Jasper National Park hunting agreement

[outofbounds]

Originally Posted by Mountain Guy

Ungulate populations have been dropping in Jasper for many years.. Parks Canada aerial surveys have shown elk populations dropping significantly in last several surveys.. I don't have the numbers but elk numbers are down and dropping.
They don't have an explaination , but I do... Way too many predators hard at work here.
''game management'' should not even be mentioned as part of the justification for this hunt..

As a trapper of multiple registered traplines, I am fully aware of the significant impact predation has on all ungulate populations. I average between 5-15 wolves yearly taken off more than one trapline and see the significant impact it has on the packs ability to take down larger ungulates when reducing pack numbers. Typically at least 1 moose per week, when speaking of moose taken per pack of wolves
Unfortunately, neighboring traplines do not target wolves at all for reasons of their own.
Now factor in the predation by both black and grizzly bears and the big cats in some cases. Moose and elk calf mortality is typically highest in the spring shortly after calving periods.

Inside the Parks, outside of these last two hunts there hasn't been any hunting outside of poaching. So the population decline in Jasper certainly is not from First Nation harvest at least within the park boundaries.

The prior reference to game management was for other parks outside of Alberta utilizing licensed hunters to manage populations to limit over browsing and protection of the eco system of certain parks under Parks Canada authority. The province allocated tags and Parks Canada provided permits for the hunt within the National Park to achieve their goals.
Being that the predator to ungulate, in this case moose ratio is in favor of the moose due to geographic locations and wolf predation is near if not non-existent. So again, are hunters ok with other National Parks permitting hunting and possession of firearms in other jurisdictions for goals of betterment for a National Park?

No management of predators is a large piece that is also pushed by certain crowds and groups, but has lasting effects. Some go to the park to see ungulates like elk and sheep, some go to see the predators such as wolves and bears all in their natural habitat. Do they understand the balance, including the SAR? We all know the current G bear stance by government fueled by the lobby groups here in AB and in states such as MT where efforts to delist the G bear have been ongoing.

Also being a producer, I can recognize that with the downturn of the coyote markets there will be less targeting of coyote across the prairies by hunters and trappers, it will not be long to see the impact of this as well as a numbers increase, my phone has already started to ring with consistency for requests of predator control from neighboring producers.

The hunts in Jasper like it or not will happen, justification, likely will not come from this group nor Parks Canada.

[TheIceTitan]

Originally Posted by Mountain Guy

Ungulate populations have been dropping in Jasper for many years.. Parks Canada aerial surveys have shown elk populations dropping significantly in last several surveys.. I don't have the numbers but elk numbers are down and dropping.
They don't have an explaination , but I do... Way too many predators hard at work here.
''game management'' should not even be mentioned as part of the justification for this hunt..

Only 318 elk in all of Jasper National Park as of 2018:

https://twitter.com/JasperNP/status/958762226306994183

Ridiculous.

[huntinstuff]

Originally Posted by Stinky Buffalo

You know, the participants and the regulators know that the general public really doesn't care all that much about this.

They care even less that the hunting fraternity is upset about this.

Exactly

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by outofbounds

As a trapper of multiple registered traplines, I am fully aware of the significant impact predation has on all ungulate populations. I average between 5-15 wolves yearly taken off more than one trapline and see the significant impact it has on the packs ability to take down larger ungulates when reducing pack numbers. Typically at least 1 moose per week, when speaking of moose taken per pack of wolves
Unfortunately, neighboring traplines do not target wolves at all for reasons of their own.
Now factor in the predation by both black and grizzly bears and the big cats in some cases. Moose and elk calf mortality is typically highest in the spring shortly after calving periods.

Inside the Parks, outside of these last two hunts there hasn't been any hunting outside of poaching. So the population decline in Jasper certainly is not from First Nation harvest at least within the park boundaries.

