First castle, now Bighorn

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Taco

Why my dear fellow, one would have thought that a person smart enough to decipher the nuances of another person's post and thereby deduce which political party that person wholeheartedly supports would also be clever and perceptive enough to figure out what the letters D and F are a acronym for.

I don't know what it means so how about spelling it out?
Cat

[catnthehat]

Any more of this stuff and you guys will have to find something else to argue about
Cat

[Lornce]

.

[thetruth]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Any more of this stuff and you guys will have to find something else to argue about
Cat

I'll drop it then Cat but all I said, twice, was to ignore the guy. Not sure how that offended you....

[LKILR]

Originally Posted by Walleyedude

A one line response that sums up narrow minded thinking at its finest.

I hope I never see the day when your right to hunt and fish in the Castle, let alone on Alberta's public lands, is taken from you.

If and when that happens, I hope you remember this post and the side you chose VERY clearly.

I know I will. So will your children...

Hunting and fishing is a privilege Not a right. Only First Nations have that "right" When privileges are abused then privileges are taken away.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by thetruth

I'll drop it then Cat but all I said, twice, was to ignore the guy. Not sure how that offended you....

Nothing to do with me
Cat

[Lornce]

What happened to Taco's pictures of offroad damage? Was it deleted to support headwater damage? Or not to upset ATV riders. Just curious.

[Walleyedude]

Originally Posted by LKILR

Hunting and fishing is a privilege Not a right. Only First Nations have that "right" When privileges are abused then privileges are taken away.

Under the letter of the law, you're right. I'm sure that's exactly how Notley, Phillips, and the rest of the big brother, holier than thou's view the situation and justify their actions as well.

However, that's not how I view the world, and I would hope that most outdoorsmen would view their access to public lands and their ability to hunt, fish, and use those lands as an intrinsic right.

Furthermore, what have all the responsible OHV users done to have their "privileges" taken away?

What abuses do you think they'll use when they expand or re-designate the Castle area and take away EVERYONE's "privilege" to hunt and fish in the Castle area? Or will it simply be as unilateral as the OHV ban?

Privileges are "granted" by the government, but the privilege of governing is granted by the people...

[Taco]

Originally Posted by LKILR

Hunting and fishing is a privilege Not a right. Only First Nations have that "right" When privileges are abused then privileges are taken away.

Well said!

Like i said on a disappeared illustrated post, I have been hunting, fishing, 4by4ing and random camping Alberta's west country for 50 yrs or more and I have watched a single group of users cause more negative environmental impact in a 10 yr span than any of the other users in the previous the 40.

Yeah I'm pro park, maybe we may have something left to show our grandshildren's chiildren

[Albertadiver]

Originally Posted by Taco

Well said!

Like i said on a disappeared illustrated post, I have been hunting, fishing, 4by4ing and random camping Alberta's west country for 50 yrs or more and I have watched a single group of users cause more negative environmental impact in a 10 yr span than any of the other users in the previous the 40.

Yeah I'm pro park, maybe we may have something left to show our grandshildren's chiildren

There are laws already in place to manage that. How about we have them enforced for a change? Take all of the funding for these 'studies' 'the science' 'consultation' etc. and just empower enforcement to do their job?

This park is just a method for Y2Y to achieve their goals. Unfortunately they are smart people. If they get their way, your grandkids can watch the wilderness from a roadside kiosk because hiking will no longer be allowed because there is a chance some hiker could kick a pebble into a stream or bother an endangered grizzly.

[sjd]

Originally Posted by Albertadiver

Y2Y will NOT stop until their agenda is fulfilled.

They are working hard in the Bow valley as well. Quietly getting the Three Sisters campground closed is part of it. Using the excuse of the flood and to reduce 'human wildlife interaction'.

Y2Y wants ALL access to the eastern slopes closed. Hiking, biking, horses, quads, etc. They want a completely sealed off area for the bunny rabbits and bears.

