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  #31  
Old 01-22-2017, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Joe Black View Post
DIscharge permit, hmmmmmmmmmm

What you anti OHV eletists think of that smoking gun?

Oh not to worry. Business as usually without those pesky ATV's right?

I did read that in the draft as well. I do not hunt that area, so the actual hunting restrictions that WILL be placed in the area will not affect me positively or negatively. I am concerned of the overall ramifications of the NDP doing as they please, having a anti hunt/OHV/trapping/fishing/ etc agenda.

For those who feel this is a good thing, I suggest you sit down, read the 164 page document BEFORE you go online and agree to it cause you figure it's going to increase your hunting opportunities. You make the bed, you lay in it.

Discharge permits aren't new. You need one to hunt in WMU 936 where they've allowed hunting for years. It's more a safety thing to educate hunters about other groups using the grazing reserve because you get the permit after you take the orientation course.
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  #32  
Old 01-22-2017, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Dewey Cox View Post
The problem with atv's is that they wreck the land a little bit.
Not enough that it's a problem in moderation, but eventually, it's a problem.
I enjoy dirt biking, and come from a family of avid (and much better than me) dirt bikers. We ride on family owned land, and have a ton of fun.
But...
That land looks like it's been dirt biked all over.
When you have a vehicle with aggressive tires, it's going to leave a mark.
It's no big deal when the land is owned by people who like to climb hills, and make high speed turns, and go through wet spots (which all leave a mark).
Public land is there for everyone to enjoy, and the general idea is to leave it in it's natural state. When everyone is running their atv's over it, it is no longer in it's natural state.
I don't really understand why people feel it's their right to damage public land this way.
Don't get me wrong, I love ripping big roostertails, and climbing hills, and going as far as a machine can take me. But I do it on my own land, or on someone's land who is also ok with it.
Public land is for everyone, and unlimited atv use just isn't sustainable. (It's not. Don't kid yourself)
The cattle do a lot more damage in than the OHV's. The logging does a lot more damage than the OHV's. The gas/oil companies do a lot more damage than the OHV's. Mother Nature does a lot more damage than the OHV's. But I guess it's easier to blame the OHV's than anything else. There are a lot of selfish hunters out there. There is still lots of game in the bush even with machines running around, the problem with you people is you have to get off the beaten path to find animals. Just about every time I go out I see people walk right by animals. Using a machine to get in and out of an area is nice and usually the ones that do the most bitching are the ones that don't have machines and are jealous. I personally don't care if a machine goes by me in the bush or not.
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  #33  
Old 01-22-2017, 08:31 AM
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I'm not sure what the solution is and I see both sides, but there has been abuse. There have been areas closed in 400 to OHV use for a long time that have been ignored by hunters. Members here actually. We have also seen video here of dirt bikes riding mountain peaks right here on the front range. I here people bragging every summer about how they get around the vehicle camping rules in there. Every time I go up there there is some type of motorized vehicle parked in the creek. It's unfortunate, but it is abused and that IS a reality.

Motorized vehicle use and abuse is very often why private land is cut off to Hunter access as well.
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  #34  
Old 01-22-2017, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Fur View Post
We banned poaching right? That solved the problem right?

Anyone who wants to ban a sport or a pastime that is enjoyed by others but not by ones self is nothing short of selfish.

