New 20 EXTREME

[duceman]

here's my final word on another totally derailed thread by hugh.
i shoot to have fun, period. be it srbr (although i'm just a faker), silhouette, f-class, rifle rodeo, or 600- 1000yd br ( that probly scared you straight), or bloody gophers.
i find it curious that srbr matches in canada are called a huge success when 12 -15 shooters show up at a sanctioned match. mission had a stellar turnout a couple weeks back with around 25?
yet the 'fun' matches i attend routinely have 20-75 shooters, and often several juniors. i wonder why that is? i have an idea of the response to this question, but i'll let the expert enlighten us.

i suspect your attitude is due largely to the fact that srbr has gone as far as it can ever go; and he with the most spare time , $$, and an 'on' day wins.

it must be terrible to spend all that time and $$ and not have fun anymore.

[gitrdun]

[HW223]

Originally Posted by duceman

here's my final word on another totally derailed thread by hugh.
i shoot to have fun, period. be it srbr (although i'm just a faker), silhouette, f-class, rifle rodeo, or 600- 1000yd br ( that probly scared you straight), or bloody gophers.
i find it curious that srbr matches in canada are called a huge success when 12 -15 shooters show up at a sanctioned match. mission had a stellar turnout a couple weeks back with around 25?
yet the 'fun' matches i attend routinely have 20-75 shooters, and often several juniors. i wonder why that is? i have an idea of the response to this question, but i'll let the expert enlighten us.

i suspect your attitude is due largely to the fact that srbr has gone as far as it can ever go; and he with the most spare time , $$, and an 'on' day wins.

it must be terrible to spend all that time and $$ and not have fun anymore.

Once again you make a comment about sbr with no real basis to back it up ,I don't get involved in the thread until you guys start making ludicrous statements about what works in sbr , then some poor guy shows up at a real shoot with that stuff and gets beat to death , never to return , when if he had stuff that would get him on the playing field he could have done alright , your the idiots that are bad for br with all your br myth's , that's why I take it personal , I'm headed to the super shoot tomorrow , 250 of the best in the world registered so far , wanna come ? I bet not
As I said good luck with your shooting in what ever you choose to do

[purgatory.sv]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

[260 Rem]

Originally Posted by Robmcleod82

Should I mail you my 20 extreme for a test drive?

Thanks for the offer but I have a friend that tinkers with wildcats that keeps me distracted.

[duceman]

Originally Posted by HW223

Once again you make a comment about sbr with no real basis to back it up ,I don't get involved in the thread until you guys start making ludicrous statements about what works in sbr , then some poor guy shows up at a real shoot with that stuff and gets beat to death , never to return , when if he had stuff that would get him on the playing field he could have done alright , your the idiots that are bad for br with all your br myth's , that's why I take it personal , I'm headed to the super shoot tomorrow , 250 of the best in the world registered so far , wanna come ? I bet not
As I said good luck with your shooting in what ever you choose to do

good luck at the super shoot, don't forget the sunscreen!

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Here are some ten shot groups at 300M with a clunky old 30BR.

You really have nothing to be ashamed about with those groups from a clunky old BR. In fact I am happy to see how well you are doing with it. I imagine that it runs a heavy barrel although it shouldn't need one as 30 BR, like the 20 EXTREME does not likely generate a lot of heat. I was really surprised when working up loads for a friends 35 Remington with 225 grain bullets in a pencil barreled Remington Mohawk. Got around 1950 fps and barrel heat was very little.

In fact the Berger 115 bullet does very well at 3050 which seems about max from what I can find. It actually only drifts about 4.97" in a 5 mph wind and only needs 3.9 MOA to 300 yards. This is about 1/2" less than the 40 V-Max at 3700 fps although you need a bit more elevation. The biggest drawback I see to the 30 BR in the gopher patch is the 35+ grains of powder and the 2375 muzzle energy that will develop a lot more recoil than the 40 V_Max. However the 55 Berger load that shows promise, in the ladder I posted on this thread, will likely travel over 3050 (perhaps 3150 faster) not only shoots flatter than the 115 Berger but drifts over an inch less than the 115 Berger. As well muzzle energy is less than 1/2 as will be felt recoil.

While I am happy that you are having fun, with whatever you shoot, I am not happy that you obviously posted here to derail this thread rather than learn about 20 calibers in the field. I did not post to put down your 30 BR but it is apparent that you posted as you believe it is superior because of the heavier bullet and it's popularity in 300 yard BR (may have been a 20 EXTREME in the top 20 if one had been entered). While it may deek out the 32/40 grain bullets in wind drift at 300 yards it falls a bit short of the 55 Berger. I really don't think that the small amount of wind drift is important as wind conditions change but recoil is another matter. In fact I take advantage of the situation and try to get the wind in my back or face when shooting gophers.

