45 Auto advice wanted

[1965BB]

Looking to purchase and .45 Auto. I do like the H&K with the double stack mag but it is very pricey. Who doesn't like a Kimber? CZ seems priced right! Is the weight of metal vs composite of Glocks a factor? Give me your thoughts, especially if you own one.
I will also consider a good used one at a fair price.

[Scott N]

I kind of like the 1911s. If I was looking for a .45, I would probably take a look at the Ruger 1911, or I've heard that STI Spartan is a good 1911 for the price.

[M.C. Gusto]

How much do you want to spend? What style of gun so you want to own, Synthetic (glock etc) or traditional 1911 type?

[qwert]

I suggest you consider purchasing a GSG 1911-22 and a Norinco 1911-45.

The Norinco 1911-45 is a correct milspec 1911, and the GSG 1911-22 is almost milspec. The guns feel almost identical and use the same holsters, procedures and failure drills. The GSG slide and barrel and magazine can even be used as a conversion kit for the Norinco. The Norinco has a forged frame and is a good place to begin building a high quality custom gun.

The GSG is a free gun after ~800 rounds just because of the savings on ammo compared to 45acp and will also allow you to shoot a LOT more without developing a flinch. Handgun accuracy is all about practice and you can do a LOT more of it with a 22 than you will do with a 45acp.

The Norinco 1911-45 government model is/was available from Canada Ammo for $500 with 1000 rounds of 45acp and this combined with the ~$400 cost of a GSG 1911-22 is similar to most common bare pistols.

I also suspect that the GSG will be an excellent way to introduce your significant other to handgun shooting and this will result in a LOT more support for your activities. I have introduced several ladies to shooting 45acp by introducing and training them with the GSG 22 first and then working up to the 45acp after which they smiled a lot and said that the 45 was a lot easier than they expected.

Good Luck, YMMV

[rugatika]

If you're looking for a 1911 have a look at STI. I have the trojan and it's a pretty decent gun for a little over a grand. (and I think they quit with the giant TROJAN stamp on the slide recently as well.) I think the difference between the trojan and spartan is the trojan has more hand fitting than the spartan. I've read lots of good about the kimbers, but every once in a while you see a disgruntled owner. Could just be something that goes with the territory of selling lots of 1911's though.

Also have the glock gen4 in 45acp as well and yes it is quite a bit lighter. It feels a little big in the hand compared to the 1911, but I find that I like the fuller feel when shooting it...added the beavertail on my glock that comes with the gen4 as racking the slide was leaving marks on the top of my hand...so thought I better stike pre-emptively to avoid any slide bite.

[adogwiththumbs]

I have nothing but good to say about my Kimber stainless 1911 .45 Only cycling issue was caused by poor magazine. Be cautious of cheaper 10 round magazines.

If I wanted to spend a little less, I'd get the ruger sr1911. Very nice for the price.

[connexion123]

Springfield Armoury is what I recommend. 7-1000$ depending on model etc.

I hate the kimbers. Stove piped on me all the time. Ymmv though.

My friend shoots an H&K and loves it. Too pricey for me too.

[Janitor Pants]

Originally Posted by adogwiththumbs

I have nothing but good to say about my Kimber stainless 1911 .45 Only cycling issue was caused by poor magazine. Be cautious of cheaper 10 round magazines.

If I wanted to spend a little less, I'd get the ruger sr1911. Very nice for the price.

X2

Had some cycling issues and failure to feed with the stock magazine. The two other kimber magazines I purchased work perfectly fine.

I took some emery cloth to the lips on the stock magazine and took off just the tiniest bit of material from each lip and now it feeds flawlessly as well.

[bearhunting]

I picked up a norinco 1911 from can am this winter on the package deal
$500 bucks for gun and 1000 rounds ammo . love the gun but the ammo didn't last that long I have put 1500 rounds through it without a miss
gun still runs smooth and takes my reloads well
JUST DIDN'T LIKE THE BATTLE SIGHTS CHANGED THEM OUT FOR ADJUSTABLE

[7mm08]

I love my Ruger SR1911. No complaints at all

[Unregistered user]

^x2

[Nakachun]

Hi-Point is awesome in 45 acp.