In every sport/pastime there are bad apples: poachers (fishing and hunting), campers who leave garbage, hikers who leave garbage etc. Eventually, just as everyone here has said everyone's sport/past time will be banned.
I totally agree!
Also want to add that this is the beginning of a long slippery slope of more restrictions and exclusions. People should fight this hard. There are already enough exclusion areas in Alberta, much of the eastslopes are a park of some kind or another, only small groups get to enjoy them. Residents need nice places to recreate, and not just with a back pack on or in a saddle.
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  #35  
Old 01-22-2017, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Dewey Cox View Post
The problem with atv's is that they wreck the land a little bit.
Not enough that it's a problem in moderation, but eventually, it's a problem.
I enjoy dirt biking, and come from a family of avid (and much better than me) dirt bikers. We ride on family owned land, and have a ton of fun.
But...
That land looks like it's been dirt biked all over.
When you have a vehicle with aggressive tires, it's going to leave a mark.
It's no big deal when the land is owned by people who like to climb hills, and make high speed turns, and go through wet spots (which all leave a mark).
Public land is there for everyone to enjoy, and the general idea is to leave it in it's natural state. When everyone is running their atv's over it, it is no longer in it's natural state.
I don't really understand why people feel it's their right to damage public land this way.
Don't get me wrong, I love ripping big roostertails, and climbing hills, and going as far as a machine can take me. But I do it on my own land, or on someone's land who is also ok with it.
Public land is for everyone, and unlimited atv use just isn't sustainable. (It's not. Don't kid yourself)
As an ATV and snowmobile owner, I have to agree with you unfortunately. I think in a few years, the whole province will be closed to OHV and random camping in an RV on public lands. Too many people in this province now, and too many people abusing it when they go out west. I think the only hope for ongoing OHV use in this province is a trail system maintained by volunteers and user fees. Something like the snowmobile trail system in Golden.
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  #36  
Old 01-22-2017, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by husky7mm View Post
I totally agree!
Also want to add that this is the beginning of a long slippery slope of more restrictions and exclusions. People should fight this hard. There are already enough exclusion areas in Alberta, much of the eastslopes are a park of some kind or another, only small groups get to enjoy them. Residents need nice places to recreate, and not just with a back pack on or in a saddle.
Also, a serious investment in enforcement and education of the existing laws would go a long way towards preserving natural areas. Give SRD, Fish&Wildlife, and RCMP the power, people and resources to make a meaningful enforcement effort.

We'll all have to work together to balance the competing interests but most importantly make sure we're preserving our natural areas for everyone's use and future generations.

The problem is some recreational activities are more destructive than others. OHV use is worse than most. It shouldn't be about banning/restricting the activities you don't like/take part in, so hopefully that's not what it's about. Like I said though, even as an ATV and snowmobile owner, hard to compare the long term impact to just about any other recreational activity out there. By far, one of the most damaging.
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  #37  
Old 01-22-2017, 05:54 PM
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Fighting for unlimited atv use on public land is a battle that can't be won.
Maybe atv users should be pushing for designated atv trails/areas?
Quadding is obviously an activity that Albertans want to take part in, so there should be space for it somewhere.
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  #38  
Old 01-22-2017, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ram crazy View Post
Hopefully you don't cry when they close it down to hunting as well. The problem with clowns like you are, it's all about me. We all have to ban together and play fair in the sandbox as multiple user groups, so areas don't get shut down to everyone.
This is the statement I can't push enough. Good job
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  #39  
Old 01-22-2017, 08:54 PM
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It's funny that this is happening as I'm currently in the market for a quad, perticularly for this area, but at the same time, I love this area soooo much that, I will not slander anybody who wants to conserve it! I will choose too follow the rules, as there is many other alternatives! That being said, these people aren't winning anybody over!
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  #40  
Old 01-23-2017, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by bessiedog View Post
Ramcrazy... I'd love to play with other user groups.... but I find that the *****hat contingency of the quadder/side by side is big. Refuses to self regulate, and the law simply does not get applied to them at all. Many many many ohv users don't even have a sniff what legal-sustainable use looks like in the bush. Instead of accepting blame and changing their behavior... they use the ole 'others are worse, so what's your problem..?'... sheesh

If we had ohv cops. I believe our problems would be solved.

But we don't, and won't.... despite the obvious that greater enforcement would easily generate more revenue than the parks-ban approach.
This, every group claims that the problems are "a small select group of jerks" but with motor sports this percentage seems to be way bigger than any other group, and I say this as a guy who greatly enjoys dirt biking and quadding.

For another I cant think of any other special interest group that completely ruins the area's that they use for other interest groups. Go to any heavily used ATV area and it is often unfit for pretty much anything else. No other activity that I can think of does this to such a degree.
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  #41  
Old 01-23-2017, 06:32 AM
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Again in this thread it shows that we can never stand united and find a happy medium, hunting, atv, fishing, outdoor activities therefore the powers that be look at this as a bunch of school kids so they step in and set the rules and regs.
Some will like and some will dislike but remember this, it started with us!
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  #42  
Old 01-23-2017, 06:41 AM
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Just wondering how did hunters hunt prior to the invention of the quad??? How did they retrieve harvested game?? No atvs but people still hunted??? How ??? It's a strange world
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  #43  
Old 01-23-2017, 06:56 AM
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Just wondering how did hunters hunt prior to the invention of the quad??? How did they retrieve harvested game?? No atvs but people still hunted??? How ??? It's a strange world
You mean when there was less people, so no need to spread out as far, when land owner let everyone use their land without asking permission. Or maybe you're talking about the time where their was less park and less regulation, allowing people to hunt more freely.

