A new contender for my new sheep rifle

So, my comments are really about the obvious decline in the quality of production firearms, especially big game rifles since about 1960. If, you look at a Savage 99, a Mod. 70 or Husqvarna, Brno or FN made in 1957 and one made now, it is only too obvious. Rifles USED to be made to a proud standard, now, most of them are made to a "price point" and I am sorry to see this.

I think that's a pretty blanket statement Kute......I think a lot of it depends on the needs of the shooter. I know that some of the new rifles suit certain styles of hunting far better than their predecessors. I don't buy into "it's older so it's better" arguement. There been no good movies since the 50s...no good music since the 70s and so on. Things and times change and just because it doesn't suit you doesn't mean that it doesn't suit me. There are some fine rifles made today that shoot sub one-inch groups out of the box and will take all the abuse I'll throw at them and likely the three other people that shoot the rifle after I'm gone. Just because it has some modern materials in it doesn't preclude it from being a fine firearm. I enjoy my vintage rifles as well but I didn't take my Pre '64 sheep hunting today!

Originally Posted by ABDUKNUT

That Browning in the pic is one of the ugliest rifles I've seen yet this year...

While not 'THE' ugliest, they sure give TC a fair run...

Never bought a rifle based on looks. Actually never spend any time even looking at my rifles. They are usually either locked in the safe, stuffed in a scabbard or attached to the back of a pack. Performance and its suitability to my style of hunting are the only real requirements. Some people are attracted to the shiny I guess but I care more what the rifle is capable of....but then that's just me. To me, the most beautiful rifle is one that has some nicks and scrapes from experience and each one tells a tale. Now that's a beautiful rifle!

[lazy ike]

I'm not 60 and i can't honestly lay claim to any of the things KMB does but I do know a few men who are all he claims to be and a bag of potatoe chips. Not one of them is as gigantic a pompous ass as he appears to be. Indeed all of them actually exhibit the kind of world weary knowledge that one might expect of truly acomplished outdoorsmen. None of them, spend anytime tooting their own horn, as I suspect; confident honest men have no need of others approval or admiration.

On topic again:

Any idea when these rigs will be up here so i can't buy one for real?

[Kutenay]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I think that's a pretty blanket statement Kute......I think a lot of it depends on the needs of the shooter. I know that some of the new rifles suit certain styles of hunting far better than their predecessors. I don't buy into "it's older so it's better" arguement. There been no good movies since the 50s...no good music since the 70s and so on. Things and times change and just because it doesn't suit you doesn't mean that it doesn't suit me. There are some fine rifles made today that shoot sub one-inch groups out of the box and will take all the abuse I'll throw at them and likely the three other people that shoot the rifle after I'm gone. Just because it has some modern materials in it doesn't preclude it from being a fine firearm. I enjoy my vintage rifles as well but I didn't take my Pre '64 sheep hunting today!

Again, I have NOT said that older is better in general terms, concerning outdoor gear or anything else. In fact, my opinion is that MOST gear today is far superior to that we had when I started hiking, shooting, fishing and so forth in the late '50s,, but, modern production rifles are not.

I also have not said that YOU or anyone else should/must use what I prefer or not use what you prefer; my comments are concerning the "marketing" hype that has become so prevalent in the firearms industry in place of what I consider acceptable quality control.

Examples are the Dakota line of rather pricey rifles, which almost ALL come to the eager purchasers needing adjustments, mine did. The considerable number of Sako Safari Grades, another costly piece, that were sold with the recoil abutment put in backwards as a friend of mine found the hard way and the proplems with scope mounting holes being drilled off-center in Mod. 70s, quarter-ribs being askew in Ruger No. 1s and many other examples.

I "managed" a gunstore for a time and have quite a number of friends in the business and have seen these situations firsthand, so, I am not very enthusiastic about most guns made today or in recent decades. I also think that this would/could be improved IF more shooters/hunters would speak out about it, on forums such as this and directly to manufacturers.

