Is the Venerable .303 British enough for moose?

[Flight01]

Originally Posted by Dick284

I'd wager guys like Sgt. H Marshall of the Calgary Highlanders would disagree with your claims that military .303's are inaccurate.



Although the rear lock up on the Lee Enfield isn't what would be considered a reloaders dream, that doesn't mean it isn't capable at longer distances. I wonder what was used in DCRA type competitions in first half of the 20th century.

The bad reputation stems from mis matched bolts, poor maintenance and use of corrosive ammo, varied bore diameters, and the incessant hype and advertising directed at hunters and shooters.

Don't get me wrong Dick, there were some great rifles and some great riflemen
I guess I took things off the track. The OP was about 303 Brit, the cartridge yes it will kill moose. I guess most surplus rifles I have seen were between 2 and 4 moa and I didn't think to mention the great guns that do exist

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by Flight01

Don't get me wrong Dick, there were some great rifles and some great riflemen
I guess I took things off the track. The OP was about 303 Brit, the cartridge yes it will kill moose. I guess most surplus rifles I have seen were between 2 and 4 moa and I didn't think to mention the great guns that do exist

4 MOA and 200 yds is about 8"
That's well within minute of moose, even when factoring in a pile a wiggling and wobbling.

The notion that you need sub MOA rifles to hunt with, is part of the marketing spin being spewed.

Even with all the better rifles, optics and ammo, we still haven't surpassed an average kill range for big game in North America of 200 yds. From what I've seen all the technology is but a crutch that many use to supplant some degree of skill in either hunting nor shooting.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Tree oh tree
Turdy ott sex

Too much vanilla

Need sprinkles

LC

[sioux 1876]

Saw my brother in law drop a 5X6 bull elk at 300yrds. 303 British open site with a neck shot. Was an amazing shot that i will never forget.Don't think I will see that ever again

[35 whelen]

Originally Posted by sioux 1876

Saw my brother in law drop a 5X6 bull elk at 300yrds. 303 British open site with a neck shot. Was an amazing shot that i will never forget.Don't think I will see that ever again

So he was aiming for the neck he would only be amazing in my book if that's where he was aiming

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

[wellpastcold]

It would be difficult to fathom how many game animals have been taken in Alberta alone with the 303. They are inexpensive and easy to use. A great entry level big game rifle that has plenty of punch at common sense distances. Many of my hunting buddies started with a .303. It brought back some great memories just thinking about how many moose I have seen fall to one.

[jaylow?]

Originally Posted by 35 whelen

So he was aiming for the neck he would only be amazing in my book if that's where he was aiming

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

that's exactly what I was thinking .

[Grizzly Adams]

Betting there have still been more moose killed with a .303 in Canada than any other caliber.

Grizz

[Alberta Bigbore]

The Injun Moose Mauser. I'm guilty of taking a moose and a few deer with an old 303brit in my teens 😊

[KegRiver]

Bought my first .303 for $27.00. Still have it, still use it.
I have no idea how many Bears it has sent to the Sweet swamp on high but I do know it took four Moose in my hands, how many before, I don't know.

Peter Hathaway Capstick claimed that more Elephants were killed with .303 then any other caliber. Apparently it is one of the most popular rifles with natives of the Dark Continent and they use what they have.

I believe the only reason the .303 is considered inadequate for large north American game is because it was not invented by the USA.

Gun writes still sing the virtues of the .308 which was invented in the USA and is less powerful in every way, then the .303

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Gun writes still sing the virtues of the .308 which was invented in the USA and is less powerful in every way, then the .303

There's no disputing the .303 British capabilities in the field, but you are so mixed up with the above quote.

The 303 British cranks out 180 gr bullets at a published average of 2460fps, and 150's at around 2680fps.

The 308Winchester starts 180's at a published muzzle velocity of 2620fps, and 150's at 2820fps.

That's nearly 200 fps faster accross the board, to which the 308 out paces the 303.

Again the 303 British is far more capable than far too many hunters realize, but let's not go blowing smoke where it isn't necessary.

The need for newer this and that, being developed by ammunition and rifle manufacturesrs pushed the 303 British off the must have list. Because of the need to develop new things ensures growth and market share. Otherwise companies would go belly up. Once all the surplus Lee Enfield were un mercellisly butchered by "Bubba", and "Gomer" and the readership of gun magazines increased of course the .303British began to loose its sex appeal.

[JonnyBoy0919]

Back home (New Brunswick) the .303 Lee Enfield is used all the time to hunt moose. Poachers love them because they buy a cheap sporterized Enfield for 150 bucks, and when Fish and Wildlife come around, the gun mysteriously disappears into the bog never to be seen again.

[roger]

Originally Posted by Dick284

of course the .303British began to loose its sex appeal.

One must have it before one can lose it!
Just look back in your high school yearbook and now look in the mirror.....see what I mean!