ATV is just the easy low hanging fruit to get their foot in the door. Sadly, it's already happened behind closed doors and the 'public consultation' is just a show.

I did a bit of research on the Y2Y and found the following on their website. Also read a quote from the Y2Y guy in the Rocky paper saying that hunting Bighorns is part of Alberta's heritage and that they support hunting in a Bighorn Wildland Park.

Since when did Alberta Outdoorsmen become an extension of Snow and Mud.com? Anyone who thinks that the Castle isn't in need of some serious rehabilitation has either never been there, or is blind to the impacts.

Y2Y Hunting, Fishing and Trapping Policy

The Yellowstone to Yukon Conservation Initiative (Y2Y) is committed to the ecological integrity of, and long term health of habitats and wildlife populations within, the Yellowstone to Yukon region. Within this context, Y2Y recognizes that hunting, trapping, and fishing:

 are indigenous rights;
 are part of the cultural heritage and economy of the Yellowstone to Yukon region;
 are appropriate activities within the Yellowstone to Yukon region, provided that they are conducted in an ethical manner that includes fair chase principles; and
 may be appropriate means to help maintain or manage fish and wildlife population health.

In addition, Y2Y acknowledges the legitimacy of wildlife sanctuaries set aside from hunting, fishing or trapping where wildlife populations can recover from the impacts of the developed landscape, to protect wildlife genetics from the impacts of selection from human-caused mortality, and which act as source populations for hunting, trapping, and fishing opportunities
outside their boundaries.

[Newview01]

Originally Posted by Taco

Well said!

Like i said on a disappeared illustrated post, I have been hunting, fishing, 4by4ing and random camping Alberta's west country for 50 yrs or more and I have watched a single group of users cause more negative environmental impact in a 10 yr span than any of the other users in the previous the 40.

Yeah I'm pro park, maybe we may have something left to show our grandshildren's chiildren

You are simply overreacting and in so doing cutting into the privileges of the majority of back country OHV users. The fact is by supporting the park, you are supporting the move towards a total ban of human activity in the area. I don't understand how you choose to ignore the statements and beliefs of Y2Y among others.

I understand you may believe there is a problem, but in reality there is very little to complain about. The photo you posted showed some trails and mudholes. How does that destroy the environment? Maybe 1 or 2% of the area in question has OHV 'damage'. 1 or 2% does not translate into a destroyed environment.

Edit - I would like to take my grandchildren quadding there. Why do your rights supersede mine?

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by sjd

I did a bit of research on the Y2Y and found the following on their website. Also read a quote from the Y2Y guy in the Rocky paper saying that hunting Bighorns is part of Alberta's heritage and that they support hunting in a Bighorn Wildland Park.

Since when did Alberta Outdoorsmen become an extension of Snow and Mud.com? Anyone who thinks that the Castle isn't in need of some serious rehabilitation has either never been there, or is blind to the impacts.

Y2Y Hunting, Fishing and Trapping Policy

The Yellowstone to Yukon Conservation Initiative (Y2Y) is committed to the ecological integrity of, and long term health of habitats and wildlife populations within, the Yellowstone to Yukon region. Within this context, Y2Y recognizes that hunting, trapping, and fishing:

 are indigenous rights;
 are part of the cultural heritage and economy of the Yellowstone to Yukon region;
 are appropriate activities within the Yellowstone to Yukon region, provided that they are conducted in an ethical manner that includes fair chase principles; and
 may be appropriate means to help maintain or manage fish and wildlife population health.

In addition, Y2Y acknowledges the legitimacy of wildlife sanctuaries set aside from hunting, fishing or trapping where wildlife populations can recover from the impacts of the developed landscape, to protect wildlife genetics from the impacts of selection from human-caused mortality, and which act as source populations for hunting, trapping, and fishing opportunities
outside their boundaries.

Hunting for who?

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by Taco

Well said!