One other point here, I have no idea who you are or if you are/are not a "gunwriter", my earlier post on this was intended to refer to those "professional" gunwriters who go on industry-sponsored hunting trips and then laud that company's products in articles in various magazines. I should have been clearer on this as it is a commonplace situation today and I find such non-critical and rather biased writng rather phoney. My comments were not meant as a "jab" at you, just as a comment on much gunwriting we see now.

As to P-64s, my buddy loves to buy classic rifles, strip, re-barrel and re-stock them, his latest is a .338WM on what was a .264 Westerner and with s Shilen sts. bbl, Micky stock, WeaverGS/Leupy QRW mts, Leupy 4X and Recknagel irons, it is 8 lbs. 2 oz. This is, IMHO, a VERY suitable rifle for ANY alpine hunting and not many factory rifles will weigh under this, especially in .338WM.

You CAN do this for not much more money than many of today's off-the-shelf rifles, IF, you watch for bargains, he put together a P-64-.375 H&H for me for a price FAR less than a Winny Classic, it has a sts Classic bbl., Micky stock and all the other goodies and cost LESS by a fair amount than
something like a Sako 75 or 85 OR a Mod. 70 Classic, holds five shots, weighs just over 9 lbs. and shoots so well I am just amazed.

So, my comments simply reflect what I have seen, are intended as an opinion and if someone prefers the new Browning, fine, I don't care what rifle a person chooses. I WILL say, though, that it would not shock me if Browning changes THIS newest model fairly soon and I think that they COULD re-do the old FN Safari rifle with today's technology at a reasonable sticker price.

That's it for me, each to his own.

As to P-64s, my buddy loves to buy classic rifles, strip, re-barrel and re-stock them, his latest is a .338WM on what was a .264 Westerner and with s Shilen sts. bbl, Micky stock, WeaverGS/Leupy QRW mts, Leupy 4X and Recknagel irons, it is 8 lbs. 2 oz. This is, IMHO, a VERY suitable rifle for ANY alpine hunting and not many factory rifles will weigh under this, especially in .338WM.

Kute, I can buy a Tikka that's going to come in a pound less for likely half the money as your buddy spent and enjoy the same performance. I'm not knocking what he did if that's his gig....we all get enjoyment from different things but personally all I want is a great shooting, lighweight rifle that won't let me down in the crunch. I could care less when it was made or what it looks like. I'm pretty utilitarian about my rifles and am not impressed with how shiny they are or what heritage they carry with them or what gunmaker (insert name here ) tinkered with them. You tell me why a T3 won't do everything I need it to and we can talk.

[Kutenay]

I liked the older Tikkas, but, do not care for T3s, however, I certainly understand that some do like them. As to ...performance..., that is a subjective term in this context and arguing about it here is a waste of time.

The chap I refer to has won the high power rifle trophy at our gun club five times in a row, works in mining exploration and has a fair amount of bush time, world-wide. His rifles are used, as mine were, for working purposes and thus are VERY utilitarian.

I think that we need to see IF the Tikka T3s perform as well and last as long as P-64s have, my guess is that they won't. But, while I would find a .338WM weighing less than 8lbs., too light, you may be more recoil resistent than I am and can shoot such a rifle well. Again, each to his own, my mountain rifles weigh from 7.25 lbs. for .270s/.280s, built on Brno 21H, HVA and P-64 actions to 8.25 lbs.-.338WM, built on P-64 and FN-CRF actions. These suit me in BC conditions and have done for many moons.

I can't tell you why a T3 won't do everything you want it to, because I don't know you or what conditions you hunt in. So, it's kinda a "Mexican standoff" as without knowledge of what you do, my opinions would be based on guesses and I have no time for that.


I have broken scopes when hunting and when working in the wilderness, a Tikka T3 has no iron sights and thus is useless in this situation.for example.

