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10-16-2020, 10:26 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Red Deer, Alberta
Posts: 2,062
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Who’s in the wrong? (F&W vs. Hunter)
Scenario. Who’s in the wrong?
“Hunter” has never taken the hunters Ed course. She has purchased licences annually back to 2008. Someone on Facebook tells her she’s hunting illegally for not having the course. The hunting regs say only a “first time hunter” needs the course and by their own definition she is not a first time hunter, so wouldn’t require it. Hunter calls the Smoky Lake F&W office to inquire, and Mr. Possum Cop tells her to go in person the next day to discuss in person (red flag). She goes in the next day and Tree Cop gives her a $120 ticket for holding/applying for a licence while ineligible. He takes it a step further and voids her purchased 2020 deer tag and freezes her AlbertaRELM account until she passes a hunters Ed course. Who’s in the wrong?
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10-16-2020, 10:30 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,922
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Hunter is in the wrong
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10-16-2020, 10:45 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Whitecourt
Posts: 676
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That's a greasy move.
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10-16-2020, 10:58 PM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: WMU 303
Posts: 8,537
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Quote:
Licensing requirements for first-time hunters
NOTE: all new first-time hunters who have qualified for obtaining recreational hunting licences by successfully completing the Alberta Conservation and Hunter education course, will be required to provide on their WiN profile, their hunter certificate number that is issued to each course graduate, in order to be eligible to purchase a hunting licence.
A first-time hunter is a hunter who 1) has not previously held a hunting licence in Alberta or elsewhere, or 2) has not prior to April 1, 2010, met Alberta first-time hunter criteria, or 3) has not successfully completed a hunter education course in Alberta or elsewhere.
Non-resident and non-resident alien hunters (12 years of age or older) are exempt from the first-time hunter eligibility requirement if they are accompanied by a Hunter Host or a Designated Guide while hunting in Alberta.
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...
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10-16-2020, 11:02 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Cowtown, agian
Posts: 2,818
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If you have to ask.
Just do the course.
__________________
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.
- Sir Winston Churchill
A body of men holding themselves accountable to nobody ought not to be trusted by anybody.
-Thomas Paine
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10-17-2020, 12:14 AM
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Gone Hunting
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: North of Peace River
Posts: 11,343
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Quote:
or 2) has not prior to April 1, 2010, met Alberta first-time hunter criteria,
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So, if I was not a first time hunter in 2001, I am considered a first time hunter after April 1 2010?
I thought that was a typo so I looked in up in the regs, it does say that.
__________________
Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few.
George Bernard Shaw
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10-17-2020, 04:58 AM
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Dodge City
Posts: 1,283
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I'd be fighting that one, and what a cheap move by the officer. If she had her first license in 2008 I don't see how they can write her a ticket. If her first license was after april 1, 2010 then maybe it would be a different story.
Iirc it used to be very easy to become an eligible hunter in Alberta if you had someone taking care of your WIN application that didn't care, or didn't know. All you had to do was check the box that you were eligible. They brought in the rule where you absolutely had to have proof of the course to deter people from trying to skip the course.
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10-17-2020, 06:17 AM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,267
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Take them to court.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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10-17-2020, 06:48 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 46,125
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Hopefully she has proof that she held licenses in 2008. If she registered any animal prior to 2010, or drew tags prior, they would have a record of that in the system. If not, unless she has copies of previous licenses, it may not be easy to prove.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
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10-17-2020, 06:51 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Lloydminster
Posts: 4,836
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Another victim of face book, if she had a legally issued WIN card and hunting license in her possession and has had legally issued hunting licenses since 2008 why would she give a crap about what some jack wad on face book says, much less head of to F & W office to stir the pot. she just crapped in her own nest, most people would be better off without face book IMHO
__________________
The problem we have today is that the people who work for a living are outnumbered by the people who vote for a living.
We were all born ignorant but one must work very hard to remain that way.
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10-17-2020, 07:02 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 7,696
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Looks like with the information you provided the regs support the hunter on this one
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10-17-2020, 07:12 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: N/W CALGARY
Posts: 614
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waldedw
another victim of face book, if she had a legally issued win card and hunting license in her possession and has had legally issued hunting licenses since 2008 why would she give a crap about what some jack wad on face book says, much less head of to f & w office to stir the pot. She just crapped in her own nest, most people would be better off without face book imho
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this ^^^^^^^
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10-17-2020, 07:55 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: St. Albert
Posts: 1,001
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When I got my WIN card back in 2009 I think you had to check a box on the application that said something like you had taken a hunter safety course or held a hunting license in another province.
I got mine in Ontario so I checked the box, never needed to prove anything. seemed like a pretty big loop hole.
if this Hunter never took the course or had a license from another province, how did she qualify for the first license she bought?
I would think that in 2008, she would be a first time hunter and would need a course.
maybe I am missing something.