Like i said on a disappeared illustrated post, I have been hunting, fishing, 4by4ing and random camping Alberta's west country for 50 yrs or more and I have watched a single group of users cause more negative environmental impact in a 10 yr span than any of the other users in the previous the 40.

Yeah I'm pro park, maybe we may have something left to show our grandshildren's chiildren

Why not support a designated trail system with enforcement so all users can enjoy the park? Maybe even a designated mud hole?

[Lornce]

Excellent Post Taco, I have also been a Hunter and Fisherman in the back country for an equal number of years and have seen the the severe damage. I often help F/G with Electro surveys and have seen the recorded decline in not only fish numbers but destruction of spawning areas. Our headwaters especially are under heavy impact. Our game also has seen declines, often from habatat loss and wildlife disruption.

Perhaps the saddest situations I have personally witnessed have been areas that have been planted in willow cuttings for habitat recovery be regularly flattened despite signs in place, lots of hard work up in smoke. Bridges built for ATV use to spare streambeds and borders put in place to funnel riders to bridges removed so riders could again dig up streambeds and banks.

I am now of the view self-policing does not and will not work. Area closures are the only answer at this point.

perhaps it has been posted here before but this is a nice overview of ATV use. by Don Meridith

[Albertadiver]

Originally Posted by sjd

I did a bit of research on the Y2Y and found the following on their website. Also read a quote from the Y2Y guy in the Rocky paper saying that hunting Bighorns is part of Alberta's heritage and that they support hunting in a Bighorn Wildland Park.

Since when did Alberta Outdoorsmen become an extension of Snow and Mud.com? Anyone who thinks that the Castle isn't in need of some serious rehabilitation has either never been there, or is blind to the impacts.

Y2Y Hunting, Fishing and Trapping Policy

The Yellowstone to Yukon Conservation Initiative (Y2Y) is committed to the ecological integrity of, and long term health of habitats and wildlife populations within, the Yellowstone to Yukon region. Within this context, Y2Y recognizes that hunting, trapping, and fishing:

 are indigenous rights;
 are part of the cultural heritage and economy of the Yellowstone to Yukon region;
 are appropriate activities within the Yellowstone to Yukon region, provided that they are conducted in an ethical manner that includes fair chase principles; and
 may be appropriate means to help maintain or manage fish and wildlife population health.

In addition, Y2Y acknowledges the legitimacy of wildlife sanctuaries set aside from hunting, fishing or trapping where wildlife populations can recover from the impacts of the developed landscape, to protect wildlife genetics from the impacts of selection from human-caused mortality, and which act as source populations for hunting, trapping, and fishing opportunities
outside their boundaries.

Yes I've seen that as well. It's a bit of smoke and mirrors. A long while back (few years ago) I believe it was Walking Buffalo who had dug up some stuff on Y2Y that showed their overall intent is to stop all human activity in these areas completely. They know that this wouldn't be well received so they have things like what you've quoted in some of their literature. I first caught wind of Y2Y when they were putting their attention on Bob Creek Wildland.

I'll try to find those references.

[thetruth]

Originally Posted by Walleyedude

Under the letter of the law, you're right. I'm sure that's exactly how Notley, Phillips, and the rest of the big brother, holier than thou's view the situation and justify their actions as well.

However, that's not how I view the world, and I would hope that most outdoorsmen would view their access to public lands and their ability to hunt, fish, and use those lands as an intrinsic right.

Furthermore, what have all the responsible OHV users done to have their "privileges" taken away?

What abuses do you think they'll use when they expand or re-designate the Castle area and take away EVERYONE's "privilege" to hunt and fish in the Castle area? Or will it simply be as unilateral as the OHV ban?

Privileges are "granted" by the government, but the privilege of governing is granted by the people...

Well said!! Roughly 790 days to go....

I don't have a direct dog in this fight as I don't use an OHV, nor do I recreate in the area of concern. I do, however, recognize clear government overreach and meddling when I see it, interference that will set a dangerous precedent across the board for all, typical of politicians of this stripe.