The prior reference to game management was for other parks outside of Alberta utilizing licensed hunters to manage populations to limit over browsing and protection of the eco system of certain parks under Parks Canada authority. The province allocated tags and Parks Canada provided permits for the hunt within the National Park to achieve their goals.
Being that the predator to ungulate, in this case moose ratio is in favor of the moose due to geographic locations and wolf predation is near if not non-existent. So again, are hunters ok with other National Parks permitting hunting and possession of firearms in other jurisdictions for goals of betterment for a National Park?

No management of predators is a large piece that is also pushed by certain crowds and groups, but has lasting effects. Some go to the park to see ungulates like elk and sheep, some go to see the predators such as wolves and bears all in their natural habitat. Do they understand the balance, including the SAR? We all know the current G bear stance by government fueled by the lobby groups here in AB and in states such as MT where efforts to delist the G bear have been ongoing.

Also being a producer, I can recognize that with the downturn of the coyote markets there will be less targeting of coyote across the prairies by hunters and trappers, it will not be long to see the impact of this as well as a numbers increase, my phone has already started to ring with consistency for requests of predator control from neighboring producers.

The hunts in Jasper like it or not will happen, justification, likely will not come from this group nor Parks Canada.

My point was that it had been mentioned by both the FN chief, and some spokesperson from PC, that this Jasper hunt also had ''game management'' benefits...
If this is the case, then they should be taking grizzlies , wolves and coyotes...and maybe a cougar or 2.
I don't know...maybe they didn't ''traditionally'' take these animals...

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by TheIceTitan

Only 318 elk in all of Jasper National Park as of 2018:

https://twitter.com/JasperNP/status/958762226306994183

Ridiculous.

They really don't have a clue... I believe it was mentioned earlier .
Parks Canada = Government of Canada.

[edmsmith]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

If you have to be FN to participate in the hunt, then the hunt is racist.

Originally Posted by CBintheNorth

Thank you.
I thought it was pretty evident to everyone, but I guess not.
Racism can only be committed by a certain race, apparently...
Oh, the irony.

The hunt is racist. I don't disagree but that's not the point I've made.

Does this now give you cart Blanche to make demands of Indians to stick to cross bows and horse back like they did in the 1800s? That gives you the right to say they have to forgo modern technology? You think you can make ridiculous demands of indigenous groups because of a festering sore spot like one person mentioned?

Using your own words if your only targeting indigenous groups with ridiculous demands then your demands themself are racist.

Anything to excuse ones actions eh?

Here's to hoping we see lots of amazing animals taken from their hunt. Can't wait to see everyone's reactions.

[CBintheNorth]

Originally Posted by edmsmith

The hunt is racist. I don't disagree but that's not the point I've made.

Does this now give you cart Blanche to make demands of Indians to stick to cross bows and horse back like they did in the 1800s? That gives you the right to say they have to forgo modern technology? You think you can make ridiculous demands of indigenous groups because of a festering sore spot like one person mentioned?

Using your own words if your only targeting indigenous groups with ridiculous demands then your demands themself are racist.

Anything to excuse ones actions eh?

Here's to hoping we see lots of amazing animals taken from their hunt. Can't wait to see everyone's reactions.

You're a tough cookie, but I'll try it one more time.
The only reason anyone is saying they should hunt with primitive weapons, is because the two tribes keep calling this a "traditional hunt".
Therefore, everyone is saying that they should hunt with traditional weapons, in a traditional manner, if this is indeed a "traditional hunt".
Don't claim it to be traditional, and then pull out the long range carbon fiber rifles with long range scopes, four-wheel drive vehicles, and all of the other modern tools used in modern day hunts.
There is nothing traditional about this, other than the racism that has been alive and well in this country for a long time.

This will be my last post with you, as I felt it needed to be said, but can tell by your last paragraph exactly the type reaction you are looking for.
Not cool.

[DiabeticKripple]

Originally Posted by CBintheNorth

You're a tough cookie, but I'll try it one more time.
The only reason anyone is saying they should hunt with primitive weapons, is because the two tribes keep calling this a "traditional hunt".
Therefore, everyone is saying that they should hunt with traditional weapons, in a traditional manner, if this is indeed a "traditional hunt".
Don't claim it to be traditional, and then pull out the long range carbon fiber rifles with long range scopes, four-wheel drive vehicles, and all of the other modern tools used in modern day hunts.
There is nothing traditional about this, other than the racism that has been alive and well in this country for a long time.

