Feelings about outfitters

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

2011 APOS Board of Directors

PRESIDENT

________________________________________ Gordon Burton


DIRECTOR

________________________________________ Billy Franklin


DIRECTOR

________________________________________ Brian Kuny



DIRECTOR

________________________________________ Corey Jarvis


DIRECTOR

________________________________________ Todd Loewen


DIRECTOR

________________________________________ Pete McMahon


DIRECTOR

________________________________________ Mike Ukrainetz


DIRECTOR

________________________________________ Chris Downing


DIRECTOR – MINISTER’S APPT Rick Blackwood

Okay,it's back to zero respect for APOS, unless of course you can confirm that they revoked Lloyd Mcmahons membership.

[trigger7mm]

It's too bad that people can get away with paid permission. I can see it from the landowners point of view to an extent. They pay the taxes, and in difficult times extra money sure helps. What I don't like is they deny access to local hunters so that outfitters can have exculsive access. Maybe go with foot access only. That would cut down the numbers of guys wanting on their land in a hurry.Who do you think would likely help a farmer out in a bind, pull you out of the ditch, etc. I sure don't think nonresidents would!

[trigger7mm]

Lefty Canuck, you are exactly right. It's that kind of greed that does absolutely nothing to help our sport.

[Tundra Monkey]

Originally Posted by Dago

The bigger the animal the bigger the tip, we are taking $10000 for a tip.

A $10k tip for a 8k hunt

You Sir.....know chit.

tm

[Ryry4]

The outfitters that I've used in the past have been excellent. Sure there are good and bad as stated, do your homework and you should be good. The way it sits in Canada if you want to hunt out of province more than likely you'll be hiring an outfitter. I've hunted with four different ones and have nothing but positive things to say. It's a business and the ones I know take it very seriously and put a lot of blood sweat and tears into their operations.

[RAK]

My hunting buddies and I are running into more cases, when asking for permission to hunt birds or deer on private land where the landowner says that "the game has been spoken for" or something similiar. This is land where in previous years permission was given without any problems. I have done some snooping around in a couple of the cases and found out that an outfitter seemed to have obtained exclusive rights for the property for the season. This obviously limits hunting opportunities for us locals. The question I have is: Should we blame the land owners or the outfiters for limiting our access to to the land? I suspect the more outfitters there are the more often we will run into this problem.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by RAK

The question I have is: Should we blame the land owners or the outfiters for limiting our access to to the land?

The blame first lies with the Government. SRD and Lands seem to always refuse to pursue these illegal activities, even when evidence is offered.

When the Gov. starts charging outfitters and land/lease owners with breaking these laws, the blame will lie on those convicted.

[H380]

Originally Posted by RAK

My hunting buddies and I are running into more cases, when asking for permission to hunt birds or deer on private land where the landowner says that "the game has been spoken for" or something similiar. This is land where in previous years permission was given without any problems. I have done some snooping around in a couple of the cases and found out that an outfitter seemed to have obtained exclusive rights for the property for the season. This obviously limits hunting opportunities for us locals. The question I have is: Should we blame the land owners or the outfiters for limiting our access to to the land? I suspect the more outfitters there are the more often we will run into this problem.

Find out who they are and report them to F&W... APOS would probably like their names as well .

[mulecrazy]

Originally Posted by H380

Find out who they are and report them to F&W... APOS would probably like their names as well .

you have to pay apos in order to file a complaint. what a joke....

[mulecrazy]

Originally Posted by Tundra Monkey

A $10k tip for a 8k hunt

You Sir.....know chit.

tm

LOL...
X2

what is that guy on. In my personal experiences with family members who have guided mulies and WT's, a good deer would get them a tip in the $500 range, a great deer would be in that $1000 range. But it would vary quite a bit. I know dad got $1000 and the guy never fired a shot, just enjoyed the hunt and he was very picky. on the other hand, he would sometimes get next to nothing if the guy was a *****. There were definetly all kinds of hunters to cater too.

[Ryry4]

Originally Posted by RAK

My hunting buddies and I are running into more cases, when asking for permission to hunt birds or deer on private land where the landowner says that "the game has been spoken for" or something similiar. This is land where in previous years permission was given without any problems. I have done some snooping around in a couple of the cases and found out that an outfitter seemed to have obtained exclusive rights for the property for the season. This obviously limits hunting opportunities for us locals. The question I have is: Should we blame the land owners or the outfiters for limiting our access to to the land? I suspect the more outfitters there are the more often we will run into this problem.

A landowner giving exclusive hunting rights to someone is not illegal as far as I know. Now if the landowner is getting paid, that is a different story.

[greylynx]

I would like to see the numbers to evaluate the situation.

All the numbers.