As far as me cherry picking targets I guess you don't accept my way of doing things which is fine. However I do have a few 300 yard targets that are less than 1/2 MOA and many 100 yard targets that show potential for the same.
Low node 39BK gopher load at about 3500 fps which seems to stack in every rifle I tried them in. And yes it is a five shot, .27 MOA group with no cherry picking:
[IMG][/IMG]

Top target 12 shots with 4 different loads at 100 yards. Bottom target proved the top load in this target. Shot with 40 V-Max in Remington Brass and yes 5 shots in .193MOA.
[IMG][/IMG]

Ladder with RL 7 showing 21 consecutive shots with a light varmint. Although it showed great potential I did not promote RL7 due to its unstable temperature and lot to lot variations. That does not mean that 20.0-20.3 grains would be unsafe and Greg is working up a load in his rechambered 204R as he had a big can of it.
[IMG][/IMG]

I will post the results with the 55 Berger, in my new 9" twist varmint rifle. I will not likely be able to get past 100 yards unless I get some help so 100 yards may have to do.

[260 Rem]

Ic - I am not a heavy barrel fan so have very few....in 30BR I have several Kreiger #2/3's all the way up to Light Palma which are pretty wimpy when compared with LV's. Do have one LV in 6 Dasher, but again, most are on the skinny side. No doubt the heavy barrels take longer to heat up, but the skinnys will also shoot well when they get warm. Over past few years, I have had several of the heavier barrels turned down and most shoot pretty decent.

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Ic - I am not a heavy barrel fan so have very few....in 30BR I have several Kreiger #2/3's all the way up to Light Palma which are pretty wimpy when compared with LV's. Do have one LV in 6 Dasher, but again, most are on the skinny side. No doubt the heavy barrels take longer to heat up, but the skinnys will also shoot well when they get warm. Over past few years, I have had several of the heavier barrels turned down and most shoot pretty decent.

I agree that light barrels shoot well when they get warm as long as they don't get too hot. In fact the 40 V-Max gopher load I had in my 20 Practical and the 40 V-Max gopher load for my 20 EXTREME shoot bug hole groups under sustained fire on a hot day. I had 15 rounds left for the Practical last fall and planned on selling the rifle. The Range Secretary watched me shoot a 15 shot group and witnessed the group starting at about 1" and shrinking to about 1/3" for the last five shots as the barrel warmed up.

When I talk about LV in My original CZ527 EXTREME I am talking 1" at the shank tapering to 0.63" at the muzzle so about like a #4 contour. I have gone to a #5 contour, which is very similar to the CZ varmint contour, in the rifles pictured. But of course they are a bit heavier than a #5 contour in 30 caliber. I am getting too feeble to handle anything heavier and my wife complains when she has to help me with these.

[260 Rem]

AHH The LV I was thinking about was Kreiger which is probably over 6lbs. Seems as long as the skinny contours are properly stress relieved, they do not wander much with a bit of heat.

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

AHH The LV I was thinking about was Kreiger which is probably over 6lbs. Seems as long as the skinny contours are properly stress relieved, they do not wander much with a bit of heat.

Exactly.

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by lclund1946

I finally got to try my new 20 EXTREME that I had David Henry put together for me.
Specs: CZ 527 Kevlar; Kreiger SS, #5 contour, 25" barrel with 9" Twist.

I Got it near Zero with my 39 BlitzKing gopher load and found it easily shot this load under 1/2". May do better next time out as the weather is getting much more conducive to shooting gopher loads.

I had drawn it up with the 55 Berger seated to the lands and estimated it would up to 22.9 grains of Varget under the bullet seated in Remington Brass.
[IMG][/IMG]

I did a ladder starting at 21.7 grains and going to 22.5 grains of Varget at which point my wife's ear told me that it was near full. I shot the following ladder target yesterday at about 15 Celsius. I did get my confidence up to shoot this off the bipod as I had just shot a 0.11", 4 shot group with my gopher load in my other new 20 EXTREME fitted with a 24" Benchmark barrel with 11"Twist.
[IMG][/IMG]

Looks like I might find a good load with shots #4,5&6 grouping 0.06". I expect velocity to be 3125 to 3150 fps which is right in there with Berger's 204R loads.

I finally got to try the 55 Berger loads that showed promise on my initial pressure /accuracy ladder. I didn't quite get the 1/4 MOA group that I was hoping for as I had a flier on the 22.2 grain load before putting 4 into 0.222". Perhaps next time, when I shoot for accuracy I will get it right. I was a bit low on my initial velocity estimates as this load flew across the Lab Radar at 3223 fps. The temperature was at 22.2 Celsius which likely helped as I tested it initially at 14 Celsius.

