When is a Rifle a Shotgun?

walking buffalo · #1 10-26-2012, 02:35 PM

Another hunting regulation question. Cut me some slack.

Can a Centerfire Rifle be legally considered a "Shotgun" for the purpose of hunting big-game in Alberta?

catnthehat · #2 10-26-2012, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Another hunting regulation question. Cut me some slack.

Can a Centerfire Rifle be legally considered a "Shotgun" for the purpose of hunting big-game in Alberta?

A shotgun can be used as a rifle, but a rifle cannot be used as a shotgun unless it has a shotgun barrel- then it would be a shotgun.

The savage bolt ction shotgun is a loophole in the regs IIRC it is rifled but takes a shotgun shell ?
Combination guns ( shotgun and riufle barrels) of course can be used but only the shotgun barrel not the rifle.
This is only my opinion, mind you, I'm sure there will be someone else that has an oposing view.

Cat

Lefty-Canuck · #3 10-26-2012, 02:47 PM

When my rifles are shooting poorly (yes the rifle....not me) they are shotguns....you should see the spray pattern on some of my targets!

LC

AMisler · #4 10-26-2012, 02:48 PM

There is such a thing as .22 calibre birdshot rifle ammo. Saw it for the first the this summer

catnthehat · #5 10-26-2012, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AMisler

There is such a thing as .22 calibre birdshot rifle ammo. Saw it for the first the this summer

The question however,was about big game , not small game .
Cat

AMisler · #6 10-26-2012, 02:53 PM

Just figured I'd throw it out there :P

Okotokian · #7 10-26-2012, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Another hunting regulation question. Cut me some slack.

Can a Centerfire Rifle be legally considered a "Shotgun" for the purpose of hunting big-game in Alberta?

Sure. You got a centerfire rifle with a gauge greater than .410 to be legal?

What's behind the Q Buffalo?

huntin'fool · #8 10-26-2012, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Okotokian

Sure. You got a centerfire rifle with a gauge greater than .410 to be legal?

What's behind the Q Buffalo?

What's behind the question, I reckon, is whether you can get away with using a rifle in a primitive weapons season.

Not sure the answer to the question though. Interesting topic though, you'd think they might have to define shotgun under the Wildlife Act.

Okotokian · #9 10-26-2012, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by huntin'fool

What's behind the question, I reckon, is whether you can get away with using a rifle in a primitive weapons season.

Not sure the answer to the question though. Interesting topic though, you'd think they might have to define shotgun under the Wildlife Act.

Regardless of definition, the regs say a shotgun used for big game must be more than .410, so obviously trying to use a 30-06 would not meet the standard, even if you tried to somehow inanely argue that it was a shotgun.

duffy4 · #10 10-26-2012, 03:13 PM

Maybe there needs to be a definition of a "shotgun" and of a "rifle".

A fellow can have a bolt action long-arm that has rifling in the barrel and shoots a single projectile. Is it a rifle or a shot gun?

walking buffalo · #11 10-26-2012, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Okotokian

Sure. You got a centerfire rifle with a gauge greater than .410 to be legal?

What's behind the Q Buffalo?

Exactly what I am thinking.

A rifle must be of .23 caliber or greater to be legal for big game. I don't know of a maximum caliber limit. Any answers to this?

A shotgun must be .410 - .775 (10 guage) caliber (inclusive).

It is legal to use a shotgun with a "rifled" barrel.

Using a legal bullet/slug, wouldn't any centerfire of .410 - .755 caliber be legal to use as a "shotgun"?

What's behind this?

1) Curiousity,
2) Thoughts on shotgun/muzzy hunts. Those muzzy elitists and their 300 yard long-distance shooting.

3) A 212 tag and this....http://www.gunstar.co.uk/Antique-Rif...e-gs97101.aspx

duffy4 · #12 10-26-2012, 03:51 PM

Thats kind of circular logic.

If I understand you you are using the dia. of the bullet to define if the weapon is a shotgun or a rifle???

Federal loads 20 go sabot shells with a Barnes Expander bullet but doesn't say what the dia is. It could be 50 cal or 45 cal. I would say that would not allow one to hunt with a 45 or 50 cal rifle and say it is the same as a shotgun.

catnthehat · #13 10-26-2012, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Exactly what I am thinking.

A rifle must be of .23 caliber or greater to be legal for big game. I don't know of a maximum caliber limit. Any answers to this?

A shotgun must be .410 - .775 (10 guage) caliber (inclusive).

It is legal to use a shotgun with a "rifled" barrel.

Using a legal bullet/slug, wouldn't any centerfire of .410 - .755 caliber be legal to use as a "shotgun"?

What's behind this?