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10-17-2020, 08:00 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Look behind you :)
Posts: 27,818
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If she never took the course and was “ineligible” on her first license purchase she continues to be “ineligible” until she takes the course. A false decal statio. By checking the box and then purchasing a license doesn’t magically make you eligible. The onus is on her to prove she took the course or met the eligibility requirements for her first purchase.
There have been cases where people have had every single animal they harvested while ineligible seized by F&W.
Take the damn course!
LC
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10-17-2020, 08:36 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: 204
Posts: 5,615
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It seems like every year this issue rears its head, but only a little bit.
I do wonder why it is never a bigger or smaller issue every year.
Why don't they go ahead and proactively pull everyone's license who doesn't have their hunters ed number on their profile?
Either go all the way, or drop the issue altogether.
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I don't think our taxes should be this high.
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10-17-2020, 08:42 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: My House
Posts: 13,590
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Take the darn course
I met a young guy who thought he was in the clear because he checked the box, and I mean how is F & W ever gonna find out. Long story short. He got checked out after being stopped. They did some digging and he received a $200 fine for every tag he ever purchased from the time he started hunting. Ended up costing him a couple grand. I am sure there are many like that. It is what it is. To any of you reading, and you are in this situation, just take the course. It is not that big a deal.
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10-17-2020, 08:42 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: At the end of the Thirsty Beaver Trail, Pinsky lake, Alberta.
Posts: 25,269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James M
Scenario. Who’s in the wrong?
“Hunter” has never taken the hunters Ed course. She has purchased licences annually back to 2008. Someone on Facebook tells her she’s hunting illegally for not having the course. The hunting regs say only a “first time hunter” needs the course and by their own definition she is not a first time hunter, so wouldn’t require it. Hunter calls the Smoky Lake F&W office to inquire, and Mr. Possum Cop tells her to go in person the next day to discuss in person (red flag). She goes in the next day and Tree Cop gives her a $120 ticket for holding/applying for a licence while ineligible. He takes it a step further and voids her purchased 2020 deer tag and freezes her AlbertaRELM account until she passes a hunters Ed course. Who’s in the wrong?
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Possum cop...tree cop....
Your story has nothing valid other than a ignorant story to stir the pot....if you want the answer call F&W office.....
__________________
Be careful when you follow the masses, sometimes the "M" is silent...
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10-17-2020, 08:44 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 124
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Would be tossed in court in 10min lol.Crown aint gonna waste time on that BS.
Take it to court, see what happens best of luck
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10-17-2020, 08:44 AM
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 16,267
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The rules on this have been far to vague for far to long. Take them to court.
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”
-Billy Molls
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10-17-2020, 08:45 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 46,125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey Cox
It seems like every year this issue rears its head, but only a little bit.
I do wonder why it is never a bigger or smaller issue every year.
Why don't they go ahead and proactively pull everyone's license who doesn't have their hunters ed number on their profile?
Either go all the way, or drop the issue altogether.
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And then again, it would be complete stupidity to think that the course would in any way benefit someone that has held licenses and hunted for 40-50 years. Many of us held licenses long before WIN numbers even existed. It would amount to nothing more than a cash grab.
Quote:
The rules on this have been far to vague for far to long. Take them to court.
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That is likely the only way to get this settled. Let the courts make a decision, and set a precedent.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
Last edited by elkhunter11; 10-17-2020 at 08:52 AM.
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10-17-2020, 08:45 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Red Deer, Alberta
Posts: 2,062
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 58thecat
Possum cop...tree cop....
Your story has nothing valid other than a ignorant story to stir the pot....if you want the answer call F&W office.....
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Did I melt a snowflake? Quit your whining. Don’t like it, read another thread.
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10-17-2020, 08:56 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: At the end of the Thirsty Beaver Trail, Pinsky lake, Alberta.
Posts: 25,269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James M
Did I melt a snowflake? Quit your whining. Don’t like it, read another thread.
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Far from it.....your thread lost its value.....one side hates and the other side likes....and your pot stirring thread is how I view it....not whining just pointing out my perspective is all.....
__________________
Be careful when you follow the masses, sometimes the "M" is silent...
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10-17-2020, 09:03 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: New Beijing, Canada
Posts: 1,469
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Licensing requirements for first-time hunters
NOTE: all new first-time hunters who have qualified for obtaining recreational hunting licences by successfully completing the Alberta Conservation and Hunter education course, will be required to provide on their WiN profile, their hunter certificate number that is issued to each course graduate, in order to be eligible to purchase a hunting licence.
A first-time hunter is a hunter who 1) has not previously held a hunting licence in Alberta or elsewhere, or 2) has not prior to April 1, 2010, met Alberta first-time hunter criteria, or 3) has not successfully completed a hunter education course in Alberta or elsewhere.
Non-resident and non-resident alien hunters (12 years of age or older) are exempt from the first-time hunter eligibility requirement if they are accompanied by a Hunter Host or a Designated Guide while hunting in Alberta.
