Is the Venerable .303 British enough for moose?

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

As has been posted, the 303 became popular as a hunting round, because of the abundant supply of cheap surplus rifles ans ammunition. And yes it did fill the role as a hunting cartridge, but the fact is, that with that supply of surplus rifles exhausted, the cartridge has only it's merits to survive on, and we all known that the cartridge is now all but dead. The manufacturers will sell whatever they think that they can make money on, and Ruger did produce a very limited run of the number 1 rifles in 303, but there simply isn't enough interest for any of the manufacturers to chamber a hunting rifle in the 303 chambering. Compared to very practical cartridges like the 308win, which is still a strong seller, the 303 just didn't offer enough to survive on it's merits.

I agree that cheap rifles accounts for the .303s success but I don't agree that is is all but dead now nore do I agree with your reasoning for it's decline.

First, have a look at the guns sales sites and see how long those old rifles sit there unsold. Then look for the ammo, it's not hard to find.

There is no doubt it is no where near as popular as it once was but then neither is the 30.06, the 270 Winchester, or the 300 win mag.

These days it seems that a good many hunters wants either a Super Short magnum of a tactical weapon. The balance want a ultra mag or a lapua.

Sales records suggest otherwise.

It seems that the 30. 06 and the 30-30 still top the list and although the .303 does not make the list it's appearance on most outlets stock list suggests it is still a popular rifle with many shooters.

If you want to know what a dead cartridge looks like, try finding ammo or brass for a 284 Winchester.

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

As has been posted, the 303 became popular as a hunting round, because of the abundant supply of cheap surplus rifles ans ammunition. And yes it did fill the role as a hunting cartridge, but the fact is, that with that supply of surplus rifles exhausted, the cartridge has only it's merits to survive on, and we all known that the cartridge is now all but dead. The manufacturers will sell whatever they think that they can make money on, and Ruger did produce a very limited run of the number 1 rifles in 303, but there simply isn't enough interest for any of the manufacturers to chamber a hunting rifle in the 303 chambering. Compared to very practical cartridges like the 308win, which is still a strong seller, the 303 just didn't offer enough to survive on it's merits.

mer-it = the quality of being particularly good or worthy, especially so as to deserve praise or reward.

The .303 and the 06 both became popular because of the supply of surplus rifles. Surplus ammo was usually not used by hunters. Both were worthy hunting rounds. The 06 was adopted by the big USA marketing machine and the .303 was not. Now just about every big firearms company offer an 06 and next to none offer the .303. Not because the 06 or any .30 caliber had more merit? They don't! It was because the 06 and .308 were adopted and pushed or sponsored or pimped out to the American sportsman.

The fact that the .303 did not survive did not have anything to do with merit or lack of merit. It had more to do with Jack and Warren and Elmer and the crew who fed the hunting sheeple before they could be fed from the internet.
Jack and Warren and Elmer knew their stuff but for the most part they were lobbying for the firearms industry. In this country there were lots of big critters put in the bag with the .303 before anyone ever read about Jack and Warren and Elmer. Same with Africa.

[saskbooknut]

I love the venerable .303. My first rifle was a No.1 Mk. III bought for $9.95 at Eaton's in Victoria about 1963.

However, to suggest the 30-06 did not get to its world wide prominence on merit is plain and simple nonsense.

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by covey ridge

mer-it = the quality of being particularly good or worthy, especially so as to deserve praise or reward.

The .303 and the 06 both became popular because of the supply of surplus rifles. Surplus ammo was usually not used by hunters. Both were worthy hunting rounds. The 06 was adopted by the big USA marketing machine and the .303 was not. Now just about every big firearms company offer an 06 and next to none offer the .303. Not because the 06 or any .30 caliber had more merit? They don't! It was because the 06 and .308 were adopted and pushed or sponsored or pimped out to the American sportsman.

The fact that the .303 did not survive did not have anything to do with merit or lack of merit. It had more to do with Jack and Warren and Elmer and the crew who fed the hunting sheeple before they could be fed from the internet.
Jack and Warren and Elmer knew their stuff but for the most part they were lobbying for the firearms industry. In this country there were lots of big critters put in the bag with the .303 before anyone ever read about Jack and Warren and Elmer. Same with Africa.