I personally have no interest in a .338 for a mountain rifle but calibre really is a moot point here anyhow. If anything the .338 might weight a bit less because of the bigger hole in the barrel. As for what I want this rifle for, I hunt sheep and other mountain game as seriously as anyone I know and do numerous short and extended backpack trips each year. I have no interest in having iron sights on the rifle and in well over 20 years of hunting the mountains in the most sever conditions you could imagine, I've never had a need for them. You are basing all of your opinion on the modern rifles I've suggested based on nothing more than speculation and personal bias and you have the nerve to call down modern gun writers. Get some real world experience with some of these modern guns and then tell me what you think. Im not buying this gun to win a high power trophy with. I'm buying it to hunt sheep with. I appreciate the fact that you have a lot of real word experience with older guns and such but for you to call down modern rifles that you have no experience with is irresponsible. "There not old so they won't last" is a pretty lame arguement.

So now that you know what I do and want this rifle for...tell me again why the T3 or possibly this new Browning....won't do everything I need it to?

[Kutenay]

I think that this is going where I am not interested in following, my experience with contemporary guns is considerable and I have over 40 years of mountain experience, much of it alone with backpack and rifle, end of story.

Not sure I questioned your experience Kute...in fact I think I defered to it. How much experience do you have with the T3 or the new Browning X-Bolt?

And btw, I never brought up my experience to try and compete with you or down play yours...it was because you asked!

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Kutenay

Whatever, for a person who posts that he doesn't care about my opinion, you certainly take a lot of trouble to make assinine comments about it.

GOD! I'm so misunderstood! An ass braying outside my office window gets my attention the same way you do. It isn't that I care what HE is SAYING, it is just that HE continues TO BRAY.

[Dick284]

Now not being a mountain hunter of any sort, nor being much of an aficinado of one make of rifle over the next, I'll add my 2 bits.
The X-Bolt looks neat TJ. Not for me since it aint left handed.
But if it floats your boat have at it. And I'm sure you will give us updates as they become available, and I hope to here all the details.
Now Kuteney:
What is with your insessant need to brag about all you have or all you've done? I'm sure your a remarkable individual and have plenty to share, but quite frankly you come accross as a know it all, blow hard, who is so rooted in the past, you cant write a single prose without tooting your own horn or looking like a grumpy old man. Now that's what it looks like from my point of view, and I'm sure many others as well. I'm quite confidant in my saying I'm sure you do not wish this sort of stigma attached to your personality, and therefore I in the most respectful and friendly manner want to point these things out to you.
Do I care you have fond love of pre 64's or other now discontinued firearms, not the least, they are long discontinued for a reason, they cost to much to produce, and all recent attempts to re manufacture the same model has met with limited degrees of success, not to mention a lot of failures. All one has to do is look at the Montana Rifleman action and the various debochals surrounding it's production and performance.
The T3 and Sako 75's and 85's and Savages, Rugers and Host's of other arms are selling circles around the old CRF's and newer ones for a particular reason, that being not that many people need or care for a CRF rifle. Nor do they wish to invest extra dollars in things, they do not really want or need.
Example:
Rifles are sold plain barrel cause that's what the market conditions are dictating, Ruger saw that over 30 years ago, and only make limited models with iron sights, and it costs more too.
Now if that is contrary to your style then it's contrary to your style, that's all. Forcefully pushing your opinion and belittling anything other, makes you look like a bitter old man only concerned with himself and his few meager possesions.

The X-Bolt looks neat TJ. Not for me since it aint left handed.
But if it floats your boat have at it. And I'm sure you will give us updates as they become available, and I hope to here all the details.

Not sure if it floats my boat yet or not. The closest I've been to one is the press release but I'd sure like to get my hands on one before I form any opinion, good or bad. Unlike what has been alluded to by another poster, some of us "professional gun writers" do base our opinions based on real world experience. I know a lot of serious shooters that do as well. I guess that's what seperated the wheat from the chaff. Hope to get a little range time with one in February and then go from there.

