Porcupine Hills Forrest logging... WOW!

[CanadianEh]

Not sure how many people have seen this or care much about it..

Ill be the first to say, I know very very little about proper forestry conservation, or logging in general..

But it I find it very hard to look at, when you see the satellite pictures of what has happened to the forest in the porcupine hills. This is a stunningly beautiful area, and these are some amazing SUPER OLD fir trees (hundreds of years old) and a very unique area not unlike the cypress hills.

I think someone in government fell asleep at the wheel on this one.. in allowing such massive clear cutting deforestation.

Pictures are satellite images form 2015 and 2016..

[Newview01]

Did you dig these pics up from google earth yourself? Not sure where one can find pics from 2015.

Also, read this thread.

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=266662

[CanadianEh]

yes I was looking around the area and looked back in the history images..

[Newview01]

Shouldn't we be up in arms about the logging industry and not OHVs?

[CanadianEh]

Originally Posted by Newview01

Did you dig these pics up from google earth yourself? Not sure where one can find pics from 2015.

Also, read this thread.

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=266662

Yeah I did read that thread... but the last post was form 2015... Since then, this has occurred and no one has mentioned anything about it!!

If you use Google Earth ( not maps) once you zoom into an area, there is a little button in the lower left corner that shows a clock going backwards and a date. If you open that tool you can see as many pictures back in history that the satellite has ever taken.

And yes... I am one of the people who is shocked and furious over this clear cut logging, especially in an area that is such a OLD hidden treasure for all.

I am not against logging as an industry in anyway.. It has its place in forest conservation and safety.. but I do not find this much different than going in and cutting down all of the massive thousand year old trees in sequoia national park in the states..

[walking buffalo]

We have been excluding forest fires in the Porcupine Hills for over a century.

[Springer]

Originally Posted by Newview01

Shouldn't we be up in arms about the logging industry and not OHVs?

Nailed it !!! My same argument. ATV'rs get blamed for tearing up the countryside , meanwhile logging companies are raping and pillaging the Forests in front of our eyes...
How does this leave areas for Rachael Notleys Unicorns and Rainbows to exist in..

Our lumber and Coal is shipped overseas and were paying Carbon tax to ensure we reduce our emissions . Meanwhile China is utilizing it...

[slickwilly]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

We have been excluding forest fires in the Porcupine Hills for over a century.

x2
If there were trees getting to be old growth, they were long past due to burn. There are lots of benefits to breaking up that homogenous forest type: increased variety of habitats (including more forage for the animals us hunters like...), reduced fire risk, reduced disease and insect risk...

[silver lab]

Finely! Some good ol' fashon industry. Dont worry, you guys will get your way and get logging kicked out, some more guys will loose there jobs, it will get over grown and then burn down. Then you can blame the gov that it burnt down.
I was hunting moose in it this year and it was great! Lots of moose, elk, deer and lots and lots of black bears. Turns out the animals love it. Google earth guys think its a disaster.

[sjd]

I think someone in government fell asleep at the wheel on this one.. in allowing such massive clear cutting deforestation.

Pictures are satellite images form 2015 and 2016..



[/QUOTE]

Sadly no one fell asleep this is Government policy. Every single harvestable tree in Alberta that is not in a provincial park out in a stream buffer has been allocated to a forestry company to cut. All those low elevation forests in the South Castle were due to be clear it till the present government protected it.

[CanadianEh]

Originally Posted by silver lab

Finely! Some good ol' fashon industry. Dont worry, you guys will get your way and get logging kicked out, some more guys will loose there jobs, it will get over grown and then burn down. Then you can blame the gov that it burnt down.
I was hunting moose in it this year and it was great! Lots of moose, elk, deer and lots and lots of black bears. Turns out the animals love it. Google earth guys think its a disaster.

Just did some quick research, Douglas firs commonly live more than 500 years and occasionally more than 1,000 years. Apparently they are also quite fire resistant with thick bark acting like an insulator to the fire, as I assume they would have to be to live 500-1000 years. I would bet fire has gone through that forest maybe even a few times long before we were here to ever see it, or extinguish it.

IMHO the argument that these trees should be cut down becasue of fire risk and being they are 200-300 years old when it has a life cycle of 500-1000 years, holds no water. and is likely a logging companies way to lobby government.