Any suggestions for most up to date sources?

[Lonnie]

Originally Posted by conner

I guided for 5-6yrs when I was younger and learned alot that made me a better hunter!!
As for being poaching !! NEVER !
There may be afew bad apples. But they do this for a living and cannot afford to loss there outfitters licence.
Also most of the animals that are getting poached are drunken fools out looking to shot something bigger then there looser buddy did!!

as for most of the animals getting poached are drunken fools they may get a few and are the one that get caught. when i was in BC there was a lot of poaching some were guides most were not but they were not drunk fools they were money hungry and the work at it they would run all night and into the next day casing a good bear they worked it as a business and worked hard at it and they made fantastic money at it. these are the ones that realy kill alot of wild life and there not lazy or drunks.

[Lonnie]

Originally Posted by LongBomber

I hunted for several years in various locations in Alberta, and still go back for a 4-5 day trip every year. I have actually never met anyone who identified themselves as a guide/client. I have met many other hunters, sat around the campfire at night and traded lies with many other hunters, but have never had a bad run-in with a guide.

Now here in BC I run into a guide/client 3-4 times a year and most are not happy to see you and 90% of the time are very rude and tell you to leave. They take an ownership of the area, I have been threatened a couple times, once with the assistant guide tapping his rifle as he told me I should leave because they had guns..

I could care less about their success rate it needs to be better than mine, its a business selling a product. However I do not like the attitude that they own the area and you have no right to be there. Here in the East Kootenays most of the guides cabins and area's are located within motor vehicle closures, which reduces hunting pressure, but if you walk or ride a bike in they are not impressed to see anyone within their area.

I would think everyone would have different feelings on the guiding issues depending on what the guides in the area they hunt are like. I have had enough bad run-ins that it has ruined my view of the industry here.

that owner ship of an area is crap in most of bc as most is crown land if they think that they can bluff you in to thinking that it is private land or they have specal privlidges on it, they will. and the east kootenays is the bad for this as there is a ton of guides in there for elk season and they wonder why most locals hate them.

[Gilly]

well i spent 5 years guiding in saskatchewan my home province. Now i have seen both sides of the fence and let me tell ya that not everyone can be painted by the same stroke. I have met some great people in the industry and i have met those that arent worth the boots they walk in. Never the less when you guide or outfit for a living theres a fine line between greed and feeding the family. I for one know how frustrating it can be when a guide tells you to leave an area because its his.lol. The sad thing is that the government owns 99% of the allotted crown land in which these hunts take place therefore everyone has equal opportunity to harvest their critter or just simply enjoy the landscape. BUT i also know the frustration of working hard and investing the time and money to set up areas to hunt deer only to have my trail cameras stolen , deer shot on my bait( yes the bait site is mine and you can hunt right beside me but you cant shoot deer off my bait) . Now you guys might understand why we are having a draw for non-resident whitetail here. Simply due to outfitter , non-resident conflict. i wont nag on and on but i vividly remember one frosty november morning during the peak of the rut. it was the last morning of my clients 6 day hunt and he had sat patiently for 4 years waiting for the "one". As we drove to the stand i herd a shot from that direction. well i thought naw couldnt be. well when i pulled in you could have herd a church mouse ****ing! here were two gents in their forties hunting out of my heated ground blind and to top it off the buck laying face down in the pile of oats scored no less than 180. My heart sank not only was i dissappointed but i had put in alot of time, beat the crap out of my quad, cut nice trail and hauled in everyhting alone to this area cause i knew it had potential. I looked at my hunter and was tongue tied. I didnt throw a big fit because im a firm believer in what comes around goes around and it did when the fines were issued. But at the end of the day i lost not only potential profit but that client vowed never to return. So i kinda viewed it the same as someone stealing off the shelves of someones store. As short as a deer season is you really gotta make your bread and butter quick. Now who knows maybe it could have been completley different and i would have had another happy client going home with a grin as wide as saskatchewan but instead he probably flew home and told most guys how his hunt turned into a gong show. Believe when i say this if you want to hear about outfitters sit at the saskatoon or edmonton airport during deer season grab yerself a coffee and listen to the clients as they mill around. you will here clients speak of guides, food the deer, the accomodations etc. Word travels faster than light in this business and im sure before they get home other hunters already know whats happening in camp. I know because ive seen and herd it. So to conclude this novel i have never had a problem with most of the other guides and outfitters who worked around me. If we could just learn to respect each other when we are in the field im sure there would be less conflict. Maybe a pipe dream but the greedier people get it seems hopeless. I GUESS IF YOU LOSE A FRIEND TO GAIN A TROPHY YOU'VE LOST ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS . NUFF SAID. These are only my opinions based on what i have seen or herd in my experience.

