MOAS - Arrow size

[kevin2053]

Does anyone know if the MOAS is still sticking to the arrow size rule?

I am hearing conflicting reports. I checked the rules they have posted and it says 9.7 mm.

Kevin

[Lefty-Canuck]

Yes I am pretty sure they are. Legal size is 9.7mm or .380" maximum.

From the rules:

Arrow Width
All arrows must be 9.7 mm or less in diameter. Shooters using arrows greater than this will have their scores disqualified.

LC

[kevin2053]

Ok... What would be an example of a .380? A fatboy?

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by kevin2053

Ok... What would be an example of a .380? A fatboy?

X-cutter from Goldtip is 9.7mm, Fatboy are 9.3mm

LC

[kevin2053]

Also, under MBO it says "no equipment restrictions" then puts a cap on the arrow size. Sounds like a little bit of a grey area.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by kevin2053

Also, under MBO it says "no equipment restrictions" then puts a cap on the arrow size. Sounds like a little bit of a grey area.

Arrow size limits falls across all classes....yes it is equipment but not the same as having fixed sight pins or optics or single pin which helps define the classes.

LC

[kevin2053]

gotchya

[normanrd]

I still do not understand why they do this. It's not like it's a Fita shoot, and it's not using the same rules as everyone else in Alberta (and Canada) for that matter follow for either national or provincial competitions. Makes no sense to change your set up for 1 tournament in the winter, just to change back again for the indoor nationals and then for the outdoor season.

[arrow dog]

The main reason for the arrow size limit is to cut down on the amount of damage done to the targets. The larger diameter arrows make pretty big holes and if you multiply that by many archers using these arrows, you won't have much hope in keeping the targets viable for the whole shoot. The targets are not cheap and even with the arrow diameter ruling, we have to replace several inserts over the duration of the shoot as it is.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by arrow dog

The main reason for the arrow size limit is to cut down on the amount of damage done to the targets. The larger diameter arrows make pretty big holes and if you multiply that by many archers using these arrows, you won't have much hope in keeping the targets viable for the whole shoot. The targets are not cheap and even with the arrow diameter ruling, we have to replace several inserts over the duration of the shoot as it is.

I wondered why....now I know

I know the larger ones don't seem to penetrate as far in.

LC

[normanrd]

Mmmmmm. Ok. I can't say that we have seen that small diameter shafts preserve the life of the target here at our club, especially over the last 2 indoor and last 2 outdoor shoots I have been a part of. Seems to me that the small shafts that penetrate 2 to 4 times further than the fat shafts do a lot of damage too. I know they can be way tougher to get out and have a propensity to "burn" into the target. But, whatever. It's their party!

[elkoholik]

I am not sure why people complain about arrow size. If anyone is in serious competition you are not allowed anything above 9.3mm as stated in arxhery Canada regs in the 3d equipment regulations. I understand that club events are different regs but realistically we do not use large diameter arrows for hunting.

22.1.7. Arrows of any type may be used provided they comply with the common meaning of the word "arrow" as used in target archery, and do not cause undue damage to target faces or butts.
22.1.7.1. An arrow consists of a shaft with a tip (point), nocks, fletching and, if desired, cresting. The maximum diameter of arrow shafts shall not exceed 9.3mm (arrow wraps shall not be considered as part of this limitation as long they do not extend further than 22cm toward the point of the arrow when measured from the throat - nock hole where the string sits - of the nock to the end of the wrap); the tips (points) for these arrows may have a maximum diameter of 9.4mm.

As always will be a great shoot and hope everyone enjoys themselves.

Cheers, Elk

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by elkoholik

I am not sure why people complain about arrow size. If anyone is in serious competition you are not allowed anything above 9.3mm as stated in arxhery Canada regs in the 3d equipment regulations. I understand that club events are different regs but realistically we do not use large diameter arrows for hunting.