[IMG][/IMG]

I shot these three groups just before the 22.2 grain load so was a 20 shot string.
[IMG][/IMG]

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by lclund1946

I finally got to try the 55 Berger loads that showed promise on my initial pressure /accuracy ladder. I didn't quite get the 1/4 MOA group that I was hoping for as I had a flier on the 22.2 grain load before putting 4 into 0.222". Perhaps next time, when I shoot for accuracy I will get it right. I was a bit low on my initial velocity estimates as this load flew across the Lab Radar at 3223 fps. The temperature was at 22.2 Celsius which likely helped as I tested it initially at 14 Celsius.

[IMG][/IMG]

I shot these three groups just before the 22.2 grain load so was a 20 shot string.
[IMG][/IMG]

Got a chance to chronograph my 39 grain BK gopher load in the Kreiger 25", 9" twist barrel. The Lab Radar confirmed that this load shoots 3500 fps, on average, as did my Chrony. This load has shot this good or better in all of the 20 Extreme rifles I have shot it in.
[IMG][/IMG]

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by lclund1946

Got a chance to chronograph my 39 grain BK gopher load in the Kreiger 25", 9" twist barrel. The Lab Radar confirmed that this load shoots 3500 fps, on average, as did my Chrony. This load has shot this good or better in all of the 20 Extreme rifles I have shot it in.
[IMG][/IMG]

Decided to try the 55 Berger Long Range BT Varmint loads with Varget to see if I could better my groups and perhaps get that elusive 1/4" group with 5 shots at 100 yards. Got close and a bit better than last time with final slighter group getting 4 into 0.2" and a flier making it a .39" group. Will have to get a proper front rest or wait until the wind dies right off.

[IMG][/IMG]

I may not be getting the elusive 1/4 " group but these loads are running really consistent as far as ES and SD and would be outstanding on coyotes to 500 yards in the field. When you consider that this is a CZ 527 Light Varmint I believe that I have the ultimate coyote rig with the 55 Berger. Put in the 39 BK load at 3500 fps and I believe that this could be the ultimate rig in the gopher patch as well.

When I started the development of the 20 EXTREME my goal was to run the 39/40 grain bullets to just under 3500 fps which was what was required to match the 22-250 trajectory to 500 yards. Another goal was to do this with a low pressure load running less than 22.2 grains of powder. At that time I suspected that it would run the 55 Berger VLD to 3150-3200 fps which is as good or better than Berger's loads in a 204R. It was a bonus that it also runs the 32 grain bullets from 3850 to over 4000 fps or perhaps even 4200 fps on a hot day. Another goal, perhaps not important to some, was to have all bullets seat to within 30 thousands of the lands with the bearing surface ahead of the neck shoulder junction and still fit in a 223 Saami Standard 2.26" magazine. Finally I wanted to completely eliminate fire forming so that a newly formed case held exactly the same amount of powder as one re-sized which has never been done before, at least not to my knowledge.

The 20 EXTREME design has met and even exceeded my design parameters and I believe it is the ultimate Varmint/Small Predator cartridge and in a CZ 527 Kevlar I feel it is the ultimate combination. I know that there are some who do not share my belief as I have faced much, on line, ridicule over the last6 or 7 years. However that is fine because me and some of those who have become good friends, after I set them up with one, know what we have.

[duceman]

i like what you do and the way that you document everything laverne.
i would however, like to see some some targets shot at longer ranges, starting at 300 and going to at least 500, showing the drops and actual wind drift.
is there a chance that you would be able to make a road trip to my place to play sometime?

[PartTimeHunter]

Originally Posted by lclund1946

Decided to try the 55 Berger Long Range BT Varmint loads with Varget to see if I could better my groups and perhaps get that elusive 1/4" group with 5 shots at 100 yards. Got close and a bit better than last time with final slighter group getting 4 into 0.2" and a flier making it a .39" group. Will have to get a proper front rest or wait until the wind dies right off.

[IMG][/IMG]

I may not be getting the elusive 1/4 " group but these loads are running really consistent as far as ES and SD and would be outstanding on coyotes to 500 yards in the field. When you consider that this is a CZ 527 Light Varmint I believe that I have the ultimate coyote rig with the 55 Berger. Put in the 39 BK load at 3500 fps and I believe that this could be the ultimate rig in the gopher patch as well.