As an outsider, it looks to me if there actually was a sincere desire to address the issue with as little disruption to the various user groups as possible, the answer may well be to simply put resources into enforcing existing laws and legislation, rather than creating more and in the process singling out one stakeholder group for "punishment", based on the actions of a few.

Perhaps an over simplification, but one thing is for sure, the NDP likes to pick winners and losers and tend to act first, based on their ideological perspectives, and deal with the fall out later, which makes them very, very dangerous.

[Newview01]

Originally Posted by Lornce

Excellent Post Taco, I have also been a Hunter and Fisherman in the back country for an equal number of years and have seen the the severe damage. I often help F/G with Electro surveys and have seen the recorded decline in not only fish numbers but destruction of spawning areas. Our headwaters especially are under heavy impact. Our game also has seen declines, often from habatat loss.

Perhaps the saddest situations I have witnessed have been areas that have been planted in willow cuttings for habitat recovery be regularly flattened despite signs in place. Bridges built for ATV use to spare streambeds and borders put in place to funnel riders to bridges removed so riders could again dig up streambeds and banks.

I am now of the view self-policing does not and will not work. Area closures are the only answer at this point.

perhaps it has been posted here before but this is a nice overview of ATV use. by Don Meridith

Knee jerk reaction. Of course self-policing doesn't work. Game declines? Really? Thank predators. Or subsistence hunters.

Severe damage? Walk 100 yards from a trail, you may not even know there is a trail there.

Its fairly obvious that when you are on the trail, then yes, you see that there is a quad trail where a game once was. Or a mud pit where a natural spring once was. But these represent a fraction of the landscape.

If you are not willing stand up for OHV rights, you can be assured that the OHV groups will not stand up for your hunting rights when they come for those.

[Newview01]

Originally Posted by Albertadiver

Yes I've seen that as well. It's a bit of smoke and mirrors. A long while back (few years ago) I believe it was Walking Buffalo who had dug up some stuff on Y2Y that showed their overall intent is to stop all human activity in these areas completely. They know that this wouldn't be well received so they have things like what you've quoted in some of their literature. I first caught wind of Y2Y when they were putting their attention on Bob Creek Wildland.

I'll try to find those references.

Bob Creek - an example of proper OHV management, beautiful area. What happened? Right, now no motorized vehicles. For NO reason.

[Albertadiver]

Originally Posted by Newview01

Bob Creek - an example of proper OHV management, beautiful area. What happened? Right, now no motorized vehicles. For NO reason.

OHV's are allowed for some people, like those inspecting for noxious weeds, CO's, etc. I was napping in the tall grass hunting one day and nearly got ran over by one of those inspectors in a side by side.

Note to self, don't sleep in tall grass in full camo.

The OHV closure that was suddenly put up just before hunting season with extremely poor notification was cowardly in my view. If it wasn't for a few threads there was little to no ability to hear about this online. The 'science' behind the closure is certainly debatable. I don't use the quad trails because I hunt on foot, but I sure support it's responsible use in Bob's creek.

[Newview01]

Originally Posted by Albertadiver

OHV's are allowed for some people, like those inspecting for noxious weeds, CO's, etc. I was napping in the tall grass hunting one day and nearly got ran over by one of those inspectors in a side by side.

Note to self, don't sleep in tall grass in full camo.

Interesting they were in a sxs considering the size and weight restrictions for the plebs.

[Unregistered user]

Y2Y was originally Yellowstone - Yukon, Now it's Yucatan - Yukon, don't believe for one minute they want any human encroachment ever as their long term goal.

[Taco]

And Cat wonders why I use acronyms and censor workarounds

Conspiracy and ulterior motives... *JHCOAC*

[Walleyedude]

Originally Posted by Taco

And Cat wonders why I use acronyms and censor workarounds

I don't, it's obvious to me. It saves you from having to actually address the points being made...