This will be my last post with you, as I felt it needed to be said, but can tell by your last paragraph exactly the type reaction you are looking for.
Not cool.

Well said.

A traditional hunt should be with traditional weapons to replicate the success rates.

Using rifles on tame animals is basically shooting fish in a barrel.

Ain’t nothing racist about it.

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by edmsmith

The hunt is racist. I don't disagree but that's not the point I've made.

Does this now give you cart Blanche to make demands of Indians to stick to cross bows and horse back like they did in the 1800s? That gives you the right to say they have to forgo modern technology? You think you can make ridiculous demands of indigenous groups because of a festering sore spot like one person mentioned?

Using your own words if your only targeting indigenous groups with ridiculous demands then your demands themself are racist.

Anything to excuse ones actions eh?

Here's to hoping we see lots of amazing animals taken from their hunt. Can't wait to see everyone's reactions.

Well the pic's are leaking out.. seen a pic of one and apparently the other elk was around 380''
Think they got till Nov 13th so should be able to get one bigger...

As far as demanding they do it traditionally , for me its a case of when does ''traditional'' kick in?
Does traditional start with the introduction of horses? The flint lock rifle? Lever action rifle? Internal combustion driven vehicles? Maybe the 6.5 creedmoor ?
Perhaps traditional would be doing it how they did it as far back as they can recollect.. sharp rocks and living in caves...
They would get a lot more respect from a lot of people....

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by Mountain Guy

Well the pic's are leaking out.. seen a pic of one and apparently the other elk was around 380''
Think they got till Nov 13th so should be able to get one bigger...

.

So it's not a meat hunt for the ceremonial feast? Better supply good steak knives. Maybe a tenderizing mallet

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

So it's not a meat hunt for the ceremonial feast? Better supply good steak knives. Maybe a tenderizing mallet

Grind em up and throw in some tenderizer should help for the chew factor..

[270person]

Originally Posted by Mountain Guy

Well the pic's are leaking out.. seen a pic of one and apparently the other elk was around 380''

...

Jasper Park Lodge front doors in the background?

[calgarychef]

A traditional hunt would most likely look like trails cut off with logs etc. to create funnels throughs the bush. Lots of snares set up and a whole bunch of people chasing elk through that bush. This idea of hunting with the bows that were able to be produced in this part of the country is highly over dramatized in my opinion.
There just wasn’t enough good wood to make bows. Look at the bows that were used and they were all less than 40” long, that’s not a decent bow. That’s a bow for extremely close use, a killing blow so to speak. So we’re back to “how did they do it?” Snares and cliffs

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by 270person

Jasper Park Lodge front doors in the background?

Looked like on Celestine Lk rd.. Can see last years burn in the background. Pretty much the entire area their hunting has been burned out last summer.

[outofbounds]

"The first thing we did [when parks were created] was remove Indigenous people from the landscape. We totally took that thinking out of our space."

"We're just doing what we were stopped from doing," said Wesley. "Now we're back."

A couple of quotes taken from one of the news releases on the JNP, Parks Canada agreement, 1 from Parks Canada and 1 from a participating nation leader.

Creation of Jasper Forest Reserve
When Jasper Park Forest Reserve was created in 1907, Indigenous Peoples were forcibly removed and excluded from this part of their Traditional Territories. The land was used for European settler recreation and economic prosperity.

The two nations involved in the hunt, under agreement with Parks Canada are once again hunting territory and lands that they had hunted prior to establishment of the Park in 1907.
Where both nations, amongst other groups, were forcibly removed.

In the time period of Park establishment, firearms had been used including lever action repeaters, this does not say other methods or choice of weapons or implements were not used in hunts or trapping activities of the time period of Park establishment or the years leading into. Firearms had been available via trade since the early 1700's at forts and along the trade routes.

It has been voiced that all firearms use and hunting should not be allowed in JNP, yet other National Parks, under Parks Canada authority are or have issued permits to hunt within National Parks in parallel efforts with provincial licensing authorities for game, specifically ungulate management. Both by licensed and non-licensed hunters.