When I started the development of the 20 EXTREME my goal was to run the 39/40 grain bullets to just under 3500 fps which was what was required to match the 22-250 trajectory to 500 yards. Another goal was to do this with a low pressure load running less than 22.2 grains of powder. At that time I suspected that it would run the 55 Berger VLD to 3150-3200 fps which is as good or better than Berger's loads in a 204R. It was a bonus that it also runs the 32 grain bullets from 3850 to over 4000 fps or perhaps even 4200 fps on a hot day. Another goal, perhaps not important to some, was to have all bullets seat to within 30 thousands of the lands with the bearing surface ahead of the neck shoulder junction and still fit in a 223 Saami Standard 2.26" magazine. Finally I wanted to completely eliminate fire forming so that a newly formed case held exactly the same amount of powder as one re-sized which has never been done before, at least not to my knowledge.

The 20 EXTREME design has met and even exceeded my design parameters and I believe it is the ultimate Varmint/Small Predator cartridge and in a CZ 527 Kevlar I feel it is the ultimate combination. I know that there are some who do not share my belief as I have faced much, on line, ridicule over the last6 or 7 years. However that is fine because me and some of those who have become good friends, after I set them up with one, know what we have.

Looks good Laverne. I have done some testing with the 40 grain Bergers with promising results on my Remington 700 though not quite as good as yours. I don't know, for all your complaining about rests and what not you sure seem to put up better groups than me. Sorry I didn't make it down last week had a problem come up - should have called. My friend was getting good results with the 40 gr V-Max and 8208 XBR though weather didn't cooperate and we didn't get it fine tuned.

[PartTimeHunter]

Originally Posted by duceman

i like what you do and the way that you document everything laverne.
i would however, like to see some some targets shot at longer ranges, starting at 300 and going to at least 500, showing the drops and actual wind drift.
is there a chance that you would be able to make a road trip to my place to play sometime?

Lee - if you want to play with one of these I'd be happy to drop one off for you to mess with for a bit. I am going to Airdrie Sunday if that is close to you I'd bring one along. Pm me if interested or call I think you have my number.

[260 Rem]

Iclund ...have you tried a .010 jamb?

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Iclund ...have you tried a .010 jamb?

I have not tried anything but running 0.010" off the lands with this load and this rifle as it is 500 yard varmint load and jambing the lands can be a problem if you load a round and remove it without firing. I have had bullets pull out and drop the powder. However if I were looking for accuracy off the bench I have the option of running a 0.010" jamb and still have 0.141" bearing surface in the neck. If you look at the CFE 223 ladder drawing you will see that I can also run 0.050" off the lands and still be 0.010" ahead of the neck shoulder junction. When I designed this cartridge this 55 Berger bullet was not available and the 40/50 Bergers were not a good fit. When I showed one of my drawings to Walt Berger his only comment was, "Bearing surface ahead of the neck/shoulder junction, that is a must". Now I know that Walt did not design the 55LRBTVarmint for my 20 EXTREME but he couldn't have done a better job if he had.

[IMG][/IMG]

The above ladders show good potential for a low node at around 3100 and a high node at about 3200, with CFE 223, and a lot of room to spare in Winchester brass. We have proven loads with RS Tac and IMR 8208 that run a bit more pressure but shoot nearly the same.

My health does not allow me to do the work necessary to fine tune and test this load , let alone to 500 yards. I will have to leave that to duceman if he would be willing to take my rifle. I will supply the ammunition and perhaps take him up on his offer to come down to his place to play. However I may have to send it down with Kelly or have Lee come to pick it up. If the 20 EXTREME is ever going to get the attention it deserves I am going to have to pass on the torch as I can no longer carry on.

[duceman]

wow! gracious offer guys! i would be happy to give one a test drive.
was kind of hoping to spend some some time with you laverne; i know i would enjoy visiting and learning.

[tchardy1972]

Originally Posted by duceman

wow! gracious offer guys! i would be happy to give one a test drive.
was kind of hoping to spend some some time with you laverne; i know i would enjoy visiting and learning.

Come pick it up whenever you want. You know where to find me. Otherwise, you will see it in the spring when it whoops ya.

[duceman]

haha! we'll see about that this year.......

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by duceman

haha! we'll see about that this year.......

I am working on getting some brass ready too load for you. I only have 10 loaded with 22.1 and 10 with 22.2 grains of Varget @ 0.010" off the lands. The 22.2 load seems to have the lowest SD on cooler days so will load mostly them but will have a few of both just in case we get an Indigenous Summer after this current mess blows over.

If we can't get together with Travis this fall you may have to keep my rifle so you will have a chance next spring. You may even have the advantage as my load is traveling a bit faster than his good load. You may be able to test it on a few coyotes at longer ranges than Travis as well, once you get the come ups figured out. My guess is you will need 3MOA for 300, 5.5MOA for 400 and 8-8.25MOA for 500 yards and this little bullet will still be packing over 500 ft. lbs at that distance. If you have a steady 5mph cross wind you will get about 10 1/2" drift at 500.

Next weekend may be a good time to get together.