Porcupine Hills Forrest logging... WOW!

[270 ELK]

Originally Posted by CanadianEh

Just did some quick research, Douglas firs commonly live more than 500 years and occasionally more than 1,000 years. Apparently they are also quite fire resistant with thick bark acting like an insulator to the fire, as I assume they would have to be to live 500-1000 years. I would bet fire has gone through that forest maybe even a few times long before we were here to ever see it, or extinguish it.

IMHO the argument that these trees should be cut down becasue of fire risk and being they are 200-300 years old when it has a life cycle of 500-1000 years, holds no water. and is likely a logging companies way to lobby government.

AS mentioned, I do not disagree with logging. it has its place for industry and conservation. But to go clear cut massive forests of 300 year old trees is plain ignorant and stupid. Places like this should be SELECTIVELY logged, taking younger trees which regenerate much much faster. Not clear cut.


It pains me that my sons, grandsons, great grandsons, great grand sons will likely never see a stunning valley of trees far older than Canada itself. just becasue of the short sightedness and someone wanting to make a few $$ in the name of industry. These places are the types of places that should be preserved for future generations, for hunting, camping, hiking, OHV. horseback etc etc etc...

p.s. Sounds very tree hugger ( which I am not) but I would like to preserve natural wonders for future generations. Also, I cannot personally speak to the wildlife, they have never spoken back to date.. so I have not had in depth conversations with them as to their "love of it"

I could not agree more people should read and understand what you are saying

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by CanadianEh

Apparently people cannot read.. Or just don't bother reading...

As I have said all along,
Logging is absolutely a crucial industry here in Alberta. And no one here is saying dont ever cut down a tree. Or that logging should not be allowed. This is not a is logging good or bad debate..

I am questioning why cut down forests containing 300+ year old fir trees? You cut that tree down once, and that's it for the next several hundred years.. Not a spruce that shoots back up in 20.

I would be extremely happy if someone had data showing all they harvested was spruce.. As I have little issue with that at all.

It's the government that enforces the clear cutting . I'm sure the lumber companies would love to pick and chose what they cut and would select logs in the 6" to 20" diameter range and leave the rest.

[Big Grey Wolf]

Just as always I agree with Kegs summary of logging. I am not sure why fur trees were mentioned as we have almost none in Alberta. Logging companies harvest mainly lodgepole pine and white spruce.
Our trapline is being hammered by logging companies out of Hinton and Whitecourt. They proposed a cut block of almost a entire township (30 square miles) last summer. They are now cutting "Baby Trees" about 6" in diameter as almost All of the large old growth spruce is now gone. Most of the small diameter trees end up on the burn pile, that is some of the real issues today.

[bessiedog]

The upper ridges of the Porkies supposedly did not get covered by glaciers during the most recent ice age. The flora is pretty unique.

Johnson Brothers saw millhad logging camps in there for a long long time.

And yes, there's fir in there... many are really huge. I have a picture of my friend and my oldest daughter having a 'picnic break' on a huge stump from a long ago harvested tree. Sure looked like a selective harvest to me.

Having chased elk there lots, I can tell you that the old trees do have evidence of past fires. There'd probably be less scrub poplar hanging around if we had a good fire go through there.

Hunted lots of small cut blocks in there as well. Critters seem to like them.

[Bushrat]

Cutblocks are great for game if left to grow back up naturally. What I don't like is they are (at least around here) spraying them with glyphosate to kill everything deciduous that comes up and most cutblocks are nothing but lines of evenly spaced pine or spruce monoculture cultivated tree farms, very little game in or around those at all. They should ban glyphosate spraying. Many states and some provinces have.

[slickwilly]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

It's the government that enforces the clear cutting . I'm sure the lumber companies would love to pick and chose what they cut and would select logs in the 6" to 20" diameter range and leave the rest.

That is called high-grading, and it makes for stunted forests.

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by slickwilly

That is called high-grading, and it makes for stunted forests.

Okay , I just see a lot of undersized trees cut which are pretty much use less unless your cutting for pulp.