Gilly

[KegRiver]

Good post Gilly.

I know the frustration. But from the other side.
I was fortunate that when I worked as a guide, that sort of thing was rare and we worked an area with very little traffic.

Since then, hunting as a private individual, I have encountered that sort of thing, a few times. From other private (hunters).
Again I was fortunate in that I have, to this day, an area where such people do not go.
Occasionally I do encounter a guide with their client. To date they have given me no trouble whatsoever.
Maybe some day that will change. Or maybe it's just because I know so many people in the district. Whatever, for now, I'd rather encounter an outfitter or a guide, then one of those private hunters.

[Walleyes]

The only problem I have with the whole outfitter thing is that every fall we have Resident hunters that go without certain tags do to the draw system because of so called mangement issues yet we will have outfitters guiding non resident aliens in the same zones,, this one has me baffled and pizzed at the same time. There is no way and I say no way that some foreigner should have the rights to an animal over a resident tax paying citizen. If there aren't enough animals for our own then how in the heck is there enough to sell.

The lame exuse that outfitters have to make a living is void because if there were no animals to guide for those people would be making a living at something else. There are just way to many people going without tags and way way to many guide outfitter companies in this little old province..

Last fall a brother and a friend of mine were not drawn for their annual moose hunt in the north west yet when my son and I went by their hunting area there was an outfitter in there with 2 clients from the U.S.,,,, go figure that one.. This is just one example we all know of many many more of the same..

[Smoke]

Albertans, by the Grace of God, have been given the wisdom and generosity to share with the rest of the world some of their wildlife.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by Smoke

Albertans, by the Grace of God, have been given the wisdom and generosity to share with the rest of the world some of their wildlife.

well said. the term "share the wealth"has been uttered by myself many times, but the fact that a non res can buy a tag EVERY year, that i have to wait 5 to 7 years to draw is just plain wrong. money cant buy me love and it shouldnt be able to buy me a tag either. disgraceful......

[Huevos]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. A lot of different attitudes but for the most part I would say Albertans don't have near the issues about guide outfitters that our friends to the west do. Most of this probably comes from those experiences that leave a bad taste in the back of your mouth. I wanted to see what guiding was like so I went last year in BC for a buddy. Took 4 hunters, got 4 moose. The outfitter I worked for was very clear when he told his clients that they would be following the rules. We had a good talk before I went out and he told me it wasn't ever worth breaking the law. He also told me some clients are very pushy and if they ever did anything illegal to cancel the hunt,bring them out and turn them in with all details of what happened. I know this isn't always the case but if the outfitter is good, usually his guides will be. Fortunately for me the clients were great and easy going. I was hunting way back in so we never saw any other hunters but if we would have, im sure they would have been invited in for dinner. I always thought that hunting was more about getting out and enjoying yourself than shooting something. If we are all in a bad mood when we run into each other, whats the point in being out at all.

[3rivers]

Originally Posted by mulecrazy

you have to pay apos in order to file a complaint. what a joke....

There is no charge for filing a complaint with APOS.

[3rivers]

Originally Posted by greylynx

I would like to see the numbers to evaluate the situation.

All the numbers.

Any suggestions for most up to date sources?

What numbers would you like, your answer will dictate the source? Do you want the number of outfitters in the province, or the number of Non resident alien (NRA) hunters, the percentage of NRA hunters compared to resident draw numbers?

There are a lot of factors to consider here and it's hard to keep from muddying the water. The facts are important and there is far too much misinformation being spread on this and other threads, so let's get some facts out there.

[slough shark]

I have mixed feelings on outfitters as I have seen both the good and the bad and know that all people can't be painted with the same brush. If someone has better success because the put the time and the effort into the hunt I say good for them if they work for it that is fine. The only issues that I have had with guides and outfitters is for instance across the river from where I hunt in zone 152 there is an outfitter out of brooks who pays the landowner for exclusive permission. I know it is illegal but when if you report it you will need more proof than just heresay. Other areas that I hunt it is difficult to get permission because the outfitters have already sewn up that permission

[3rivers]

Originally Posted by Duck Buster 1187

A lberta
P rofessional
O ut of prison
S ociety

As long a McMahon is listed as a director for this group they might as well change their name.

Some of the other directors have some colorful stories told about them around the campfire as well.

Again, I ask you to get your facts straight before you spout off on these message boards, it only perpetuates negativity within the hunting community as a whole. Lloyd McMahon is not on the APOS board, and never has been.

I'm sure you're right about "colorful stories... around the campfire", isn't that what hunting campfires are for, seeing who can tell the tallest tale? I would be careful to not believe everything you've heard.