Times have changed, my grand father used to hunt year round, no tag, no limit. Kill the first animal he saw, buck or doe, eat it, then go back kill another one..... I dare you do the same these days.
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  #44  
Old 01-23-2017, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by LKILR View Post
Just wondering how did hunters hunt prior to the invention of the quad??? How did they retrieve harvested game?? No atvs but people still hunted??? How ??? It's a strange world
Do you have a problem with using an ATV to hunt? Than don't use one.
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  #45  
Old 01-23-2017, 07:52 AM
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No problem. I've used atvs for hunting and rec. but the abuse is causing the shut downs. You thinks if they shut down an area to atvs then hunting will be next??? You need a better argument than that to get me on board. In the past 20 years I have seen significant damage caused from atv use in WMU 402. I will be taking some pics next summer and sending a letter with pics to the oldman watershed council. The erosion that follows with atv ruts is very noticeable.
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  #46  
Old 01-23-2017, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by LKILR View Post
No problem. I've used atvs for hunting and rec. but the abuse is causing the shut downs. You thinks if they shut down an area to atvs then hunting will be next??? You need a better argument than that to get me on board. In the past 20 years I have seen significant damage caused from atv use in WMU 402. I will be taking some pics next summer and sending a letter with pics to the oldman watershed council. The erosion that follows with atv ruts is very noticeable.
Unless you have been alive prior to the invention of the quad most of you might not notice the change.
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  #47  
Old 01-23-2017, 07:59 AM
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Maybe is some other areas of the province it's not too bad. I don't know. But on the southeastern slopes the erosion that follows is a serious problem
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  #48  
Old 01-23-2017, 08:55 AM
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No-ones hunting is being taken away. Willmore is a park and hunting has been allowed for 30 years. Did hunting get banned because there are no ATVS? as is Cooking Lake Blackfoot, as are all the Wildland Parks that allow hunting.

Fishing is going to get better too, without all the trashed streams and less casual pressure.

This country is going to get a whole lot wilder. As an outdoorsman that is good news. The amount of places you can get away from the whine of an engine in this province is still tiny.

Hunters and ATV users are 2 very different groups - there is a bit of overlap obviously, but most OHV users don't represent my interests, or conservation, or the best interests of hunters.
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  #49  
Old 01-23-2017, 09:39 AM
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I have the answer:
Since we cannot cull the feral horse populations, perhaps they can be usefully deployed- use them for riding access to the castle. There, kills 2 birds!
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  #50  
Old 01-23-2017, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by sjd View Post
No-ones hunting is being taken away. Willmore is a park and hunting has been allowed for 30 years. Did hunting get banned because there are no ATVS? as is Cooking Lake Blackfoot, as are all the Wildland Parks that allow hunting.

Fishing is going to get better too, without all the trashed streams and less casual pressure.

This country is going to get a whole lot wilder. As an outdoorsman that is good news. The amount of places you can get away from the whine of an engine in this province is still tiny.

Hunters and ATV users are 2 very different groups - there is a bit of overlap obviously, but most OHV users don't represent my interests, or conservation, or the best interests of hunters.

Yes, everything will get better. problem this is the first step to curtail the amount of "outdoors man" activities there will be. Look at Kananaskis. Areas closed to hunting. Other areas little or no general licences. Draw or guided hunts only. hope you have deep pockets or are happy to only go hunting every 3-5 years. its coming. having discharge permits is a good way to get a count on how many hunters are in there. all they need to do is say "its too many according to their calculations" and close/limit the access through draws. cant believe people cant see that.

so will the "experience" be better? probably "yes", for the fraction of the users there were in the past.