[VerySavage]

It has been quite a while since I last owned a Browning, not since 1980 in fact, I try not to prejudice my opinion based on my dislike for the brand & actually hope you find the fit & function to be good. In my experiences at the range shooting a variety of my friends Browning rifles I find them to be loose & clunky when compared to the smooth action of my Ruger M77MKII or my Marlin XLR. I hope it lives up to the sales brocure retoric of the first post, but won't be overly surprized if it fails to live up to the top billing Browning heaps on it in thier sales literature.
--Ken

[ABwhitetail]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I'd sure like to get my hands on one before I form any opinion, good or bad. Unlike what has been alluded to by another poster, some of us "professional gun writers" do base our opinions based on real world experience. .

I thought all your writings and pictures that go along with them were fake

I am one whom is definitely not to proud to listen to the advice of others....less face it....come February i will not be at the range with you shooting any of the new guns you will have the pleasure of trying....that is why I am interested in what you have to say...

Will I buy into it just because you say it....not necessarily, but I do respect what you and everyone else says for that matter...it allows me to form that much better of an opinion on my own....

Kutenay, I am not sure why guys get so defensive on these forums....I like to hear what you have to say....even if I disagree....but man, you got to respect the fact if people disagree....and just because a person disagrees does not mean they are insulting your experience or knowledge....Point is I don't think anyone was insulting you, and by taking it as an insult you are misunderstanding the point of a forum such as this.....

Anyway, back on track....I do not consider my self to be loyal to a gun manufacturer either...I own a browning, ruger, winchester....and I am very interested in this X-bolt...can't wait to hear your findings TJ.....the trigger not being able to be easily adjusted is one of my biggest complaints with my A-bolt....this new version sounds very interesting....

[209x50]

Originally Posted by ABwhitetail

I thought all your writings and pictures that go along with them were fake...

Not all of them are fake, only the ones where he casts aspersions on my abilities as as a marksman!

Not even sure Photoshop could make you look like a marksman!!!! A knife sharpener...now that's another matter. If you get a box full of super dull knives in the mail...well you know what to do...

[Double Shovel]

I have to agree with Kut on the old guns.I believe that the gun market is so saturated with guns that anytime a company comes out with a new gun they emphasize on something so little that the consumers believe and go for it.Classic example is the WSM.Now if that new inovation never came out ,do you think the hunting world would be hurting without it?If you have a running white-tail going full out and your flinging lead at it in a hurry,do you really think that 3/4" to an 1" on the bolt length makes a difference when you chamber between shots?How many of you can actually give credit to a shorter bolt length for getting you an animal and that alone?I have a Remington 700 that is over twenty years old,been on horses ,boats and airplanes and I have a Remington 700 CDL that is just over a year old.The twenty some ought year old gun is more crisp in the action,tighter action and still looks as good as the new one.I have a .303 MK1 no4 that has to be built in the twenties and the action is tighter on it than the new CDL.Now I have been to gunshows and picked up new guns just to see how tight the bolt is in them when it is closed and over half of them wiggle when closed and there are some top of the line guns(Browning,Remington,Weatherby) that I looked at too not just entry level guns.I have probably five guns over the twenty year mark and all have tight bolts and actions.Don't get me wrong I still like the look of some of them but I do really think the older guns were built better.Look at the gun in whole and what else can be changed on it to make it any better.The only thing I can think of is synthetic stocks and stainless barrels other than that the parts inside I don't believe are better quality.I have a hard time getting hyped up about new guns but there is the odd one that does.

