to this forum and read about 70 cougars in Cypress hills, an ego system that even an idiot would know could not support 25 full time just based on the kinown cougar territory and range. To have some local who claims Cougars are responsible for the death of 900 Elk over a few years, hell 30 Cougars couldn't consume 900 Elk if we butchered and fed it to them three times a day, and then that same local can't recall what amounts to the most significant late spring snowfall in the area in recorded history that played a huge roll in the population of Elk Antelope deer, almost wiped out the partridge and pheasant population in the area. Boy oh boy you really have to wonder where some of these self professed experts get their information.

Truth of the matter is the story about the Elk population is a little boring when for the most part the decline can be blamed on migration to the Sask side of the park which is about double the size of Alberta when you consider the eastern extension along the bench all the way to Piapot Tompkins area. The fact that 90 % of Cougar sightings are transiant Toms moving on a Natural game corridor from the Musselshell area of central montana, up through the Bear paw mountain range through the hills then on to the sandills to the South Sask river sytem where those animals can freely move east and west. Add to that a four year study done by Michelle Bacon that clearly states the main food source for the Cypress Hill cougar population is MULE DEER and small game such as rabbits.

Guess what people a healthy sustained cougar and or wolf population is good for the Elk heard, and the ego system. As a true sportsman /hunter /conservationist we all know that. We all see what happens when a population gets out of hand due to lack of natural predators and desease sets in, we only have to look at results chronic wasting desease in the white tail deer herd to know that.

My advice for all is to quit this hocus pocus BS about cougars in the hills, stick to the facts and most of all be tolerant of all wild life within an ego system. And for some maybe a little less Walt Disney logic, Cougars wolves and any other predators are not the root of all evil I hate to be the one who breaks your bubble but Little Red riding hood and the big bad wolf.......yes that is actually fiction not fact....really....its not a true story.....

[PBHunter]

[QUOTE=scrapper;1495718]. Add to that a four year study done by Michelle Bacon that clearly states the main food source for the Cypress Hill cougar population is MULE DEER and small game such as rabbits
QUOTE]

Seems to agree with the study out of the Waterton area.

[Matt L.]

[QUOTE=PBHunter;1495754]

Originally Posted by scrapper

. Add to that a four year study done by Michelle Bacon that clearly states the main food source for the Cypress Hill cougar population is MULE DEER and small game such as rabbits
QUOTE]

Seems to agree with the study out of the Waterton area.

Now to get some people to actually look at those studies...

[smith88]

Originally Posted by scrapper

We all see what happens when a population gets out of hand due to lack of natural predators and desease sets in, we only have to look at results chronic wasting desease in the white tail deer herd to know that.

CWD affected mule deer mainly, with 12 of 19 positive testing being form mule deer males, 5 mule deer females and 2 whitetail males. These are from Alberta and from submitted heads.

http://joomla.wildlife.org/alberta/i...ate%202011.pdf

[PBHunter]

[QUOTE=Matt L.;1495778]

Originally Posted by PBHunter

Now to get some people to actually look at those studies...

The waterton study is nicely summerized in the April 2012 AO mag ... go have a read

[ishootbambi]

[QUOTE=Matt L.;1495778]

Originally Posted by PBHunter

Now to get some people to actually look at those studies...

if anyone wants to have a look at that study i have a copy of it in pdf. its is 88 pages so i wont post it here, but if you want to see it, pm me an email addy and ill send it along.

some highlights from it show that deer account for over 80% of confirmed kills, and 15% were elk. one thing i thought strange about it was how few turkeys cats ate. anyone who has been to the park knows that turkeys are abundant, and to me at least would seem an easy meal for a cougar. heck, i bet i could catch one if i tried.

anyway, lets try some simple math. lets go with a low estimate of 20 cougars. from 2002-2007, which is the years i mentioned regarding elk population, that 6 year period shows an average decline of 150 elk per year, or roughly 3 per week. i know it isnt that simple with reproduction and whatnot, but the reduction is real. by the way, those numbers i tossed out came from the local biologists and include both sides of the border. cypress hills is considered one population and not separated as alberta and saskatchewan, so migration between the two is irrelevant. anyway, divide that 150 a year by 20 cougars and you get around 7 per year. does that number seem unreasonable? that would be around one elk per cat every 7 weeks give or take. it isnt that much. dont forget the wolves too, and even the coyotes get the odd calf. they made a dent in the elk population no matter how much anyone wants to argue. im still not sure what the spring of 2008 had to do with thses numbers though?


i do wish i could quote conversations, as 1500 was what the bios said was the 2002 elk populatiuon. february 2002 was the year they held a special quota hunt to try to reduce the herds as they were considered far too high. im going from memory here, but IIRC there were 24 elk taken on 100 tags. 22 of them were bulls and the bios were pretty disappointed with that. everyone knows that you need to take cows to really make a dent in popualtion, but park satff was pretty set against allowing that hunt inside the park boundary. if anyone is wondering, i killed a bull in fall 2001 so didnt need another for meat. i made the mistake of passing a herd of cows early on day 1, and held out for a good bull that i could see but not get to. it was the only chance i had. i know...poor decision. anyway, i believe it was 2007 that bios pegged the umber aroun 600 or so, and tag numbers for hunter reflected that. like i said, havent heard a number lately, but maybe CHIPPAB could offer it up?


so yeah, ill forward the study to those who want to see it firsthand. pm your email if you want a look.