read the plan. in their words, hunting will be used as a management tool. not much different than other places, but you only need to look to kananaskis for a future frame work.
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  #51  
Old 01-23-2017, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by LKILR View Post
Just wondering how did hunters hunt prior to the invention of the quad??? How did they retrieve harvested game?? No atvs but people still hunted??? How ??? It's a strange world
they used jeeps flat fender willies they have been around since the 1940's the ultimate hunting rig .
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  #52  
Old 01-23-2017, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by LKILR View Post
Just wondering how did hunters hunt prior to the invention of the quad??? How did they retrieve harvested game?? No atvs but people still hunted??? How ??? It's a strange world
They cut them up and packed them out on their backs, horseback, boat or canoe etc., or simply dragged them for long distances. In reality many areas simply didn't see the numbers and frequencies of hunters back in the day that presently hunt in these areas now that quad trails and roads allow easy quick access to today. I know many areas that you rarely ever saw another hunter and supported lots of game especially larger game like moose and elk only 10 to 15 years ago that are now heavily hunted simply because of easy access with quads and game is scarce. I find myself hunting closer to town as there are fewer and fewer hunters close to town now that quads allow access way out in the bush where everybody takes their quads to get as 'far back' as possible.
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  #53  
Old 01-23-2017, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by LKILR View Post
Just wondering how did hunters hunt prior to the invention of the quad??? How did they retrieve harvested game?? No atvs but people still hunted??? How ??? It's a strange world
They used to pound trucks into these places.
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  #54  
Old 01-23-2017, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by LKILR View Post
No problem. I've used atvs for hunting and rec. but the abuse is causing the shut downs. You thinks if they shut down an area to atvs then hunting will be next??? You need a better argument than that to get me on board. In the past 20 years I have seen significant damage caused from atv use in WMU 402. I will be taking some pics next summer and sending a letter with pics to the oldman watershed council. The erosion that follows with atv ruts is very noticeable.
Have you seen the damage in WMU 402 that the lumber companies have done, have you seen the damage the cattle did in WMU 402, have you seen the damage Mother Nature did in WMU 402, have you seen the damage the gas/oil companies did in WMU 402, have you seen the damage the mining companies did in WMU 402, have you seen the damage campers have done in WMU 402. If your going to point fingers remember there are three fingers pointing back at you as well. Don't be a Hippocrate!!
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  #55  
Old 01-23-2017, 08:40 PM
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Default Ah yes..... the classic red herring gets whipped out..

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Have you seen the damage in WMU 402 that the lumber companies have done, have you seen the damage the cattle did in WMU 402, have you seen the damage Mother Nature did in WMU 402, have you seen the damage the gas/oil companies did in WMU 402, have you seen the damage the mining companies did in WMU 402, have you seen the damage campers have done in WMU 402. If your going to point fingers remember there are three fingers pointing back at you as well. Don't be a Hippocrate!!
This is the old , worn out, tired 'deflection-distraction' argument. It's old, tiring, and just soooo drives me around the bend. Red herring...!

Yes Ram Crazy... and pine beetle destroys wayyy more backcountry than ANY of the big bass YOU've mentioned...... so I'm being bad-wrong cause I'm not dealing with that issue.

..... somehow this excuses the damage quads do?....

Sad... and silly and very invalid argument.

Thanks for trying to derail.
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  #56  
Old 01-23-2017, 09:01 PM
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This is the old , worn out, tired 'deflection-distraction' argument. It's old, tiring, and just soooo drives me around the bend. Red herring...!

Yes Ram Crazy... and pine beetle destroys wayyy more backcountry than ANY of the big bass YOU've mentioned...... so I'm being bad-wrong cause I'm not dealing with that issue.

..... somehow this excuses the damage quads do?....

Sad... and silly and very invalid argument.

Thanks for trying to derail.
Whats so invalid about any of things that do more damage then OHV's is it because you don't have one. I mean if you truly want to preserve the pristine wilderness maybe all it should be shut down for all users. Once again it's all about the what ever benefits me and screw the rest.
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  #57  
Old 01-23-2017, 09:08 PM
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I've seen a few people mention they are afraid that there will be less tags as a result of this park. There is no way to prevent the population from growing, or people living and recreating where they do, so its possible that some zones will go to the draw that aren't now. But, if you want to delay or prevent that from happening, limiting access and reducing success rates are the best ways to keep hunter opportunity.
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  #58  
Old 01-23-2017, 10:03 PM
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Be careful what you wish for . . . you might get it and worse.

Let's take a look at the different uses of the Castle area and I might miss some. There is down hill skiing, cross country skiing, quadding, mountain biking, hunting, fishing, bird/wildlife watching, photography, hiking, camping, horse back riding, target practice, random camping, berry picking, firewood cutting, Christmas tree cutting, transplant (trees) gathering, dirt biking, trapping, guiding, running cattle in the hills and there was gas/oil exploration and cutting of trees for lumber.