The matter remains a topic of contention as to some, it is viewed as an opportunity for a select group to posess firearms and hunt in National Parks.
Also the concern of the First Nations who have been quoted to be aiming to take six deer, four elk and two sheep from within the park for a community feast, being a front for a Trophy opportunity on what was identified as a tame population.

Did the allocations of licenses and Parks permits to hunt in National Parks in other jurisdictions not offer the same limited access and possible Trophy opportunity for those National Park ungulate populations?

Parks Canada has identified that they will now include Indigenous groups in future management matters of the Park, what this looks like is yet to be finalized.

What the future will hold is unknown, with regard to future National Park limited permits to posses firearms, access to hunt, or lack of, or who is at the table for management input including allocations.

There is no provision in the treaties to limit any Indigenous groups to hunt, trap or fish with methods and means available pre-European contact or limit to what was available prior to trade in the identified region of JNP or what may have been obtained outside of the noted region. Nor do they identify or limit what is considered as traditional means.

Specific to access to hunt post treaties, identify hunting on unoccupied Crown lands and on any other lands to which the said Indians may have a right of access.
Which in this case was granted by Parks Canada for an identified area within JNP. Privately held nor crown leaseland is applicable here.

As the park is under the authority of Parks Canada, has there been any input from the Province outside of groups like the sheep foundation, one way or the other?

[Lunkerhunter]

Where were you able to find these pics? Would you mind posting them or a link?

It’s like a train wreck, I just can’t look the other way…


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[burbotman]

I get sick when I hear this called a hunt. Call it what it is a cull. There is a reason the area is closed and it is not because of safety. Public disgust at the shooting of tame animals would be huge

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by outofbounds

"The first thing we did [when parks were created] was remove Indigenous people from the landscape. We totally took that thinking out of our space."

"We're just doing what we were stopped from doing," said Wesley. "Now we're back."

A couple of quotes taken from one of the news releases on the JNP, Parks Canada agreement, 1 from Parks Canada and 1 from a participating nation leader.

Creation of Jasper Forest Reserve
When Jasper Park Forest Reserve was created in 1907, Indigenous Peoples were forcibly removed and excluded from this part of their Traditional Territories. The land was used for European settler recreation and economic prosperity.

The two nations involved in the hunt, under agreement with Parks Canada are once again hunting territory and lands that they had hunted prior to establishment of the Park in 1907.
Where both nations, amongst other groups, were forcibly removed.

In the time period of Park establishment, firearms had been used including lever action repeaters, this does not say other methods or choice of weapons or implements were not used in hunts or trapping activities of the time period of Park establishment or the years leading into. Firearms had been available via trade since the early 1700's at forts and along the trade routes.

It has been voiced that all firearms use and hunting should not be allowed in JNP, yet other National Parks, under Parks Canada authority are or have issued permits to hunt within National Parks in parallel efforts with provincial licensing authorities for game, specifically ungulate management. Both by licensed and non-licensed hunters.

The matter remains a topic of contention as to some, it is viewed as an opportunity for a select group to posess firearms and hunt in National Parks.
Also the concern of the First Nations who have been quoted to be aiming to take six deer, four elk and two sheep from within the park for a community feast, being a front for a Trophy opportunity on what was identified as a tame population.

Did the allocations of licenses and Parks permits to hunt in National Parks in other jurisdictions not offer the same limited access and possible Trophy opportunity for those National Park ungulate populations?

Parks Canada has identified that they will now include Indigenous groups in future management matters of the Park, what this looks like is yet to be finalized.

What the future will hold is unknown, with regard to future National Park limited permits to posses firearms, access to hunt, or lack of, or who is at the table for management input including allocations.

There is no provision in the treaties to limit any Indigenous groups to hunt, trap or fish with methods and means available pre-European contact or limit to what was available prior to trade in the identified region of JNP or what may have been obtained outside of the noted region. Nor do they identify or limit what is considered as traditional means.