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Dick284

There's no disputing the .303 British capabilities in the field, but you are so mixed up with the above quote.

The 303 British cranks out 180 gr bullets at a published average of 2460fps, and 150's at around 2680fps.

The 308Winchester starts 180's at a published muzzle velocity of 2620fps, and 150's at 2820fps.

That's nearly 200 fps faster accross the board, to which the 308 out paces the 303.

Apparently you use different reloading data then I do.

My data has the 308 at 2663 with IMR 4064 and 150 gr. bullet and the .303 at 2699 with IMR 4064 and a 150 gr bullet.

I'm not going to bother going through every available reloading combination, I'm sure that somewhere in there is the data you use.

It proves nothing really. My point wasn't which was more powerful, my point was and is, in North America the 308 gets good press and the 303 does not.

I could have used the 30-40 Krag for the comparison. It would make the same point and even you would not argue that it is a more powerful cartridge then the .303

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Apparently you use different reloading data then I do.

My data has the 308 at 2663 with IMR 4064 and 150 gr. bullet and the .303 at 2699 with IMR 4064 and a 150 gr bullet.

I'm not going to bother going through every available reloading combination, I'm sure that somewhere in there is the data you use.

It proves nothing really. My point wasn't which was more powerful, my point was and is, in North America the 308 gets good press and the 303 does not.

I could have used the 30-40 Krag for the comparison. It would make the same point and even you would not argue that it is a more powerful cartridge then the .303

I'm sorry you feel slighted.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Dick284

I'm sorry you feel slighted.

How is that on topic?

AM I right, that a good part of the bad press the .303 gets is due to where it originated?

Or do you have another explanation.

[Young Eldon]

Like Sioux 1876, I watched my uncle kill an elk with one shot from an open sighted .303 past 300 yards. He did fudge a bit by resting the gun on the top of a fence post!

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

Betting there have still been more moose killed with a .303 in Canada than any other caliber.

Grizz

I am thinking that the .308" caliber has killed more game in Canada, considering that it includes the 30-30, 308, 30-06, and the various other .308" cartridges.

But that doesn't change the fact that the huge supply of cheap surplus rifles and ammunition led to the 303 being very popular with hunters after the second world war.

[Ndallyn]

When I was just a lad, one of the guys who taught me to shoot was into Buffalo bore - and dialed in a sharps at 1200 yds with 405 gr cast loads. We were shooting a 4' gong at over 1000 yds, consistently, with 100 year old technology. I will not forget some of the lessons that guy taught me about hunting and rifle craft.

If a .45-70 will black powder was good enough to decimate the Buffalo - any heavy bullet at medium velocity will be fine for moose. Load up some 180gr bullets and stay within a couple hundred yds and it shouldn't be an issue.

Unless it one of those new hybrid mutant moose with bulletproof hides......

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I am thinking that the .308" caliber has killed more game in Canada, considering that it includes the 30-30, 308, 30-06, and the various other .308" cartridges.

You are probably right, but go back forty years or so and the .303 would have beat all others.

When I was a kid, there weren't a lot of people who could afford a new rifle and surplus rifles were everywhere and cheap.

The .303 was king then but not the only surplus contender. There were the Carl Gustaf 6.5s and the Carcano carbines.

South of the border .30 06 surplus rifles were the rifle of choice for cash strapped hunters, and those who wanted to customize a rifle had the Mousers to work with.

We had access to those rifles too, but they cost more then the Lee Enfields and many Canadians were more familiar with the .303.
After all, we were still pretty much a British colony. On paper we were our own country but Queen Elizabeth was still our Queen too.

[Sashi]

Originally Posted by JonnyBoy0919

Back home (New Brunswick) the .303 Lee Enfield is used all the time to hunt moose. Poachers love them because they buy a cheap sporterized Enfield for 150 bucks, and when Fish and Wildlife come around, the gun mysteriously disappears into the bog never to be seen again.

that's cute

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

You are probably right, but go back forty years or so and the .303 would have beat all others.

When I was a kid, there weren't a lot of people who could afford a new rifle and surplus rifles were everywhere and cheap.

The .303 was king then but not the only surplus contender. There were the Carl Gustaf 6.5s and the Carcano carbines.

South of the border .30 06 surplus rifles were the rifle of choice for cash strapped hunters, and those who wanted to customize a rifle had the Mousers to work with.

We had access to those rifles too, but they cost more then the Lee Enfields and many Canadians were more familiar with the .303.
After all, we were still pretty much a British colony. On paper we were our own country but Queen Elizabeth was still our Queen too.

And once the military stopped issuing the old Lee Enfields, and the supplies of surplus rifles dried up, none of the larger companies bothered to chamber any of their main hunting rifles in 303, and the cartridge faded away into obscurity. The cartridge simply couldn't make it as a sporting cartridge on it's own merits. That being said, the cartridge still kills game, but it is doing so less and less these days, as people choose other cartridges instead.