1) Curiousity,
2) Thoughts on shotgun/muzzy hunts. Those muzzy elitists and their 300 yard long-distance shooting.

3) A 212 tag and this....http://www.gunstar.co.uk/Antique-Rif...e-gs97101.aspx

The savage uses shotgun ammo and is rifled.
The link yoou posted is to a Snider- I own anf hut with two of them , but it is not a "primitive " weapon, it's a rifle , althogouth Ii do have some originall shot loads for mine.
However, it's a rifle not a shotgun and the ammo is desiganted so IIRC on the packages I have with the ball ammo.
I'm wrong, it just says "Ball"

Cat

Mike_W · #14 10-26-2012, 04:37 PM

Could it have anything to do with the casing? Plastic vs brass and the high pressures reached?

catnthehat · #15 10-26-2012, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike_W

Could it have anything to do with the casing? Plastic vs brass and the high pressures reached?

The Snider is a low presure load, in fact the cases in that package are in fact paper.
As far as modern shotshells go, The it's hard to know the logic , but case pressure would likley have something to do with it.
The riflesd barrels that Hastings makes for remingtons are very populer and accurate with the shotgun crowd down east .
Cat

walking buffalo · #16 10-26-2012, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duffy4

Thats kind of circular logic.

If I understand you you are using the dia. of the bullet to define if the weapon is a shotgun or a rifle???

Federal loads 20 go sabot shells with a Barnes Expander bullet but doesn't say what the dia is. It could be 50 cal or 45 cal. I would say that would not allow one to hunt with a 45 or 50 cal rifle and say it is the same as a shotgun.

This is Circular logic? Are you an Australian Aborigines?

I am using logic based on all the descriptions available from the Wildlife Act and the Wildlife Regulations. It is quite possible that I missed something in this documents. I am not aware of any source for an Alberta or canadian legal definition of "Rifle" or "Shotgun". There are legal definitions for "Firearms" and "weapons".

If you or anyone else can expand on the legal description of these tools, please help and share.

Quote:

Originally Posted by catnthehat

The savage uses shotgun ammo and is rifled.
The link yoou posted is to a Snider- I own anf hut with two of them , but it is not a "primitive " weapon, it's a rifle , althogouth Ii do have some originall shot loads for mine.
However, it's a rifle not a shotgun and the ammo is desiganted so IIRC on the packages I have with the ball ammo.
I'm wrong, it just says "Ball"

Cat

I share the opinion that the Snider is not a "Primitive" firearm. But Alberta does not define "primitive" firearm beyond the definition of a shotgun or muzzy. Modern in-line muzzleloaders are far from being primitive.

We have big-game hunts in Alberta that resrict legal firearms to shotguns and muzzleloaders, without any reference to "primitive". For this question, a classification of primitive or not does not seem to hold any legal standing.

A Weapon is defined in the Alberta Wildlife Act as :
(kk) “weapon” means a firearm or any other device that propels a projectile by means of an explosion, spring, air, gas, string, wire or elastic material or any combination of those things;

A Firearm is legally defined in the Canadian Firearms Act as:
“firearm” means a barrelled weapon from which any shot, bullet or other projectile can be discharged and that is capable of causing serious bodily injury or death to a person, and includes any frame or receiver of such a barrelled weapon and anything that can be adapted for use as a firearm;

What is the legal definition of a "Rifle"?

What is the legal definition of a "Shotgun"?

Heck, what is the legal definition of a "Muzzleloader"?

Mike_W · #17 10-26-2012, 05:47 PM

Maybe also the fact that a rifle shoots a cartridge and a shot gun shoots a shotshell. A cartridge is brass and necked down exposing the bullet where a shotshell is straight walled and shoots a non exposed projectiles(s)??

catnthehat · #18 10-26-2012, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike_W

Maybe also the fact that a rifle shoots a cartridge and a shot gun shoots a shotshell. A cartridge is brass and necked down exposing the bullet where a shotshell is straight walled and shoots a non exposed projectiles(s)??

I shoot brass shells in some of my shotguns, and have seen exposed lead slugs on others.
However, in the modern day, I suppose it is the plastic case and the pressure more than anything, because there are stright walled rifle cases , too.
Shotguns are very low pressure compared to rifles however.
Cat

Speckle55 · #19 10-26-2012, 06:36 PM

Yes when its a Combo

David

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combination_gun

duffy4 · #20 10-26-2012, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speckle55

Yes when its a Combo

David

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combination_gun

Interesting: in the wiki-definition of the combo gun it has "rifle" and "shotgun" and if you click on those words it takes you to definitions.

Whether or not the barrel is rifled seems an important factor.

So a "shotgun" with a rifled barrel may not really be a "shotgun" at all but a rifle.