[slickwilly]

If it's big enough for them to haul out, they are getting something out of it. With the distances that most Alberta mills have to cover, you are only profitable by working at a certain scale, which means big machines, which don't really work around small trees that well.

[nube]

Anyone want to see a time lapse of certain areas in alberta check this link out

https://earthengine.google.com/timelapse/

I looked over Fox Creek area and I about puke.

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by nube

Anyone want to see a time lapse of certain areas in alberta check this link out

https://earthengine.google.com/timelapse/

I looked over Fox Creek area and I about puke.

That wasn't working for me Nube but I have a pretty good Idea of what it looks like. Your in a mountain pine beetle hot spot.
http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/sites/www.nrc...sets/file/1423

[Subaru297]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

We complain about the oil sands, the clear cut logging, and the use of chemicals on farm crops, but no one wants to pay more for the products they buy.

Industry gives us what we demand. If we are willing to pay a premium we could have our 2x4s pulled out of the bush by a team of horses.

Are we willing to pay?

+1 Well said. Everyone blames industry for everything but it is really all on the consumer. If there were no consumers or demand there would be no industry.

Cheers

[CanadianEh]

Well since only a few people seem to have actually read the posts..

I'm not going to bother repeating myself again and again.

[slough shark]

Kinda hard to blame industry for using their logging rights while they still can, what's the timeline for their rights being remove when it gets turned into a park? I wouldn't be surprised if anything west of the trunk road that has logging rights and trees close to their scheduled harvest date get cut shortly.

[KegRiver]

Many years ago I was picking Blueberries northwest of Edson.

By all appearances I was in an old growth forest but then I found a moss covered stump, and then another. Then I started looking for stumps and found lots of them. All of them very old looking, and moss covered.

Sawed off stumps. Evidence of logging. So later I did a bit of research and learned that the whole area had been logged a few times since the 1800s.

Years later I was employed by the forest industry as a regen surveyor.
One of our jobs was to do junior stand surveys. That's where one checks on the progress of regrowth 15 years after logging.

In those cut blocks the regrowth spruce was about eight feet tall and the poplar was maybe twenty. It no longer looked like a cutblock.

I'm not a fan of clear cut logging but I've seen it up close and personal and I've seen the alternatives.
I've seen selective horse logging up close and personal too. On private woodlots, my brother's and his neighbors to be exact.

And I've seen blocks of forest cleared to make space for industrial development, residential homes, and farming.

Some special interest groups have been playing fast and loose with the truth, maybe because they don't know the truth or maybe because they don't respect the truth.
Either way they have mislead a lot of folks.

The cold hard fact is we change our environment to suit OUR purposes.
One man clears a lot to build a house on, another clears land to make a field.
Some hunt for recreation, others to feed themselves. Some use chemicals, some want an all natural world.

The problem is, no one seems to know what natural really means. See we are part of nature, we are natural. What we do is natural.

Beavers harvest trees for the branches for their food. They flood land and cut ditches and that's okay because it's natural.
Bears and Wolves dig dens, Deer and Moose prune trees. It's all natural, and no one complains expect a few farmers who have had fields flooded and crops trampled.

We are told that we descended from apes, maybe that's true, maybe it isn't.
One thing is undeniable, we are animals in every sense of the word.
No doubt we are the most intelligent of all animals, or at least some of us are.
Bottom line, we are part of nature whether we like to admit it or not.

Having said that, I believe we have an obligation to govern ourselves with the whole planet in mind. We have a moral obligation to leave the smallest footprint that is practical.

But crying about what the neighbor is doing is not going to solve any issues. Change starts with the individual. With me.

That is why I use old boards in my construction whenever possible, it's why I reuse my milk jugs to hold water for camping trips. It's why I did not raise a big family.

See conservation is about a lot more then one issue. One man killing a Deer out of season is not going to cause a population collapse. But one hundred million poachers will.

And that folks is the crux of the matter. The number one problem in the world is not clear cut logging or man made chemicals.
It's the exploding human population.