[Dewey Cox]

I bought the norinco from canada ammo too. Works well, and has no "made in china" or "norinco" markings on it.
The combo has been sold out for a while, but I think that the pistol on its own is on sale right now for $300.

[SkytopBrewster]

Love my 1911s but my favorite is still my P-220 Combat.

[bobinthesky]

The Ruger SR1911 is very good value for the money and is a true Colt series 70 clone with most of the bells and whistles for around $700.
The Norinco 1911A1C (commander) is a great deal right now too, delivered to your door for under $400, it's a steal! Compared to the standard Norinco 1911A1, for about $30 or $40 bucks more you get extended mag release, extended slide release, extended and ambidextrous safety, extended beavertail grip, looped hammer and long trigger. The finish on them is leaps and bounds better than they used to be as well! Not even close to a Colt finish but better for sure.
The Norinco's I've seen are as accurate out of the box as most 1911's costing 3 or 4 times that much, will probably outlast those guns and are a lot cheaper.

[1965BB]

Thanks for all the info. I currently have a Norinco NP 40 in 40 cal. To this point the price is the only thing that impressed me. Looks like I am in for a little more research. Keep chiming in with your thoughts.

[slam]

For something a little different you may want to look at the Ruger SR45. Nice reliable little pistol.

[cpppark]

Kimber works for me, never had an issue with it. I think that a good value right now is the new Ruger.

[Quinn]

Sig Tac Ops is enjoyable to shoot. Great finish overall.

I've heard of Stainless Kimbers rusting which means they use a very low quality stainless. That turned me off.

Lots of good guns to choose from! 45 is challenging to shoot but rewarding and fun. I'm more accurate with the 1911 Tac Ops vs the 9mm 226 Tac Ops. No idea why.

[Fredo]

Currently trying to jam my Sig Sauer Tac Ops, and it did not happen yet after more than 3 000 rds in less than a year. This gun gobble and spit everything from chinese dirty ammo to flimsy reloads and factory loads without any hiccup. Not even a stovepipe with weak reloads. Accuracy amaze, me every time.

Apart from a Nighthawk, Wilson Ed Brown... I have not seen better on the market. Sure it is not fancy looking and won't you go very far in IPSC compared to an STI but the TacOps is tough as nail and cheaper. They go to less than 1100 in a big outlet.

Forget those sassy overpriced Kimber, unless you're one of those person who think the bling is more important than the bang.

The TacOps was (is?) Blackwater (or X, or Academi whatever) sidearms, there is a reason for that.

Had a Canadian-made Para Ordnance GI Expert a few yrs ago. Not so great for $700, Parakote is an awful coating. My norc 1911 copy is sturdier and uglier but it is 1/3 the price.

[Fredo]

Originally Posted by Quinn

I'm more accurate with the 1911 Tac Ops vs the 9mm 226 Tac Ops. No idea why.

The ergonomics and the barrel angle of the Tac Ops is incredibly natural, plus it is a slim single stack... Have the same problem with most 9mm.

[qwert]

Originally Posted by 1965BB

Thanks for all the info. I currently have a Norinco NP 40 in 40 cal. To this point the price is the only thing that impressed me. Looks like I am in for a little more research. Keep chiming in with your thoughts.

I suspect that your NP40 is a similar quality to the Norc 1911-45 but there are some differences. AFAIK the NP40 is a reverse engineered clone or copy of the CZ85?, I do not know if the CZ has a cast or forged frame or how the internals are built, but IIRC the NP40 has a forged frame and MIM cast internals.

Colt 1911-45s were originally built with forged frames and machined bar stock internals, and top quality custom guns are still built this way. Current clones are mostly reverse engineered designs with cast frames and MIM cast internals. Many clones (including Kimber) are not true milspec designs, some have better finish and claim improved features and operation.