[3rivers]

Originally Posted by slough shark

I have mixed feelings on outfitters as I have seen both the good and the bad and know that all people can't be painted with the same brush. If someone has better success because the put the time and the effort into the hunt I say good for them if they work for it that is fine. The only issues that I have had with guides and outfitters is for instance across the river from where I hunt in zone 152 there is an outfitter out of brooks who pays the landowner for exclusive permission. I know it is illegal but when if you report it you will need more proof than just heresay. Other areas that I hunt it is difficult to get permission because the outfitters have already sewn up that permission

Slough Shark, you hit the nail on the head, most of this is just heresay, if it wasn't, some of these "examples" would have charges laid. I fully agree that there are good and bad outfitters, just like there are good and bad resident hunters that are tying up land access and bribing landowners. The problem is accessible hunting land is declining and the provincial population rising, so I would venture a guess that there will be more and more pressure to access less and less lands.

Don't jump to conclusions that just because an outfitter has good access, he paid for it.

[H380]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

well said. the term "share the wealth"has been uttered by myself many times, but the fact that a non res can buy a tag EVERY year, that i have to wait 5 to 7 years to draw is just plain wrong. money cant buy me love and it shouldnt be able to buy me a tag either. disgraceful......

Well spoken ISB , However , and I may be wrong , but I believe that in areas that are on a draw , the outfitter in the area is only allowed 10% of the resident total tags available .. If res. can get 20 tags , outfitter is allowed 2.

[BigJon]

Originally Posted by Walleyes

The only problem I have with the whole outfitter thing is that every fall we have Resident hunters that go without certain tags do to the draw system because of so called mangement issues yet we will have outfitters guiding non resident aliens in the same zones,, this one has me baffled and pizzed at the same time. There is no way and I say no way that some foreigner should have the rights to an animal over a resident tax paying citizen. If there aren't enough animals for our own then how in the heck is there enough to sell.

The lame exuse that outfitters have to make a living is void because if there were no animals to guide for those people would be making a living at something else. There are just way to many people going without tags and way way to many guide outfitter companies in this little old province..

Last fall a brother and a friend of mine were not drawn for their annual moose hunt in the north west yet when my son and I went by their hunting area there was an outfitter in there with 2 clients from the U.S.,,,, go figure that one.. This is just one example we all know of many many more of the same..

x2

this is my only real beef with the industry...residents of the province looked after first...after that sort out outfitter allocations...

[triple s]

Originally Posted by slough shark

The only issues that I have had with guides and outfitters is for instance across the river from where I hunt in zone 152 there is an outfitter out of brooks who pays the landowner for exclusive permission. I know it is illegal but when if you report it you will need more proof than just heresay. Other areas that I hunt it is difficult to get permission because the outfitters have already sewn up that permission

First off you state on here that the guys paying!Now its something you just heard.So be honest your ASSUMING he paying because they hunt there!

[hihi962]

I am strongly against guides, I have had numerous bad experiences with them... period. when you involve money (especially unclaimed cash income) things go illeagal real fast. Look at the guide Bill Mancura from Andrew, Alta... took police and taxpayers huge resources and 10 years of illegal activity then another 3 years of undercover work to produce 57 charges, everything from exporting horns to shooting at night. and why..?
all because someone figured it was a good idea to make money off wild animals.
we are forgetting the principal here, we are hunting them for their meat. Guides should not make money from the animals.. they do not belong to them.
and what's the deal with their tags...? they get them every year, while citizens have to go on a draw system. boo to that! they sure have a good deal going for them (the guides) a land owner isn't allowed to charge money for access, yet a guide can charge for the hunt. complete b.s.
No matter how nice a guide can lie, most of them have and will bend the rules to get the game for their client.. why? because money is involved, and we all know too well how money corrupts!
I am a farmer, and trust me guys, these so-called honest guides are always offering bribes, for exclusive goose shoots on pea fields, and booze or cash for the big buck living in the back 40... and that's just from what I've seen.
If there is ever a movement to end guiding, I'll support it! heck, I bet they pay less taxes then Hookers do!! (no wonder they love their lifestyle).

[hihi962]

Originally Posted by 3rivers

Slough Shark, you hit the nail on the head, most of this is just heresay, if it wasn't, some of these "examples" would have charges laid.

seriously, it's not "heresay"... have you ever tried to charge a guide with offering a bribe?? I have, it doesn't and will never stick. they are pretty smooth, it's their business, they know the system. Just try and gather evidence to support your claim against them. you would need hard physical support to get a conviction, not just: "yea, he approached me with the offer of a bribe or made a physical movement indicating a bribe" .. haha! yea, the RCMP will just completely disregard it. Look how hard it is for them to get charges to stick... and they are the law, yet alone a land owner.

all we can do is simply deny them access to private lands.