More people demand more lumber, more oil, more farms, more cities.
That's what's killing our planet. It's not the hunting or the logging or Donald Trump. It's the shear weight of the human population.

So what's the solution? You tell me. What are you willing to give up to achieve a healthy planet?
See even if I didn't exist, if I had zero impact, it would make no difference because there are billions of other humans on this planet.

You know what I think. I think we are ^&%(#E*. There are just too many lazy stupid people in this world making babies. They are multiplying folks and there is nothing we can do about it.

Because. It is up to the individual to do the right thing. We know that because some don't and no matter what laws we implement or how much we rant and rave, every year there are more of them then the year before.

Have a swell day, I know I will.

[CanadianEh]

That was well said Keg.

And I agree with pretty well everything you say in that post.

[koothunter]

I have to chime in here.

First, I agree with a few of Kegs points, but often a family of 6 live in a much smaller home and leave a smaller footprint than a wealthy retired couple. It's not about population, it's about greed!!

Second. I did a lot of the development work for SLS in the Porkies, and have an educated in forestry. SLS has strict guidelines called Operating Ground Rules. If you are gonna slam they forest industry I suggest you become more familiar with these rules and forest stand dynamics in general. SLS did not target douglas fir at all, and I challenge anyone to go and find a 200yr (even 100yrs might be extremely hard to find) old fir stump in any of that logging!! The massive old fir are not touched. Fir leading timber types were not touched (unless for the odd road passing through). Most of what was logged there was lodgepole pine and spruce. Lodgepole pine does not like selective logging and it leaves a poor quality stand as a result. Pine have adapted with fire and large disturbance is necessary for its life cycle. Pine is mature at around 60yrs old and becomes stressed and susceptible to disease as it gets older. This is why the mountain pine beetle was such a problem in BC. These pine stands need stand replacing disturbance. Over mature pine stands also create increased fire hazard and unnaturally hot and erratic fire behavior.

I could go on and on about forest ecosystems, but the real issue is that man is too good at suppressing fire and we have disrupted the natural cycles, by putting them out. Management of forests is very dynamic, and clearcut harvesting lodgepole pine stands is an effective way to mimic natural disturbance, minimize forest health issues, and salvage a much needed resource.

A forests lifespan is a lot longer than ours, so just because it's been a certain way for our lifetime, doesn't mean squat.

[CanadianEh]

Great post as well Koothunter

If what you say is indeed true, it is as I was hoping for... I would indeed be happy, and have no issue with industry logging the Spruce or Pine how they have.. My whole thing all along was to leave the Big 300 year old trees alone, instead of clear cut with the rest.. Do you happen to know where a person can find stats of what was harvested?

I also agree with many of your points in regards to Fire suppression.

Thanks for chiming in.

[koothunter]

I'm not sure if or where those stats would be available. You could call SLS is Cochrane and inquire?? If I had to guess I would say it's probably 60-80%pine and 20-40% spruce with 5% or less fir. Obviously there's a range there depending on the area.

[calgarychef]

My biggest concerns are with the regrowth we've all seen the sprayed and planted forests. Mile after mile of conifer with not much else, it's poor habitat for animals and a slap in the face of nature. She can reistablish a thriving ecosystem in a handful of years if we allow it and we should.

[Newview01]

The amount of children does not determine the intelligence or quality of the children. It is the upbringing and lessons taught. Those who believe that a large family is more damaging to the earth than a small do not know what a large family is like or were brought up in the wrong family.

[Little red riding hood]

I work in the logging industry, and I agree that a lot of the deforestation is not done correctly, but I am certainly in favor of logging rather than burning, I picked mushrooms near lac la biche when I was a teenager and I was shocked to see how many burned-out skeletons of all manner of wildlife was littered throughout the burn, when loggers move in, the animals move out until the logging is done, when a fire rages through at 60 Mph, only the birds get away.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by koothunter

I have to chime in here.

First, I agree with a few of Kegs points, but often a family of 6 live in a much smaller home and leave a smaller footprint than a wealthy retired couple. It's not about population, it's about greed!!