This is so poorly worded...I am still trying to understand what they mean here.
What actually was the criteria for an Alberta first-time hunter prior to April 1, 2010?
__________________
#defundtheCBC
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10-17-2020, 09:08 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 46,125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMichaud
Licensing requirements for first-time hunters
NOTE: all new first-time hunters who have qualified for obtaining recreational hunting licences by successfully completing the Alberta Conservation and Hunter education course, will be required to provide on their WiN profile, their hunter certificate number that is issued to each course graduate, in order to be eligible to purchase a hunting licence.
A first-time hunter is a hunter who 1) has not previously held a hunting licence in Alberta or elsewhere, or 2) has not prior to April 1, 2010, met Alberta first-time hunter criteria, or 3) has not successfully completed a hunter education course in Alberta or elsewhere.
Non-resident and non-resident alien hunters (12 years of age or older) are exempt from the first-time hunter eligibility requirement if they are accompanied by a Hunter Host or a Designated Guide while hunting in Alberta.
This is so poorly worded...I am still trying to understand what they mean here.
What actually was the criteria for an Alberta first-time hunter prior to April 1, 2010?
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When I obtained my very first WIN card, the fact that I had held hunting licenses in other provinces and states met the criteria. All of the other wording has been added since, and it has only succeeded in confusing many people.
Quote:
Far from it.....your thread lost its value.....one side hates and the other side likes....and your pot stirring thread is how I view it....not whining just pointing out my perspective is all.....
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Actually the fact that so many people are confused by this, makes this a valid thread. And hopefully this goes to court and the result is that the definition is rewritten to make it easier to understand.
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Only accurate guns are interesting.
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10-17-2020, 09:17 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: 204
Posts: 5,615
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I have heard a few stories of people being given a ticket for every license they've held without having their hunters ed course.
If someone who has been hunting for two decades gets their course today, that's still 20 years of licenses without the course. Are they still going to get fined for those? What if they decide its not worth the trouble, and stop hunting?
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I don't think our taxes should be this high.
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10-17-2020, 09:22 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: 204
Posts: 5,615
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CMichaud
Licensing requirements for first-time hunters
NOTE: all new first-time hunters who have qualified for obtaining recreational hunting licences by successfully completing the Alberta Conservation and Hunter education course, will be required to provide on their WiN profile, their hunter certificate number that is issued to each course graduate, in order to be eligible to purchase a hunting licence.
A first-time hunter is a hunter who 1) has not previously held a hunting licence in Alberta or elsewhere, or 2) has not prior to April 1, 2010, met Alberta first-time hunter criteria, or 3) has not successfully completed a hunter education course in Alberta or elsewhere.
Non-resident and non-resident alien hunters (12 years of age or older) are exempt from the first-time hunter eligibility requirement if they are accompanied by a Hunter Host or a Designated Guide while hunting in Alberta.
This is so poorly worded...I am still trying to understand what they mean here.
What actually was the criteria for an Alberta first-time hunter prior to April 1, 2010?
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Actually, that is the clearest I've ever seen this.
If you haven't taken the course, you are considered a first time hunter.
As a first time hunter, you are required to take the course.
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I don't think our taxes should be this high.
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10-17-2020, 09:30 AM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Central Alberta
Posts: 21,399
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck
Take them to court.
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Easy enough to do, nothing to lose and everything to gain.
Grizz
__________________
"Indeed, no human being has yet lived under conditions which, considering the prevailing climates of the past, can be regarded as normal."
John E. Pfeiffer The Emergence of Man
written in 1969
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10-17-2020, 09:31 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 46,125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewey Cox
Actually, that is the clearest I've ever seen this.
If you haven't taken the course, you are considered a first time hunter.
As a first time hunter, you are required to take the course.
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You are conveniently ignoring the words between your two bolded texts, and those words make your interpretation incorrect.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.
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10-17-2020, 09:37 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: 204
Posts: 5,615
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11
You are conveniently ignoring the two ORs, and those two little words make your interpretation incorrect.
When it comes to legal definitions, wording is important.
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Yes, there is an "or" in between each statement, not an "and" or an "and/or"
I would take that to mean that each of those things on their own is enough to satisfy the statement at the beginning of the paragraph.
(I will be the first to admit that my understanding of something could be completely wrong, though. It did happen one other time...)
__________________
I don't think our taxes should be this high.
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10-17-2020, 09:55 AM
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Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 6,531
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I was of the assumption that if you'd purchased tags and hunted prior to the whole WIN card, hunter training course, and "2010" date you were good to go.
Leave it to government to fabricate grey areas. Its especially greasy of F & W to penalize and fine someone trying to do whats right.
Its no different than hammering someone for not having taken a driver's training course back in the day, yes there are some and used to be tons, thats been driving for 70 years.
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