The Norinco 1911s are true milspec and AFAIK are the ONLY gun for which Norinco pays a design license fee, AFAIK Norinco purchased the factory machinery and manufacturing jigs and plans from Colt and this is why they pay the design license fee. They are built with frames forged from 4100? steel which is very hard material, is very hard to machine and requires carbide cutters and slow feed speeds. The barrels are chrome plated and have standard rifling which makes them suitable for shooting inexpensive plain lead bullets which Glocks or similar polygonal barrels do not like. AFAIK, the internals and small parts are made of MIM cast material, the fit and finish is standard Norinco quality and they do go bang with regularity. The hard frames are desired by many as an inexpensive starting place to learn 1911 gun-smithing and for building hand fitted pistols with high quality machined bar-stock internals. You can buy a lot of custom Ed Brown or Dlask milspec parts for the price of a Kimber.

IMHO they are very good value and 'bang for the buck', they are good for someone who wants to take them apart and improve them. They will never be a Gold Cup, but they are affordable fun and a great learning experience.

Good Luck, YMMV

[7mm08]

I looked at the SR45 a while back. Reminded me of the old P series. I still have a P85 in 9mm that gets a lot of range time.

[Unregistered user]

Originally Posted by qwert

I suspect that your NP40 is a similar quality to the Norc 1911-45 but there are some differences. AFAIK the NP40 is a reverse engineered clone or copy of the CZ85?, I do not know if the CZ has a cast or forged frame or how the internals are built, but IIRC the NP40 has a forged frame and MIM cast internals.

Colt 1911-45s were originally built with forged frames and machined bar stock internals, and top quality custom guns are still built this way. Current clones are mostly reverse engineered designs with cast frames and MIM cast internals. Many clones (including Kimber) are not true milspec designs, some have better finish and claim improved features and operation.

The Norinco 1911s are true milspec and AFAIK are the ONLY gun for which Norinco pays a design license fee, AFAIK Norinco purchased the factory machinery and manufacturing jigs and plans from Colt and this is why they pay the design license fee. They are built with frames forged from 4100? steel which is very hard material, is very hard to machine and requires carbide cutters and slow feed speeds. The barrels are chrome plated and have standard rifling which makes them suitable for shooting inexpensive plain lead bullets which Glocks or similar polygonal barrels do not like. AFAIK, the internals and small parts are made of MIM cast material, the fit and finish is standard Norinco quality and they do go bang with regularity. The hard frames are desired by many as an inexpensive starting place to learn 1911 gun-smithing and for building hand fitted pistols with high quality machined bar-stock internals. You can buy a lot of custom Ed Brown or Dlask milspec parts for the price of a Kimber.

IMHO they are very good value and 'bang for the buck', they are good for someone who wants to take them apart and improve them. They will never be a Gold Cup, but they are affordable fun and a great learning experience.

Good Luck, YMMV

Where did you hear norinco pays a license fee for the 1911? I find it odd they'd pay to copy a 100 year old design yet rip-off everyone else's newer designs.

[bobinthesky]

Actually, the Norinco 1911's are made from 5100 chrome moly steel which is about 30 percent harder on the surface than the 4140 alloy that Colt uses in their modern day 1911's. The surface hardens very well but the steel stays ductil so wearing one of these guns out is virtually impossible and they're not prone to shattering. The downside is they are very difficult to machine and ruin cutters frequently but the Chinese don't care because they make the cutters too and labor is cheap.
In WWII and prior, Colt used steel that wasn't even as good as 4140 and spot heat treated it in the high stress area's so a lot of these old Colts will break or wear out with heavy use. They won't shatter either but generally just crack.