[ehrgeiz]

Looking closer at Y2Y is very concerning indeed. I share the greater concern that OHV use in the Castle area is only the first step. Limitation or a complete ban of all OHV, hunting and fishing would most certainly be within in their long term vision along the entire eastern slopes of Alberta.

I'm generally in favor of reasonable conservation efforts, but this is more like an eviction notice. My ability to participate in nature through hunting and fishing is extremely important to me. Y2Y seems to be believe that only quiet observation is acceptable.

Reviewing their membership list and board of directors it's clear that Y2Y is well organized and has significant technical expertise within their ranks. I suspect these folks will strongly have the ear of the NDP Government and will look to fulfill as much of their agenda as is feasible within this term.

From a strategy perspective I think the best plan to counter-attack their efforts is to escalate the matter enough that opposition parties campaign on a platform to see the legislation struck. At that point consultation and planning can begin again on a new plan that strikes a better balance.

To be clear, I'm not for unrestricted OHV use in these areas by any means, but that user group is just the low hanging fruit of a much more disconcerting goal.

[claystone]

a few years back I was talking to FW at nordegg and was told that eventualy it would all be like a park. I didn't give it much thought then but the next year road corridors were up, so it sure looks like !

[Taco]

Originally Posted by Walleyedude

I don't, it's obvious to me. It saves you from having to actually address the points being made...

From my point of view it looks more like resistance to change than any real desire to protect headwater country. Go ahead, protest all you feel a need to. I had my say as well, I've written the Premier and the Minister of the Environment expressing my support of the Castle Park proposal as it currently stands.

Sometimes even an NDP Government gets it right.

[thetruth]

Originally Posted by ehrgeiz

Looking closer at Y2Y is very concerning indeed. I share the greater concern that OHV use in the Castle area is only the first step. Limitation or a complete ban of all OHV, hunting and fishing would most certainly be within in their long term vision along the entire eastern slopes of Alberta.

I'm generally in favor of reasonable conservation efforts, but this is more like an eviction notice. My ability to participate in nature through hunting and fishing is extremely important to me. Y2Y seems to be believe that only quiet observation is acceptable.

Reviewing their membership list and board of directors it's clear that Y2Y is well organized and has significant technical expertise within their ranks. I suspect these folks will strongly have the ear of the NDP Government and will look to fulfill as much of their agenda as is feasible within this term.

From a strategy perspective I think the best plan to counter-attack their efforts is to escalate the matter enough that opposition parties campaign on a platform to see the legislation struck. At that point consultation and planning can begin again on a new plan that strikes a better balance.

To be clear, I'm not for unrestricted OHV use in these areas by any means, but that user group is just the low hanging fruit of a much more disconcerting goal.

Excellent observation. You've captured the political reality succinctly. I'm no OHV enthusiast, as I stated previously in this thread but they need all the support we can provide. The "low hanging fruit analogy" is most appropriate....

[Newview01]

Originally Posted by Taco

From my point of view it looks more like resistance to change than any real desire to protect headwater country. Go ahead, protest all you feel a need to. I had my say as well, I've written the Premier and the Minister of the Environment expressing my support of the Castle Park proposal as it currently stands.

Sometimes even an NDP Government gets it right.

Just because they align with your feelings it doesn't mean they are right.

Many are pointing out the fact that while they don't use OHVs themselves, they understand the implications. Hunting and fishing will eventually be banned. Supporting the precursor movements simply speeds up the process.

[two_ker]

Originally Posted by Taco

From my point of view it looks more like resistance to change than any real desire to protect headwater country. Go ahead, protest all you feel a need to. I had my say as well, I've written the Premier and the Minister of the Environment expressing my support of the Castle Park proposal as it currently stands.

Sometimes even an NDP Government gets it right.

Taco how many miles of river between the "headwaters" and lethbridge? Does any of it pass thru farmland or near feedlots.? How much herbicide or pesticide or runoff from feedlots enter the river? Any idea on how much water is pumped out for irrigation? And you are worried about some ohv's.