When the government said no more gas/oil exploration and cutting trees for lumber there was a collective cheer from lots of people because these uses of the forestry were evil. Then someone tried to get a firewood permit only to find out that you couldn't but they changed their minds on that later. They probably will change their minds again.

Now there is another collective cheer going up about the closing down of the use of OHV in the Castle because they are the next evil to be gotten rid of.

There was also another collective cheer about the random camping because random campers are evil because of the messes some of them leave behind.

I listen and have read that this is all okay because it doesn't affect them. I've also read and heard as long as they don't mess with my hunting/ fishing it doesn't matter about the other users. We've made a big mistake. We should have rallied together to be a strong force against the government instead of numerous entities that only want to look out for their special interest.

Let us look at the changes that have happened since one of their first announcements. OHV would not be affected, there would be trails that riders could use . . . now 2-5 years there will be none

I've seen what they call random camping, great if you like circling the wagons around a fire pit with other random campers . . . not random camping in my books. What will happen to camping during hunting season . . . this year already Castle Bridge, Castle Falls and Lynx Creek were closed, you could haul your unit up to Beaver Mines though or you could stay at Beauvais.

Just remember the government is changing what they said they would do, yes OHVs-no OHVs. This could happen to the activity you like doing in the Castle. Here's one that just crossed my mind . . . you know that berry picking you like . . . that will be a thing of the past, when camping in Peter Lougheed they would always tell us "we don't mind if you pick a few for going down the trail but leave you berry pails at home, the berries are for the wildlife." Remember what the say about the activity you like doing it could be their next evil.

Be careful what you wish for you might get it or worse.

Sorry if this may ramble but my mind can go way faster then my fingers.
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  #59  
Old 01-23-2017, 10:18 PM
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That's exactly what I've been trying to say geezer. But you have those like bessiedog who don't think it matters as long as his hunting doesn't get taken away. I find it quite funny that the government spent how many millions of dollars to repair the trails and bridges in WMU 400 just to close it all down. The Little Miss Phillips had a hidden agenda and with no opposition to stop the NDP. By the time the next election comes along every Albertan resident may have something to lose.
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  #60  
Old 01-23-2017, 10:19 PM
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Default Your argument boils down to...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ram crazy View Post
Whats so invalid about any of things that do more damage then OHV's is it because you don't have one. I mean if you truly want to preserve the pristine wilderness maybe all it should be shut down for all users. Once again it's all about the what ever benefits me and screw the rest.
'Oh look... there's something worse... so I'm ok'...... wrong!

You cite oil-gas..... but I see the overweighing benifits of them.. and o&g have been in 402 a looong time... don't mess my hunts, hikes and fishin up much.

Forestry .... hmmm... I hunt clearcuts, I camp in clearcuts.... I get mushrooms from them as well..... forestry been around for loooong time too. Proper silviculture actually helps my hunts.

Quads..... come on the scene for real bout 20 years ago.
Wrecked several of my streams (Lost is a bit of a mess)...

Wrecked my easy hike to elk patch... elk moved on once some knothead punched an illegal trail through the valley.

Wrecked many many 'multi-use' trails (north McGillvary..... In SPITE of the Quad Squads best efforts to repair the trail... that's just one example.).

So even if I decide to go down the 'change the subject path'... your counter evidence don't work for me actually.

I've hunted around o&g since forever..... never had much of a problem.
I see clearcuts as a pretty good thing for critters.

Quads...... nope. Them users just don't play nice with other sportsmen.

It is as simple as that.

This has been hashed over tonnes and tonnes here.

What's interesting is that so many on this board see quads and a net negative to the outdoor experience.

Ps. Geezer.....

Random camping was still happening last year up Lynx, down the Carbondale etc. They just didn't allow over 14 day stays. You could park your hunting rig wherever and set up camp.... I saw lots of this. So what are you talking about??
Did the most recent announcement restrict this.... if so, I didn't see it.

PPS..... I buy lots of Quad Squad raffle tix... so don't even try and paint me as anti- tree huggy whatever.

Responsible quads r fine wit me. Responsible quaffing... designated trails... stay on em... but we all know that just don't happen.
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Last edited by bessiedog; 01-23-2017 at 10:32 PM.
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