AS mentioned, I do not disagree with logging. it has its place for industry and conservation. But to go clear cut massive forests of 300 year old trees is plain ignorant and stupid. Places like this should be SELECTIVELY logged, taking younger trees which regenerate much much faster. Not clear cut.


It pains me that my sons, grandsons, great grandsons, great grand sons will likely never see a stunning valley of trees far older than Canada itself. just becasue of the short sightedness and someone wanting to make a few $$ in the name of industry. These places are the types of places that should be preserved for future generations, for hunting, camping, hiking, OHV. horseback etc etc etc...

p.s. Sounds very tree hugger ( which I am not) but I would like to preserve natural wonders for future generations. Also, I cannot personally speak to the wildlife, they have never spoken back to date.. so I have not had in depth conversations with them as to their "love of it"

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

We have been excluding forest fires in the Porcupine Hills for over a century.

Yup nailed it. Funny how everyone mentions how an area needs a good burn but mention logging and their up in arms.

[woods_walker]

This neat project, the Mountain Legacy is worth a view. They don't have historic photos of the exact same spot as where you speak of, but do have some just west of there in the Bob Creek Wildland. Historical fires burning much more area than Spray Lakes would ever log, and no regard for riparian areas. It is worth taking a look at what id happen and what can still happen. http://explore.mountainlegacy.ca/historic_captures/8535

[CanadianEh]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

Yup nailed it. Funny how everyone mentions how an area needs a good burn but mention logging and their up in arms.

I have never ever heard anyone, let alone large groups of people say .. "Well that area needs to be Clear cut of all those 300 year old trees, cause we are scared there could be a fire one day! "

I am sure there are plenty of ways to log and harvest forests for fire prevention, without making clear cutting the majority of an old forest.

not saying a fire couldn't happen, as it can anytime... but if a tree can live to be 1000 years old.. I pretty well guarantee it will have lived through many fires during that time.

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by CanadianEh

I have never ever heard anyone, let alone large groups of people say .. "Well that area needs to be Clear cut of all those 300 year old trees, cause we are scared there could be a fire one day! "

I am sure there are plenty of ways to log and harvest forests for fire prevention, without making clear cutting the majority of an old forest.

not saying a fire couldn't happen, as it can anytime... but if a tree can live to be 1000 years old.. I pretty well guarantee it will have lived through many fires during that time.

Where I'm from the average natural life span of a forest is 140 years old with forest fires and disease.

[slickwilly]

You definitely won't catch me saying that we should be logging 1000 year old trees, I'm in favour of all the wilderness protection we can get.

But, when done right, logging can be a great way to add variety to landscape, like there would be if fires were allowed to burn. Some areas can get on a cycle of regular grassfires that don't damage the trees, which is what I expect is seen in those really long lived trees (which I think were from the SW US). Up here, it sure seems like we have fires that come in and wipe out whole stands.

As for selective logging, I don't think you would get very good regen from Doug Fir using a system like that, since they are pretty shade-intolerant seedlings, and grow back much better in full sun.

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

We have been excluding forest fires in the Porcupine Hills for over a century.

X2 They are logging the Cypress Hills because it is such a huge fire risk. Was told by a person in the parks service that a fire would be the best thing, but with all the ranches around the park it would be tricky.

[silver lab]

[QUOTE=CanadianEh;3480617]Just did some quick research, Douglas firs commonly live more than 500 years and occasionally more than 1,000 years. Apparently they are also quite fire resistant with thick bark acting like an insulator to the fire, as I assume they would have to be to live 500-1000 years. I would bet fire has gone through that forest maybe even a few times long before we were here to ever see it, or extinguish it.

IMHO the argument that these trees should be cut down becasue of fire risk and being they are 200-300 years old when it has a life cycle of 500-1000 years, holds no water. and is likely a logging companies way to lobby government.

AS mentioned, I do not disagree with logging. it has its place for industry and conservation. But to go clear cut massive forests of 300 year old trees is plain ignorant and stupid. Places like this should be SELECTIVELY logged, taking younger trees which regenerate much much faster. Not clear cut.