[Fredo]

Originally Posted by bobinthesky

Actually, the Norinco 1911's are made from 5100 chrome moly steel which is about 30 percent harder on the surface than the 4140 alloy that Colt uses in their modern day 1911's. The surface hardens very well but the steel stays ductil so wearing one of these guns out is virtually impossible and they're not prone to shattering. The downside is they are very difficult to machine and ruin cutters frequently but the Chinese don't care because they make the cutters too and labor is cheap.
In WWII and prior, Colt used steel that wasn't even as good as 4140 and spot heat treated it in the high stress area's so a lot of these old Colts will break or wear out with heavy use. They won't shatter either but generally just crack.

Great info, thanks!

[qwert]

Originally Posted by Unregistered user

Where did you hear norinco pays a license fee for the 1911? I find it odd they'd pay to copy a 100 year old design yet rip-off everyone else's newer designs.

AFAIK, it was required by Colt as a condition for sale of the factory machinery and jigs to Norinco. I suspect that the license fee is minimal and mostly symbolic considering the number of clone manufacturers who pay nothing.

[qwert]

Originally Posted by bobinthesky

Actually, the Norinco 1911's are made from 5100 chrome moly steel which is about 30 percent harder on the surface than the 4140 alloy that Colt uses in their modern day 1911's. The surface hardens very well but the steel stays ductil so wearing one of these guns out is virtually impossible and they're not prone to shattering. The downside is they are very difficult to machine and ruin cutters frequently but the Chinese don't care because they make the cutters too and labor is cheap.
In WWII and prior, Colt used steel that wasn't even as good as 4140 and spot heat treated it in the high stress area's so a lot of these old Colts will break or wear out with heavy use. They won't shatter either but generally just crack.

Thanks for this additional information, I was having trouble remembering the alloy number. How does this material respond to slide tightening procedures such as pressing the slide sides before lapping?

I would like to have front sight dovetails cut in 2 slides but do not know who is best equipped to do this for me? I suspect I will need to buy a carbide dovetail cutter.

[bobinthesky]

I can't tell you how it reacts to tightening since most smiths accurizing 1911's do this as a last resort anyway.
There's easier ways to gain accuracy than pressing or peening slides. For instance, since the barrel locks in the slide, it's generally considered more productive to tighten up these areas first. Major results can be achieved by fitting a good barrel and bushing set, properly cutting the barrel lug, and fitting the appropriate barrel link to take up the slack. Polish up the trigger and sears, install some target sights and you've done a lot with little expenditure.
If you're not satisfied with the level of accuracy at this point, you may consider tightening the slide but it's a lot of work for little gain.

It might help if you offer to buy a carbide cutter but HSS mill bits can be used too if the area to be milled is heat treated with a torch first, more trouble than most smiths want I suspect though.

My apologies to the OP for the highjack...

[qwert]

Originally Posted by bobinthesky

I can't tell you how it reacts to tightening since most smiths accurizing 1911's do this as a last resort anyway.
There's easier ways to gain accuracy than pressing or peening slides. For instance, since the barrel locks in the slide, it's generally considered more productive to tighten up these areas first. Major results can be achieved by fitting a good barrel and bushing set, properly cutting the barrel lug, and fitting the appropriate barrel link to take up the slack. Polish up the trigger and sears, install some target sights and you've done a lot with little expenditure.
If you're not satisfied with the level of accuracy at this point, you may consider tightening the slide but it's a lot of work for little gain.

It might help if you offer to buy a carbide cutter but HSS mill bits can be used too if the area to be milled is heat treated with a torch first, more trouble than most smiths want I suspect though.

My apologies to the OP for the highjack...

I hope the OP is learning as much as I am.

I am not keen on slide work and am inclined to think that a little loose is good for reliability. I am doing as you suggest to improve guns that I suspect already shoot better than I do. I find the smithing an interesting learning experience but I do not have a mill and am limited to careful hand work. I like the Norcs as I would be afraid to damage a Gold Cup. The trigger work is rewarding as a little work results in a nice improvement and the 1911 triggers seem to be quite responsive to tune-up.

Thanks for the response.