[sns2]

Price = Popularity

Other than that, it would not be as popular as it was.

Having said that, there is no reason upon the face of the earth that this is not a very capable round for moose. Time has proven it.

[FellSwoop]

Definitely the 303 Brit can kill moose. Mine as a backup / sled scabbord gun has downed several, most recently on '13. My SMLE only groups about 4 1/2 inches and the longest kill shot was about 180 yards on a mule buck back in the 90s. IMHO the 303 Lee Enfield combination is ideal for bear hunting as it hits hard but can still be cycled very fast. I don't have a faster bolt action than the SMLE.

[airbornedeerhunter]

Originally Posted by Little red riding hood

A friend of mine from newfieland told me that he was on a fishing boat when they caught a humpback whale, he said they dumped a box of 303 into it and carved it up to get the liver, if it is possible to kill a humpback whale with a 303, seems like a moose shouldn't be too much more difficult.

I think your friend was having some fun with you!

[Speckle55]

I had a 303 Brit customized by Parker Hale in 1974 and put my Bushnell Scopechief 3x9 with BDC with the right disc .. I used 180gr Win Silver tips at 2460 (I think I did) .. it was a very good Moose gun with some amazing kill shots over 7 years .. the only thing about shooting longer range's is you have too pack them out... got pretty good at quartering up moose and had a nice Trapper Nelson with head strap ... even packed out a 1/2 moose skinned out ... got a few hyper-static drops but most left for 1hr then retrieved.. Deer / Black Bear were np

it got me through till I bought my Rem 700 BDL 7mm Mag put same scope on it just changed disc in Christmas 1981

Back in the 70's more people had 303's than others ...imo

as always this is

Food for Thought

David

[covey ridge]

The .303 British on its own merits could hold its own as a game getter with many of the most popular cartridges. None of the modern firearm companies were interested because practical hunters saw no need to pay several hundred dollars when a suitable rifle could be had for under $20.00. When practical hunters started to afford more modern firearms some of them fell for the never ending ever changing development of new cartridges . The .303 was left behind by the firearms manufacturers and the ammunition companies not because in any way it was less capable but because the industry began to realize that there wasn't enough money to be made off of being practical.

If the .303 had arrived in the USA in a firearm that could have been easily customized. and thus caught they eye of the American Sporting Arms manufacturers, things may have been different.

On its own merits and without the push of marketing the .303 British is a proven game getter.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by covey ridge

The .303 British on its own merits could hold its own as a game getter with many of the most popular cartridges. None of the modern firearm companies were interested because practical hunters saw no need to pay several hundred dollars when a suitable rifle could be had for under $20.00. When practical hunters started to afford more modern firearms some of them fell for the never ending ever changing development of new cartridges . The .303 was left behind by the firearms manufacturers and the ammunition companies not because in any way it was less capable but because the industry began to realize that there wasn't enough money to be made off of being practical.

If the .303 had arrived in the USA in a firearm that could have been easily customized. and thus caught they eye of the American Sporting Arms manufacturers, things may have been different.

On its own merits and without the push of marketing the .303 British is a proven game getter.

As has been posted, the 303 became popular as a hunting round, because of the abundant supply of cheap surplus rifles ans ammunition. And yes it did fill the role as a hunting cartridge, but the fact is, that with that supply of surplus rifles exhausted, the cartridge has only it's merits to survive on, and we all known that the cartridge is now all but dead. The manufacturers will sell whatever they think that they can make money on, and Ruger did produce a very limited run of the number 1 rifles in 303, but there simply isn't enough interest for any of the manufacturers to chamber a hunting rifle in the 303 chambering. Compared to very practical cartridges like the 308win, which is still a strong seller, the 303 just didn't offer enough to survive on it's merits.

[marlin1]

shot my first deer with one , had one ever since . Just because . I will choose my 308 or 7mm if I draw my moose tag this year though .

[elkdump]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

As has been posted, the 303 became popular as a hunting round, because of the abundant supply of cheap surplus rifles ans ammunition. And yes it did fill the role as a hunting cartridge, but the fact is, that with that supply of surplus rifles exhausted, the cartridge has only it's merits to survive on, and we all known that the cartridge is now all but dead. The manufacturers will sell whatever they think that they can make money on, and Ruger did produce a very limited run of the number 1 rifles in 303, but there simply isn't enough interest for any of the manufacturers to chamber a hunting rifle in the 303 chambering. Compared to very practical cartridges like the 308win, which is still a strong seller, the 303 just didn't offer enough to survive on it's merits.

And the Winchester 1895 .303 British was very popular, and in good condition is very sought after to this day

And risking going off topic, if the SH!T ever hit the fan and survival anywhere on this planet was dependant of a good firearm, then a Lee Enfield in good condition would be top of my list for hardware,,
Ammo anywhere on earth, forever,,,