22.1.7. Arrows of any type may be used provided they comply with the common meaning of the word "arrow" as used in target archery, and do not cause undue damage to target faces or butts.
22.1.7.1. An arrow consists of a shaft with a tip (point), nocks, fletching and, if desired, cresting. The maximum diameter of arrow shafts shall not exceed 9.3mm (arrow wraps shall not be considered as part of this limitation as long they do not extend further than 22cm toward the point of the arrow when measured from the throat - nock hole where the string sits - of the nock to the end of the wrap); the tips (points) for these arrows may have a maximum diameter of 9.4mm.

As always will be a great shoot and hope everyone enjoys themselves.

Cheers, Elk

I think those are for FITA/target....arrow diameter for 3d is larger, the rules posted on archery canada site were transposed incorrectly if I recall. They basically copied the field/target rules over to the 3d booklet erroneously....3d has no size limit.

They "illegitimised" the Hunter class this year too....

LC

[elkoholik]

Lefty. That was copied right from their website under 3d. I was not sure of legal diameter for nationals but never shot larger shafts. Just went onto the Nationals site and pulled those right from the regs and there is nothing in there stating anything different for 3d. Here is the link in case I missed something.

http://www.archerycanada.ca/images/s...21_19Dec14.pdf

Cheers, Elk

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by elkoholik

Lefty. That was copied right from their website under 3d. I was not sure of legal diameter for nationals but never shot larger shafts. Just went onto the Nationals site and pulled those right from the regs and there is nothing in there stating anything different for 3d. Here is the link in case I missed something.

http://www.archerycanada.ca/images/s...21_19Dec14.pdf

Cheers, Elk

I know where you got it from ....it's wrong . Talk to MB or DT they asked JH about it. I read the rules when they came out and noticed the arrow diameter had changed from previous years for 3d, I was informed it was not a change but a transcription error on the online copy.

LC

[normanrd]

Not complaining about arrow size at all! Like I said, for a lot of people that are set up with maximum diameter shafts (according to the real rules), it is a pain in the azzs to change their rig to compete at moas. That's all.

[hunter10]

Bought a dozen of the black eagle magnums last year for the shoot to be a bit of a cheater for the shoot.... A bigger shaft then the x-cutters... Guess I'll have to buy some x-cutters then. But man, those magnums sure gave me some extra points !

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by hunter10

Bought a dozen of the black eagle magnums last year for the shoot to be a bit of a cheater for the shoot.... A bigger shaft then the x-cutters... Guess I'll have to buy some x-cutters then. But man, those magnums sure gave me some extra points !

We were keeping track and it seems to be around 5-10 points a round on average.

LC

[hunter10]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

We were keeping track and it seems to be around 5-10 points a round on average.

LC

Sounds about right lefty... Apparently there was a big argument with a couple of people with regards to these arrows lol

[petew]

If they changed the rules and scored on the outer side of the arrow none of this would be an issue, as line cutters would score the lower value, and people could shoot what ever size arrow they wanted.
Then nobody would be looking for loop holes for easy points they realy don't deserve and wanting to shoot broom handles.

[nekred]

Fat arrows create way more drag as they have larger surface arrow then coupled with being light you have a lower sectional density thus they slow down quicker and you have to be careful with fletching size and point weight or you get "parachuting"

Indoors they are good but outdoors in wind... A whole different game.

I have played the fat arrow game and overall have found that they work well on shoots where almost all of the shots are under 40 yards (Like MOAS) but stretched the distance or move outdoors a small skinny arrow does better....

For giggles I have kept track for years.... on my line cutter score and how many times a fat arrow would have got me a higher score and then compared with my x count between the arrows.... On a 20 animal round when I shoot skinny arrows indoors I usually end up with 2-3 more x's than with fat arrows and average 1 occasion where a fat arrow would have got me more points. So this would be an 8/5 or a 10/8 or 11/10 when I compare these it really is a wash indoors although many people will disagree...