It pains me that my sons, grandsons, great grandsons, great grand sons will likely never see a stunning valley of trees far older than Canada itself. just becasue of the short sightedness and someone wanting to make a few $$ in the name of industry. These places are the types of places that should be preserved for future generations, for hunting, camping, hiking, OHV. horseback etc etc etc...

p.s. Sounds very tree hugger ( which I am not) but I would like to preserve natural wonders for future generations. Also, I cannot personally speak to the wildlife, they have never spoken back to date.. so I have not had in depth conversations with them as to their "love of it"[/QUOTE


By quick research you mean you googled "douglas fir tree"?
Thanks. Most of this harvest was spruce trees, but even at that ever think that theses trees are mature and ready for harvest?
Are you saying you do not support a renewable resource?
Maybe have a look around your house and guess where the things made from wood come from...... Hunting itself is a renewable resource. Research it.....
You are from southern Alberta but i guess you couldnt see the porkys the last time they went up in flames? I did and ill never forget looking out my front window and seeing that. People died but hey you saved some trees. Thanks.
Your kids will be fine turns out your gov is setting aside enough land so your kids get to see a tree.
PS. You dont need to talk to the deer to see what they like, just get out of your truck and watch them.
Hint: they eat grass not pine needles.

[NCC]

The logging doesn't bother me. Turning our forests into monolithic tree farms Bothers me a lot. I would like to see some of the logged off areas burned and allowed to regenerate naturally instead of being scarified and reseeded.

[Taco]

This round of log harvesting by SLS is the second or third time the Porcupine Hills have been logged in the past 125 yrs. The whole forested area from north of Pincher/Cowley to SW of Nanton is crosshatched with old logging trails.

[AB2506]

Originally Posted by CanadianEh

Yeah I did read that thread... but the last post was form 2015... Since then, this has occurred and no one has mentioned anything about it!!

If you use Google Earth ( not maps) once you zoom into an area, there is a little button in the lower left corner that shows a clock going backwards and a date. If you open that tool you can see as many pictures back in history that the satellite has ever taken.

And yes... I am one of the people who is shocked and furious over this clear cut logging, especially in an area that is such a OLD hidden treasure for all.

I am not against logging as an industry in anyway.. It has its place in forest conservation and safety.. but I do not find this much different than going in and cutting down all of the massive thousand year old trees in sequoia national park in the states..

Google pictures of the Porcupines from 1900. There were almost no trees. Only man's fire suppression has allowed trees to grow on the PH.

Yes there are a few firs on the west side that are huge. I would like to believe those would have been left.

Big game likes edge cover. Properly done logging will increase productivity of big game.

[calgarychef]

Originally Posted by NCC

The logging doesn't bother me. Turning our forests into monolithic tree farms Bothers me a lot. I would like to see some of the logged off areas burned and allowed to regenerate naturally instead of being scarified and reseeded.

x2!

[Bub]

Originally Posted by silver lab

PS. You dont need to talk to the deer to see what they like, just get out of your truck and watch them.

Judging by the guy's post on here, he does plenty of watching. So you do not need to tell him to get out of the truck. Just saying. The guy expressed a concern and you can reply to the concern in a respectful manner, like the manner he communicated his concern on here.

I am all for selective cutting, but not sure how that would reflect on costs. And I am not really familiar enough with the industry to comment on that.
I agree, it is hard to look at images like the ones posted, but it has to take place at one location or another. If all that is getting down are some spruce trees like silver lab stated, I am fine with that. However, if the OP is right, then I share his concern.

[CanadianEh]

Originally Posted by silver lab

By quick research you mean you googled "douglas fir tree"? Yes that is a good explanation of quick research

Thanks. Most of this harvest was spruce trees, but even at that ever think that theses trees are mature and ready for harvest? If you can show me the data which shows the harvest was mostly spruce trees I would be quite happy. And no, I dont think these old trees should be harvested here. Just becasue you CAN, doesnt mean you SHOULD

Are you saying you do not support a renewable resource? No I never said that at all.. I actually repeatedly said Logging has its place. just not harvesting 300 year old trees.

Maybe have a look around your house and guess where the things made from wood come from...... Hunting itself is a renewable resource. Research it..... I am well aware where wood comes from, but I can tell you with absolute certainty my house is not framed with Fir. It is framed with a MUCH MUCH faster growing tree called a Spruce, with a MUCH MUCH shorter life cycle.