Specific to access to hunt post treaties, identify hunting on unoccupied Crown lands and on any other lands to which the said Indians may have a right of access.
Which in this case was granted by Parks Canada for an identified area within JNP. Privately held nor crown leaseland is applicable here.

As the park is under the authority of Parks Canada, has there been any input from the Province outside of groups like the sheep foundation, one way or the other?

Hmmmm..... this seems to be an admission by Parks Canada and others that these People were conquered.

Lots of issues arise when talking Treaty rights and admissions of Nations being conquered.

[TAK Precision]

There will never be an equal playing field when it comes the hunting. It's the sad truth. But a traditional hunt should be done with the traditional weapons of the time. If no one came to north America they'd probably still be hunting with pointy sticks.

[Smoky buck]

Well one thing is for sure this hunt doesn’t help improve relations between FN and non FN in Alberta or Canada

[Buckhead]

I am surprised after all this time and the many posts that no one has made the connection.

The last hunt in Jasper National Park was in 2017.

In 2017 and 2018 the routing and construction of a certain oil pipeline was being initiated through these areas and territories.

Now, here we are late in 2023 with a certain oil pipeline nearing completion and about to become active.

Another hunt is taking place in Jasper Park.

Once again, our fine Liberal government representatives have been negotiating on our behalf. And the story continues...........

[tbrown]

Every time I hear about the ‘’hunt’’, this is all I can think about.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[leo]

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canad...d560a514&ei=13

Another First Nation wants to affirm their hunting rights in Jasper. This is getting ridiculous. Honestly! If the game animals in Federal or Provincial Parks need to be thinned out, I would much rather see tags put for auction with proceeds going to that provinces game management and conservation.

[Smoky buck]

Screw it open up Jasper to all FN year round no quota hunting

Might as well let it buck and add banff to it.

[outofbounds]

From the provided link:

Last weekend, Parks Canada held a ceremony in the park to help celebrate the re-establishment of an ancient treaty between the Simpcw and Stoney First Nations under which the two nations agreed to share the resources of what has become Jasper.

A Parks spokesman said at the time the ceremony was part of a larger move to reopen parks land to the First Nations that originally used its resources and restore their influence over parks management. The deal was marked with a hunt, the first in Jasper since 2017, which was also conducted under an agreement with Parks Canada.

Fehr said the ceremony didn't grant any new rights to any First Nation.

The band's oral history says the Mounties were brought in to remove them.
"At one point they had their rifles confiscated," said MacPhee. "That was an attempt to starve them out."

"This wasn't something that Parks Canada initiated," he said. "The Simpcw and the Stoneys came to us."

He said more talks with Indigenous groups will be held over all activities in the park, including limited hunts.

"The AWN are more than welcome to participate," he said.

Some points by the AWN expressing why they should be included, and reference of possesion and use of firearms during the period of Park establishment.

Parks Canada certainly has a full plate ahead of them as introduced precedent seting agreements for all Parks under their authority.

[Mountain Guy]

Another group..What a surprise. Can't believe it took almost 3 weeks..Gov can't say no now...or for the next group and the next group after that.
She's open season in the Parks folks.. bring er on.

[CBintheNorth]

I can't wait for the inevitable in-fighting between bands. You just know it's coming.

Let er buck now. The sooner we give it all back, the sooner I can go to the band council and start demanding my 'Reconciliation'.
I want a stat holiday in my honour as well, please.
And not some half-assed holiday that only Gov't workers get. I want a full-on stat.

[elkhunter11]

Just let everyone hunt the national parks, no draws, unlimited tags , when the trophy animals are gone, nobody will care to hunt there, and it can go back to being a national park again.

[huntinstuff]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Just let everyone hunt the national parks, no draws, unlimited tags , when the trophy animals are gone, nobody will care to hunt there, and it can go back to being a national park again.

Id shoot the first elk i saw...male or female...right out the window....pow

[I’d rather be outdoors]

I think you guys have this all wrong. In fact, we should be advocating for more hunts like this, but in National Parks ALL around the country. Ones near Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal come to mind… strange that it hasn’t happened yet. Fair is fair after all.