The .303 was successful, cause of cheap rifles, did it's job well and gun Nuts hadn't been invented yet.

Grizz

[JD848]

I really like my 303 ,shot deer,moose,bears,wolves ,I still take it out and practice with it and enjoy it.

[elkdump]

Actually .303Brit and 30-30 Win are still some of the top retail selling ammunition across North America , they both do the job with authority and dependability , for millions of shooters, that is all they want,

The job done, nothing to brag about, and not spend outrageous unnecessary amount of ca$h

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

I agree that cheap rifles accounts for the .303s success but I don't agree that is is all but dead now nore do I agree with your reasoning for it's decline.

First, have a look at the guns sales sites and see how long those old rifles sit there unsold. Then look for the ammo, it's not hard to find.

There is no doubt it is no where near as popular as it once was but then neither is the 30.06, the 270 Winchester, or the 300 win mag.

These days it seems that a good many hunters wants either a Super Short magnum of a tactical weapon. The balance want a ultra mag or a lapua.

Sales records suggest otherwise.

It seems that the 30. 06 and the 30-30 still top the list and although the .303 does not make the list it's appearance on most outlets stock list suggests it is still a popular rifle with many shooters.

If you want to know what a dead cartridge looks like, try finding ammo or brass for a 284 Winchester.

When nobody is chambering a commercial rifle in a particular cartridge, and nobody has for many years( other than a small run of Ruger number 1 rifles that were custom ordered), I consider the cartridge to be dying. As to 284 cases, a quick search turned up three sources of new 284 Winchester cases , as well as two sources of once fired cases.

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

When nobody is chambering a commercial rifle in a particular cartridge, and nobody has for many years( other than a small run of Ruger number 1 rifles that were custom ordered), I consider the cartridge to be dying. As to 284 cases, a quick search turned up three sources of new 284 Winchester cases , as well as two sources of once fired cases.

Just about every store I have been to has a small supply of .303 British in up to three different brands. The .284 Win. is usually not in stock and I am only aware of one brand.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by covey ridge

Just about every store I have been to has a small supply of .303 British in up to three different brands. The .284 Win. is usually not in stock and I am only aware of one brand.

Yes the 284 is also a dying cartridge. as are many cartridges that are no longer being chambered by the major manufacturers.

[elkdump]

Originally Posted by covey ridge

Just about every store I have been to has a small supply of .303 British in up to three different brands. The .284 Win. is usually not in stock and I am only aware of one brand.

Common now , the .284 WonceChester is just as popular , as the .307 WonceChester

lmao

[mgvande]

303 is a good cartridge. I dumped my last moose with 40gr of varget.
In regards to the ruger no1's that were chambered for 303 how hot can one load in that rifle? I'm assuming one could hop it up A 100fps or so.

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by elkdump

Common now , the .284 WonceChester is just as popular , as the .307 WonceChester

lmao

I would love to own a .284 again My first three deer kills were with a model 100 when they first came out in the early 1960s. I wanted a .303 cause I was impatient and could afford one but my dad said no. I used his .280 for my first kill which was an antelope and the following year he got me the .284. Winchester made a 125 grain soft point and that is what I used for my first buck. I wasn't the superior shot that I am now and between me and that bullet there was a lot of meat damage. For some reason my dad fell for the look of the cartridge and had Dennis Sorenson shorten and re thread and rechamber his 280 to .284. I let my brother in law have that m-100 and now he is my X b.i.l. and years back he lost it when he tipped a canoe in a lake in Matitoba.

[elkdump]

Originally Posted by covey ridge

I would love to own a .284 again My first three deer kills were with a model 100 when they first came out in the early 1960s. I wanted a .303 cause I was impatient and could afford one but my dad said no. I used his .280 for my first kill which was an antelope and the following year he got me the .284. Winchester made a 125 grain soft point and that is what I used for my first buck. I wasn't the superior shot that I am now and between me and that bullet there was a lot of meat damage. For some reason my dad fell for the look of the cartridge and had Dennis Sorenson shorten and re thread and rechamber his 280 to .284. I let my brother in law have that m-100 and now he is my X b.i.l. and years back he lost it when he tipped a canoe in a lake in Matitoba.