However for indoor target archery it is a different game.... I have shot 2315's and 2712's and with those at 20 yards indoors (one arrow weighs 540 the other 700 grains) with the heavy point weight the 2315's give me more x's and less line cutters which is good for FITA compound where you only score the baby x and the 2712 is illegal... but with vegas rules or new bowhunter class in Canada where you shoot the big 10... fat arrows are king... BUT they have to be tuned... the fatter they get the more finicky they get....

In the end if you are not a dedicated 3D shooter... use your regular hunting arrows and have some fun!....

I have seen gurs that are shooting awesome hunting arrows that are .001 straightness matched perfectly for their bow decide to go after points and buy some cheap fat arrows that are .006 straightness without re-tuning and believe the arrow fatness is gaining them more points... because they don't shoot the others for 3D....

Because I shoot Outdoor 3D predominantly and might get 1 indoor shoot in a year I just use my outdoor setup and enjoy the shoot.

One other major disadvantage of fat arrows is that they have thinner walls so are much more delicate and less consistent. (a small inconsistency in a thin wall has more effect than the same inconsistency in a thicker wall)

For example I have often found that in a dozen fat arrows I get 6 that are very consistent and the others make great tomato stakes....

Now on last parting comment.... Do you honestly think shoots are won by fat arrows or better archers?....

Are shoots won by the close shots or the far shots? Which arrow is better for the farther shots because it is not losing speed as rapidly?

[nekred]

I have heard of another scoring system where the line scores 1/2 way between the zones.... so you have 12 for center ring 11 for line, 10 for next ring then 9 for line, 8 for next ring then 7 for line and 5 for next area....

This way fat arrows and skinny arrows have equal handi-cap.... fat arrows have more chance of catching line from either side (up or down) and skinny arrows have equal chance of missing line (up or down)

[arrow dog]

Originally Posted by petew

If they changed the rules and scored on the outer side of the arrow none of this would be an issue, as line cutters would score the lower value, and people could shoot what ever size arrow they wanted.
Then nobody would be looking for loop holes for easy points they realy don't deserve and wanting to shoot broom handles.

What a wonderful idea!! It'll cut down on the whining (somewhat) and maybe we won't have to work as hard at pulliing those telephone poles out of the targets. First thing you hear at first target at most shoots is"put some lube on those @##@ things!"

[Lefty-Canuck]

I find the outside finish on the arrow has as much to do with ease of pulling as the diameter...skinny fast shiney arrow being the toughest to pull if shot on a clean target. WCTbowtec has some of the skinniest hardest arrows to pull

LC

[32-40win]

I sure do not miss some of the antics we had to do, to pull arrows from 3d targets. I remember when Gold Tips first appeared, they were pigs to pull from any brand target, really rough finish. And then the appearance of the Mackenzie HD targets, had more than a few go rounds with ACC's, Carbon Express and a few others, and fast bows and close targets, under 25yds.
Broke a new Coyote in half, trying to get an ACC out of it in RD one year, three of us pulling on it. It was lubed, too. Seen a lot of different lubes used, in some cases, none of them help.
Not sure there is a "good" solution to that issue, bows are faster now, that doesn't help. Not sure what they have done with the foam in the targets these days. Need density to last, but, it makes arrows a pig to pull. Everyone want cheap targets, but, dense or specialised foam costs more money.

[arrow dog]

That's why we shoot 3D! For all the fun aspects like pulling arrows! Searching thru the bush for arrows! Breaking the nocks of other guy's arrows! Cussing the target that just robbed us of an 11! I'm just really thankful that I have the opportunity to be able to do all this stuff.

[HoytAlpha35]

Originally Posted by nekred

Fat arrows create way more drag as they have larger surface arrow then coupled with being light you have a lower sectional density thus they slow down quicker and you have to be careful with fletching size and point weight or you get "parachuting"

Indoors they are good but outdoors in wind... A whole different game.