And do you think the older calibres do a better job of killing???? I think this thread was about guns anyhow...not calibres so I really fail to see your point. And what's with all this talk of tight bolts anyhow...is that like kicking the tires on a car to check for quality or seeing how tightly the door closes. One of the most indestructible and accurate guns that Remington ever made...the 788 had a bolt that rattled and shook like a a wagon going down a cobblestone road. I'm pretty sure no one dissed the old guns or calibres on this thread...I know I never did but there are certainly lots of new ones that do the job as well or quite likely better in some cases. New is not always better nor is old always better.....and I think most of the serious shooters and hunters on here realize that or maybe none of us should ever buy a new gun or a new calibre by your reasoning. I seem to remember you being a huge proponent of a shiny new Remington muzzleloader a while back...wouldn't a Hawken have served you just as well?

[Double Shovel]

Hey sheep,
Alright,I was not trying to step on any toes of anybodys' here.I am not cutting down the new ones all together either.I have found lots of old ones that have bad bolts too and actions too.My MAIN point was that I don't think there is as good of craftsmenship and components on the new ones as the older ones,THAT"S IT.Vehicles aren't built like they once were either and the new tires on the vehicles are crap too because it all comes down to building it for cheap.My new Ford has really brought that to light,but lets stick to the guns.
You do remember me,I wish I could have found you in the crowd last year at Wainwright and I would have let you touch my Remington,LOL just kidding.In my last post I didn't cut out the new guns altogether,I would still buy a new one but really believe that finding a true gem is harder than it use to be.Our debate over TC vs Remington was a fun one,but you have to remember that the debate was comparing those apples to apples and the subject was about accuracy and my questioning of the T/C barrel.Each to their own,I have my own opinion on guns and the quality in them,you do too,but please remember that because I agreed with Kut on one thing from his post doesn't mean that I was attacking you.I too look forward to hearing about the new Browning and I hope it does well for them but I believe it will not take off like the WSM innovation has or be the next new thing.Oh ya,I also had a Hawken and it was crap,LOL.
"New is not always better nor is old always better"---This is exactly my point as well TJ...I just favour the older a little more....I agree with you,please don't take being mad at Kut out on me

Not mad at Kute at all...really have no emotion about it.....I just get tired of the older is better arguement when there is nothing to back it up. I won't even get into the vehichle thing with you either but I know I like my 2004 Ford a heck of a lot better than my 1974 but each to their own. Not sure why you brought up the TC vs Remington debate either....I was just saying that if all old guns are better then you'd have been better served by a Hawken as would I. The people's opinions that I respect most are those with a mind open enough to accept and embrace the new if their experience demonstrates that it is indeed better. The ones I respect the least are those that are not open to any change and sit in the caves resting on their laurels, afraid of new or those that are just attracted to the shiny.

Just because it's older, heavier, tighter or has patena doesn't make it better as just because it's new and shiny doesn't make it better. Use it...abuse it and then give me an opinion...otherwise I'm not really interested. I'm always open to hearing informed opinions whether I agree or not as I might learn something but there are definitely people on here that have opinions without the experience or information to back them up. I have a word for people like that but my Mom might read this post and she definitely doesn't need to hear that kind of language coming out of her little boy!

I just shared a press release here and said it piqued my interest. After I've shot the gun I'll tell you what I think unlike a few others here that already have an opinion of it without ever knowing it existed till they read this post.

[Double Shovel]

Sheep,
I am always open to something new as well.I take a little more cautious approach to probably.I feel what I said was info that has been taken from my own experiences and feel that I have some vaild points.I may not be exactly right and that is why it is called an opinion.As I said in the last post,I will listen to the pros and cons of the new rifle and try and keep an open mind about it but I was just forming an opinion based on MY previous experience,that's it.I do own new guns like you said like my new shiny remington ML and a new CDL and I do regret buying the new CDL but don't regret buying the new ML,so that shows I am not totally opposed to new guns.I can't wait to see what this gun will do.

[harv3589]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I just get tired of the older is better arguement when there is nothing to back it up. I won't even get into the vehichle thing with you either but I know I like my 2004 Ford a heck of a lot better than my 1974 but each to their own.

I think the '74 is much better....