If I want yo use a 7mm bullet , I will use a 7x57 Mauser or a 7mmRemMag , the other 7mm are redundant

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by elkdump

If I want yo use a 7mm bullet , I will use a 7x57 Mauser or a 7mmRemMag , the other 7mm are redundant

Probably!
The first rifle I bought for myself was the Rem Mag. Owned a couple of those and just about all the other 7s except a few that just did not interest me. The one that I never ever desired to have were the wby, the saum, the Ultra Mag and the STW. Could see no use for them and they seem to be going the way of the do do bird. I like my 7-08 but I do not think it will stay long.

[elkdump]

Originally Posted by covey ridge

Probably!
The first rifle I bought for myself was the Rem Mag. Owned a couple of those and just about all the other 7s except a few that just did not interest me. The one that I never ever desired to have were the wby, the saum, the Ultra Mag and the STW. Could see no use for them and they seem to be going the way of the do do bird. I like my 7-08 but I do not think it will stay long.

Ironically , the .303 a British was an alternative to the earlier .276 Enfield cartridge ( bullet .284 / 7.2mm) , a much more advanced and deadly cartridge,

, almost 100% identical to the .280 Rem/7mmRemExpress cartridge, developed one hundred years later,,

Hmm, history do repeat itself

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by elkdump

Ironically , the .303 a British was an alternative to the earlier .276 Enfield cartridge ( bullet .284 / 7.2mm) , a much more advanced and deadly cartridge,

, almost 100% identical to the .280 Rem/7mmRemExpress cartridge, developed one hundred years later,,

Hmm, history do repeat itself

Well that reminds me that the only one I am pining away for right now is a bolt action .250 savage

[hogie]

Originally Posted by elkdump

Ironically , the .303 a British was an alternative to the earlier .276 Enfield cartridge ( bullet .284 / 7.2mm) , a much more advanced and deadly cartridge,

, almost 100% identical to the .280 Rem/7mmRemExpress cartridge, developed one hundred years later,,

Hmm, history do repeat itself

.303 was originally a black powder cartridge from late 1800. Converted over to smokeless powder.

The .276 was supposed to be its replacement along with the P13 Enfield for the Lee Enfield SMLE. Decided after the Boar wars that something else was needed. P13 is sort of a copy of a Mauser action. Still a cock on close design but controlled round feed.

WW1 broke out and the .276 was abandoned. P13 turned into P14 chambered in .303. Americans adapted the P14 into the M1917 chambered in .30 06.

.303 is a round that has been around for well over a hundred years. Still being used today in some countries. Canadian Rangers are giving up the .303 to go to .308. Just starting to happen. Still being used in conflicts in other countries.

In a good Lee Enfield or Ross rifle the .303 can be very accurate. If you get a chance to shoot a good Ross you will be very surprised how well .303 can shoot . I've shot 5 shot groups 1.5 inches with iron sights many times.

As a hunting rifle , my uncle had a cut down military no 4 mk1 that he doesn't know how many deer he shot with. Called it his favorite deer rifle. Had many rifles but always kept that one until he passed. WW2 vet that had 7 kids to feed. It works.

[Bighead]

My uncle used his .303 on moose, deer, and even antelope. He shot several moose and it was very effective. My brother also uses one - topped with a Leupold Rifleman - and has taken a few deer including Mulies. It wasn't one of the most successful rifles in the world just for killing humans.

[Pioneer2]

The .303 British has been putting round holes in square heads since 1888.Harold

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by Pioneer2

The .303 British has been putting round holes in square heads since 1888.Harold

Seems like those square heads put a significant amount of holes in the heads of British limies with the German Mauser.

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by Pioneer2

The .303 British has been putting round holes in square heads since 1888.Harold

Seems like those square heads put a significant amount of holes in the heads of British limies with the German Mauser.
What was your point?

[purgatory.sv]

I believe it’s just a comment nothing more. Similar comment was used by the original poster in another thread. Post#6
http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=312523

It’s not intended to offend but seems to be a reoccurring comment?