I have played the fat arrow game and overall have found that they work well on shoots where almost all of the shots are under 40 yards (Like MOAS) but stretched the distance or move outdoors a small skinny arrow does better....

For giggles I have kept track for years.... on my line cutter score and how many times a fat arrow would have got me a higher score and then compared with my x count between the arrows.... On a 20 animal round when I shoot skinny arrows indoors I usually end up with 2-3 more x's than with fat arrows and average 1 occasion where a fat arrow would have got me more points. So this would be an 8/5 or a 10/8 or 11/10 when I compare these it really is a wash indoors although many people will disagree...

However for indoor target archery it is a different game.... I have shot 2315's and 2712's and with those at 20 yards indoors (one arrow weighs 540 the other 700 grains) with the heavy point weight the 2315's give me more x's and less line cutters which is good for FITA compound where you only score the baby x and the 2712 is illegal... but with vegas rules or new bowhunter class in Canada where you shoot the big 10... fat arrows are king... BUT they have to be tuned... the fatter they get the more finicky they get....

In the end if you are not a dedicated 3D shooter... use your regular hunting arrows and have some fun!....

I have seen gurs that are shooting awesome hunting arrows that are .001 straightness matched perfectly for their bow decide to go after points and buy some cheap fat arrows that are .006 straightness without re-tuning and believe the arrow fatness is gaining them more points... because they don't shoot the others for 3D....

Because I shoot Outdoor 3D predominantly and might get 1 indoor shoot in a year I just use my outdoor setup and enjoy the shoot.

One other major disadvantage of fat arrows is that they have thinner walls so are much more delicate and less consistent. (a small inconsistency in a thin wall has more effect than the same inconsistency in a thicker wall)

For example I have often found that in a dozen fat arrows I get 6 that are very consistent and the others make great tomato stakes....

Now on last parting comment.... Do you honestly think shoots are won by fat arrows or better archers?....

Are shoots won by the close shots or the far shots? Which arrow is better for the farther shots because it is not losing speed as rapidly?

Playing the fat arrow game I found works best following Goldtip's Tim Gillingham. He has an excellent article on his theories. I have spent a fair bit of time experimenting with their arrows. The stiffer spines in the target line provides a very consistent arrow. My last dozen of Ultra 22's in .005 straightness were much better than that and spine consistency was excellent also, close to as good as my .001's. But that opens another can of worms as the ultra stiff arrows show the weakness and inconsistencies in form plus a little more effort tuning than a better spined arrow

Spent some time shooting out to 80 yards with my 22's this summer. "Theoretically" they shouldn't fly good as there 25.5" long, Big Max hunter vanes, 100 grain tips, and large diameter. I was quite surprised by how well they shot. Even in the wind they weren't to affected. Wind seems to effect my bow hold and pin float before I blame it on the arrow.

Fat vs Skinny and 3D scoring
For the average joe fat arrows aren't going to help them win. IMO best upgrade for those wanting to step up there game is standard diameter ultralight arrow with 100-120 grain point and blazer sized fletching.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Here is a 90 yard group using Goldtip x-cutters when I was just having some fun with target practice. The low right arrow I "peeked" at on release. POA is center dot on the bag.

These arrows fly quite well out of my bow. If they fly well and are legal for the competition you are in, why not? A buddy and I would asterisk targets where the larger arrows helps us and they on average bought us 5-10 point a round sometimes more sometimes less.



LC

[L.O.S.T.Arrow]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Here is a 90 yard group using Goldtip x-cutters when I was just having some fun with target practice. The low right arrow I "peeked" at on release. POA is center dot on the bag.

These arrows fly quite well out of my bow. If they fly well and are legal for the competition you are in, why not? A buddy and I would asterisk targets where the larger arrows helps us and they on average bought us 5-10 point a round sometimes more sometimes less.



LC

Tsk tsk ...That is just unexceptable...you shot the BullDogg between the eyes..

lol

Neil