You are right about monetary wealth leaving a bigger footprint. Even so, I think the population factor is much greater.
But it doesn't really matter which has the greater impact. The effect is cumulative.

The bottom line is that conservation efforts will have little long term effect if human consumption of the worlds resources continues to increase at the present rate.

One man cutting a few logs to build a cabin isn't going to change the world.
100 billion people cutting a few logs each, or paying to have someone else cut a few logs for each person will absolutely change the world and not in a good way.
Add to that a few hundred thousand rich people each paying for hundreds of trees to be cut to build their multiple homes and you have a global catastrophe no one wants to talk about.

You can't cure a disease by treating the symptoms.

BTW, I had three brothers and 12 sisters. We lived in a 1,100 square foot log house. We left a pretty small footprint, but not by choice, we couldn't afford new boots . Or new anything.

[Little red riding hood]

Wow! Big family Keg! I thought my mom's family was big at 8 girls and 4 boys.

[Chung66]

Originally Posted by CanadianEh

Great post as well Koothunter

If what you say is indeed true, it is as I was hoping for... I would indeed be happy, and have no issue with industry logging the Spruce or Pine how they have.. My whole thing all along was to leave the Big 300 year old trees alone, instead of clear cut with the rest.. Do you happen to know where a person can find stats of what was harvested?

I also agree with many of your points in regards to Fire suppression.

Thanks for chiming in.

I would like to mention that the forest are managed by registered professionals and professional techs. Both are governed by legislation and ethics. Both the people who work for industry and government belong to these organizations. Google CAPF AND CAPFT for more information on these organizations. They are the equivalent to the professional organizations that govern engineers, geologists, biologists. Ect. The public forests are run by people who are educated and certified in forest and ecological management

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Chung66

I would like to mention that the forest are managed by registered professionals and professional techs. Both are governed by legislation and ethics. Both the people who work for industry and government belong to these organizations. Google CAPF AND CAPFT for more information on these organizations. They are the equivalent to the professional organizations that govern engineers, geologists, biologists. Ect. The public forests are run by people who are educated and certified in forest and ecological management

That is true to a degree, and those are good honest hard working people.

But it's not as simple as that. Those professionals can be and often are over ruled by politicians with no expertise in forestry, or much besides politics, and also by corporate managers who put profit margin above conservation and those not so honest individuals lobby government to change or write laws that allow, assist or ignore their corporate greed.

It's not all politicians or all corporate managers that do this, but enough to make a profound difference.

[LKILR]

I have seen clear cuts it the porkies. I have seen they do leave the odd large fir tree standing. But with out cover from the other trees they usually end up blowing over.

[Big Grey Wolf]

Corporate Greed and Bad politicians are the real problem in Alberta. Our previous Klieken government gave the management of our FMA,s to large American forestry companies and fired almost all of Alberta Forestry professionals. "Now the Fox is guarding the chicken pen" in Alberta. Heaven help our grandchildren and our wildlife.

[Headdamage]

I just love the irony of a no OHV sign posted on the edge of a scarified clear cut.

[slickwilly]

Originally Posted by Headdamage

I just love the irony of a no OHV sign posted on the edge of a scarified clear cut.

It does seem ironic, but I've also seen plenty of 10 year old blocks with 10 foot tall Aspen everywhere except for where the quads cut through.
Winter logging with the right machines will leave roots ready to sucker in the spring, but it doesn't take many quad trip though in the summer (which have a much smaller pressure footprint than a skidder on big tires) to kill those roots.

Same thing goes for conifer blocks where a tiny bit of compaction will stop seeds from establishing or people will drive down the quad paths that were used by the planters, and planted on the way out, killing all the seedlings.

And once the quad path is there, its damn near impossible to get rid of it, since it becomes a highway for the locals.

[fergy]

Originally Posted by nube

Anyone want to see a time lapse of certain areas in alberta check this link out

https://earthengine.google.com/timelapse/

I looked over Fox Creek area and I about puke.

Thats unreal !! Swan hills and Prairie creek areas look like they are missing 2/3 of the trees they started with. Never realized how much forest have come down in this province.