[jungleboy]

Originally Posted by Pioneer2

The .303 British has been putting round holes in square heads since 1888.Harold

If I had a box of .303 ammo for every time I heard that comment I would never run out of it

[Sashi]

Originally Posted by Pioneer2

The .303 British has been putting round holes in square heads since 1888.Harold

Just what does this have to do with Moose?

[elkdump]

Originally Posted by Sashi

Just what does this have to do with Moose?

Stubborn beasts

[Bushleague]

The current record Yukon moose, at a 75 1/4" spread one of the biggest Canadian moose ever recorded, was killed with a .303. Not only that but I recently read an article that the first recorded second-generation grizzly/ polar bear hybrid was killed in NWT... with a .303 british. It wasn't killed in self defence either, it was hunted by a fist nations hunter who claimed that he could not remember how many polar bears he had killed with that Lee Enfield. Given that polar bears are mainly harvested by first nations people, and given the continued popularity of Lee Enfields in the far north, I would hazard a guess that the .303 still takes more head of polar bear, as well as muskox than many of the powerful magnums.

So ya, the .303 british will kill a friggin moose, there's nothing here to debate.

[sevenmil]

Can the .303 kill a moose? Of course. And probably anything else you point it at that walks on this continent. Are there more capable cartridges. Of course.

[Bushleague]

Originally Posted by Dick284

4 MOA and 200 yds is about 8"
That's well within minute of moose, even when factoring in a pile a wiggling and wobbling.

The notion that you need sub MOA rifles to hunt with, is part of the marketing spin being spewed.

Even with all the better rifles, optics and ammo, we still haven't surpassed an average kill range for big game in North America of 200 yds. From what I've seen all the technology is but a crutch that many use to supplant some degree of skill in either hunting nor shooting.

Agreed. As long as a hunting rifle can put its first shot where its aimed, where the other 4 bullets might have ended up in relation is irrelevant.

My .303 will shoot 2.5" groups all day, and will kill anything @ under 250 yards just as well as a gun that shoots .5 MOA.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

When nobody is chambering a commercial rifle in a particular cartridge, and nobody has for many years( other than a small run of Ruger number 1 rifles that were custom ordered), I consider the cartridge to be dying. As to 284 cases, a quick search turned up three sources of new 284 Winchester cases , as well as two sources of once fired cases.

You may consider it dying and you are welcome to do it, but that don't make it so.

As for the 284, maybe you don't know that I have one. I have done those searches many times.
Yes you will find listings, you may even find some in stock. But my experience says you'll do a lot of searching before you find anything 284 in stock.

Not so with .303 ammo or brass.

In fact the only ammo, components I have experience trying to find, that is harder to find then 284 components, is 32 rimfire ammo.

When is the last time you saw or heard of anyone making rifles chambered in 32 rimfire or ammo for such a rifle?
Yet I have recently seen listings for full boxes of 32 rimfire ammo.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

You may consider it dying and you are welcome to do it, but that don't make it so.

As for the 284, maybe you don't know that I have one. I have done those searches many times.
Yes you will find listings, you may even find some in stock. But my experience says you'll do a lot of searching before you find anything 284 in stock.

Not so with .303 ammo or brass.

In fact the only ammo, components I have experience trying to find, that is harder to find then 284 components, is 32 rimfire ammo.

When is the last time you saw or heard of anyone making rifles chambered in 32 rimfire or ammo for such a rifle?
Yet I have recently seen listings for full boxes of 32 rimfire ammo.

The simple fact is that if nobody is still chambering a cartridge, and less and less people are shooting that cartridge, then it is dying. Some cartridges take a lot longer to die, but without new rifles being chambered in that cartridge, it is dying, As for the 284 cases, I spent less than five minutes finding three sources that have cases available, so if you spent considerable time searching, then you weren't looking in the right places. My longest search ever for components took me a combined total of over 20 phone calls and e-mails over two days, and that was for 270wsm cases, a cartridge which is still being chambered, and components are still being produced, so it certainly isn't dying, but at the time, demand was greater than the available supply.
All of which does not change the fact that many moose have been killed with the 303 cartridge, and many more moose will be killed with the 303 , before it fades away entirely.