You are from southern Alberta but i guess you couldnt see the porkys the last time they went up in flames? I did and ill never forget looking out my front window and seeing that. People died but hey you saved some trees. Thanks. Yeah fires suck, and are devastating.. I am not discounting the human life lost in anyway. All I said is there has to be a BETTER way then clear cutting these old forests, just for a few bucks ( in the name of fire protection)

Your kids will be fine turns out your gov is setting aside enough land so your kids get to see a tree. That is great, I am glad for it. Much like the Giant Sequoias in California, if they weren't protected way back when, how many do you think would be left? my guess is none or very few due to people like yourself.

PS. You dont need to talk to the deer to see what they like, just get out of your truck and watch them. I watch wildlife all the time, even though you dont need to watch them to know that they were all doing just fine in there before the logging, hence why there is such and abundance of wildlife. Now they are just far easier to see.

see comments in red

[KegRiver]

First, clear cut logging has close to the same effect as a forest fire, but without the cleansing effect of fire or the destruction of private property.

Second, clear cutting in blocks as seen there does three things I know of. It provides edge for creatures that prefer edge. It leaves half the old growth intact, and third, that old growth contributes to regeneration of the cut blocks by producing seed which disperses into the cut blocks naturally.

Regeneration is far faster then many people seem to think it is.

In a few months small saplings appear from roots that remain.
In two to three years conifers reseed the area.

At five years deciduous regrowth is four to five feet tall and reseeded Conifers are about a foot tall. In fifteen years they are head height.

Twenty years down the road you would never know the area was logged unless you walked through it and saw stumps.

I worked in logging for a number of years, as a regen surveyor and as a log truck driver.
I'm not a fan of logging, the way it is done now, but it's not the disaster some seem to think it is, and it does provide wood products that we all use and it employs a lot of people who would otherwise be competing for jobs and homes in the big city.

In my opinion there is only one way to log that is more environmentally friendly and that is selective cut Horse logging.
That is where only fully mature trees are harvested and then pulled to a landing by horses.
You can't log selectively with the equipment they use these days. They just can't maneuver tightly enough to get through the remaining trees.

Selective horse logging would drive the price of lumber and other wood products through the roof.


Who wants to pay ten times more for their 2x4s and paper products?

Would you pay a dollar more of a cup of Timmy's to cover the cost of the cup? I don't think so.

We complain about the oil sands, the clear cut logging, and the use of chemicals on farm crops, but no one wants to pay more for the products they buy.

Industry gives us what we demand. If we are willing to pay a premium we could have our 2x4s pulled out of the bush by a team of horses.

Are we willing to pay?

[ram crazy]

You forgot one thing in your statement, and that is for a greater chance of erosion. With no cover of trees you increase that chance immensely.

[openfire]

I was about to go on rant but KegRiver pretty much covered my thoughts.
Well Said KegRiver.

[Outcast]

Originally Posted by openfire

I was about to go on rant but KegRiver pretty much covered my thoughts.
Well Said KegRiver.

X2

[CanadianEh]

Apparently people cannot read.. Or just don't bother reading...

As I have said all along,
Logging is absolutely a crucial industry here in Alberta. And no one here is saying dont ever cut down a tree. Or that logging should not be allowed. This is not a is logging good or bad debate..

I am questioning why cut down forests containing 300+ year old fir trees? You cut that tree down once, and that's it for the next several hundred years.. Not a spruce that shoots back up in 20.

I would be extremely happy if someone had data showing all they harvested was spruce.. As I have little issue with that at all.

[Newview01]

Originally Posted by CanadianEh

Apparently people cannot read.. Or just don't bother reading...

As I have said all along,
Logging is absolutely a crucial industry here in Alberta. And no one here is saying dont ever cut down a tree. Or that logging should not be allowed. This is not a is logging good or bad debate..

I am questioning why cut down forests containing 300+ year old fir trees? You cut that tree down once, and that's it for the next several hundred years.. Not a spruce that shoots back up in 20.

I would be extremely happy if someone had data showing all they harvested was spruce.. As I have little issue with that at all.

We need fir as well. If there wasn't a need for it, it wouldn't be logged.