And then any "rifle" would never be a "shotgun".

catnthehat · #21 10-26-2012, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duffy4

Interesting: in the wiki-definition of the combo gun it has "rifle" and "shotgun" and if you click on those words it takes you to definitions.

Whether or not the barrel is rifled seems an important factor.

So a "shotgun" with a rifled barrel may not really be a "shotgun" at all but a rifle.

And then any "rifle" would never be a "shotgun".

No, if the shogun has a rifled barrle and takes a shotshell even if it is a slug, it's still a shotgun in the eyes of the law.
Cat

duffy4 · #22 10-26-2012, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by catnthehat

No, if the shogun has a rifled barrle and takes a shotshell even if it is a slug, it's still a shotgun in the eyes of the law.
Cat

Apparently. The eyes of the law is important for the way we do things but often the eyes are cloudy. Especially when it comes to firearms.

However I was saying that at least wiki. uses rifling in the barrel as part of the difference between the two.

Saying it shoots a shot shell is funny as there is no shot in it at all. But a "slug" or a fairly high tech. copper sabot

catnthehat · #23 10-26-2012, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duffy4

Apparently.

Saying it shoots a shot shell is funny as there is no shot in it at all. But a "slug" or a fairly high tech. copper sabot

It's a shotshell hull with a sabotted slug is all.
What comes out of that hull is of little consequnence because the pressure will have the same ceiling.
I load round balls in the same hulls I shoot 7/8oz of 7 1/2's in my 28's and 20's.
The hulls are the same , just the wad a payload are fifferent.
Cat

walking buffalo · #24 10-26-2012, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duffy4

Interesting: in the wiki-definition of the combo gun it has "rifle" and "shotgun" and if you click on those words it takes you to definitions.

Whether or not the barrel is rifled seems an important factor.

So a "shotgun" with a rifled barrel may not really be a "shotgun" at all but a rifle.

And then any "rifle" would never be a "shotgun".

A "Shotgun" is legally defined as having a smoothbore, in the USA, but not in Canada.
Close, but no

.

I can't find anything in the Alberta Wildlife Act or Regulations, nor the Canadian Firearms Act, where the style or material of the ammunition is used to legally define what is a shotgun and what is a rifle.

From what I can find in Alberta and Canada, there is no definition separating these "types" of firearms.

Hmmm..... maybe this is the answer to the OP.

"In Alberta, A "Rifle" is a "Shotgun" when the caliber is .410" or larger."

silver · #25 10-27-2012, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

A shotgun must be .410 - .775 (10 guage) caliber (inclusive).

]

I think the 10 gauge limit only applies to birds, an 8 gauge would be legal for big game

walking buffalo · #26 10-27-2012, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silver

I think the 10 gauge limit only applies to birds, an 8 gauge would be legal for big game

Nope.... from the Wildlife Regulations.

Items prohibited for hunting all wildlife

"7- A shotgun of a gauge greater than 10 gauge."

I did make a mistake earlier. A legal "shotgun" for hunting big-game must be greater than .410 gauge....

This is where the available legislation seems to define a "shotgun" in Alberta for the purpose of hunting big-game

"In Alberta, A "Rifle" is a "Shotgun" when the caliber is between .411 and .775 "

I wonder what Fritze is going to have for lunch when giving his opinion to this question.

Lefty-Canuck · #27 10-27-2012, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

"In Alberta, A "Rifle" is a "Shotgun" when the caliber is between .411 and .775 "

So a Rossi Ranch Hand in .44 magnum is actually a shotgun???

....it has similar effective range.

LC

Mikezilk · #28 10-27-2012, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

So a Rossi Ranch Hand in .44 magnum is actually a shotgun???

....it has similar effective range.

LC

I was just gonna make that point... I have a Rossi .44 Rem Mag I just bought on here.. max velocity I see is 1600 fps muzzle. My .410 shoty slugs have a muzzle velocity of 1625.

I have actually written an email to SRD requesting Legal Definitions from them on this

Lefty-Canuck · #29 10-27-2012, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikezilk

I was just gonna make that point... I have a Rossi .44 Rem Mag I just bought on here.. max velocity I see is 1600 fps muzzle. My .410 shoty slugs have a muzzle velocity of 1625.

I have actually written an email to SRD requesting Legal Definitions from them on this

They can't base it on action type....there are lever action "shotguns"

They can't base it on velocity......similar speeds

They can't base it on projectile type.....solid vs shot

They can't base it on smooth or rifled bore

Curious to see what they come back with....

LC

Mikezilk · #30 10-27-2012, 05:07 PM

I think the .410 in a slug at close range would do as much damage as the .270, .303, and .44 mag

IMO