Sheep Part 3

[209x50]

The opportunity for sheep hunters to harvest true trophys is taken away by average Alberta residents harvesting the fast growing imature rams.
Trophy Sheep hunting should not be set up so Albertans can get a participation award by killing sub mature rams.

Unfortunatley the AOF has infuence on ASRD decisions that apease the armchair hunters and not the dyed in wool sheephunter

It is embarrassing that the originator of this statement thinks he is justified in demanding better quality sheep on the mountain for him at the expense of "average Alberta Residents"

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

What it will hurt Dale is that it will prevent 700 dedicated mountain hunters from hunting the mountains for 5 years. By F&W's own definition it is illegal to accompany another hunter on a hunt and assist in that hunt in any way. (Darcy, please don't go off on a tangent here about what I've done and what Rich has done. I have no interest in debating this subject...it's in black and white) I'm just passing along what the Wildlife Act says. So following that, if a hunter kills a ram and wants to follow the letter of the law, he/she must basically stay out of the mountains during hunting season with his hunting companions for five years. Some will say that F&W will never enforce that and they could be right but by the letter of the law, that's what a five-year wait would do. Do we really want to promote that type of regulation? Do we really want to open that door? I can think of no more draconian regulation.

No your right TJ but like I said if changes are made this is better than the alternative. The only solution that you are for is to do nothing as you see no problem is there. Maybe your right and maybe your wrong but im not gunna sit around and see if your wrong and we end up with even less mature sheep or a major population decline and then even larger restrictions implied. All I stated is that the wait is a better first step than the draws.

Bringing up the wildlife act is a waste as we know EVERYONE does it and F+W isnt gunna enforce it. So that has absolutly no bearing on the issue. I understand that you wanna use this to make your thoughts stronger but everyone has seen you and 209 do the exact thing your commenting as being totaly illegal. This is undeniable as we have all see the documented proof of you two helping and coaching your lady friends!! So if anyone is to be targeted im sure F+W would have an easy time with all the video footage you guys have!!!!!
SG

[ishootbambi]

well again, we all agree that restricting sheep hunters whether through draw, or waiting period, or whatever, is the only way to improve trophy quality. again, not everyone thinks trophy quality is a problem. now restricting guys from hunting anything in the mountains is a big leap. you realize there are elk, moose, bears, cougars and wolves in the mountains too. i never said i was for keeping guys out of the mountains, just reducing the death toll of immature rams. i am for a draw on mule deer as i think it has done great things for the species, yet i chase whitetails right alongside the mules. i can still hunt when i am not drawn for mule deer so that post makes no sense.

[sheepguide]

They have prooven bambi, it isnt about the mountains or the adventure, its about their right to pull the trigger on a bighorn ram every 2 years. Guys that really love to hunt in the mountains will hunt there regardless.

[SLH]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Okay, I'll admit I'm the biggest critic when it comes to conspiracy theories and I'll happily accept any flack that comes my way but I'm breaking out the tinfoil hat. How does sheep go from being a non-issue last year to the hottest topic of every related hunting/conservation group out there. I smell a conspiracy here. Someone is manipulating the system to drive a private agenda and it stinks to high heaven. There is no coincidence here. I'll say it, the sky is falling. There is no way that all these groups just happened to think of these things similtaneously when there has been no indication from SRD that there is a problem. Funny how SRD seemed to support the same idea before AO members questioned them on it. I agree with 209, time to write some letters and find out what's really going here and find out who is pulling the string and to what end. Contrary to what many believe, individual letters do make a difference.

Sorry but I'm not willing to buy into the "what can it hurt" school of thought. What can it hurt? Hunters' rights!

OK SH I’ll lay some flack your way. This isn’t the first time that until it crosses your desk in some manner you see appropriate that it can’t be true. We’ve seen it before and by the time it settled in a lot of hard feelings and dividing took place. People’s concerns regardless of your knowledge of the issue, doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

A lot of this I agree with you on including find a problem then fix it. I've heard there is a problem hopefully that bears out (doesnt' that sound pathetic) otherwise all of this becomes very suspect and it will start with SRD that has turned into an embarrasment in a lot of ways in the past few years.

The reality of the situation is that this was heard of last year as well, rumblings where being heard but little more than that. To say that AWSF started this ball rolling might not be fair they may very well have been the first to act (no first hand knowledge either way) but this was going on last year as well. My suspicions are that someone picked up the management plan and realized that the numbers weren’t where they hoped they would be, then put it aside. Then after the surveys that ACA has done to date that some more concerns where being raised based on those numbers. This coupled with the start of a rise in hunter numbers and a huge influx of people into the province (connected with an out of control economy and things like LUF) led to a reaction to act before it was too late (problem may or may not have been identified).

As much as I hate to I agree with 209 that some of this does have an elitist edge to it but we’ve all seen the roaches crawl out of the wood work when an opportunity presents itself.

I agree we haven’t had a problem identified yet but I sense we will be getting something soon as I’ve heard again that we will soon be getting a traveling road show from SRD to discuss issues.

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

And little pressure from the guys supporting these resolutions could also be directed at F&W to follow the letter of the law.

I'd never considered that but if you consider the reason given for the resolution, I can see those that support a 5-year wait not wanting experienced sheep hunters in the mountains with their buddies. The plot thickens.

I agree we haven’t had a problem identified yet but I sense we will be getting something soon as I’ve heard again that we will soon be getting a traveling road show from SRD to discuss issues.

If there truly is an issue, I hope you are right.

[depopulator]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Does there have to be something wrong before we do something to improve things? Ive never stated a problem. Just that i personaly feel that our sheep and sheephunting could be better.

STOP ASKING WHERE THE PROBLEM IS!!!!!!!!!

Yes, of course you need to know if and what problems exist if you legitimately want to implement a plan to 'fix' something (in this case, what are we trying to fix?). Implementing the currently proposed resolutions of a 5 year wait will only benefit special interest groups that are willing to pay top $$ for a sheep, at the expense of excluding resident hunting opportunity.

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

well again, we all agree that restricting sheep hunters whether through draw, or waiting period, or whatever, is the only way to improve trophy quality. again, not everyone thinks trophy quality is a problem.[.....] i never said i was for keeping guys out of the mountains, just reducing the death toll of immature rams.[....].

If putting more mature rams on the mountains is truly the concern, I think we can all agree that the first resolution that must be implemented is to eliminate non-resident sheep hunting - get rid of it! That will put many more mature rams on the mountains, as it is the guiding/outfitting industry that is the most efficient at taking our trophy sheep. This is fact. This would surely improve both the numbers and age class of rams, while maintaining and improving resident opportunty to look over more mature rams. There is no reason why residents should to accept anything less.

[Single Malt]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Letters are our biggest defense from needless bureaucracy and meaningless hunter management in our sport these two fellows below are really good people to address them too.

I couldn't agree more- letters are very powerful, far more powerful than an email. I think we also need to write to the new minister.

Honourable Mel Knight
Legislature Office
#404 Legislature Building
10800-97 Avenue
Edmonton, AB
Canada T5K 2B6

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by depopulator

Yes, of course you need to know if and what problems exist if you legitimately want to implement a plan to 'fix' something (in this case, what are we trying to fix?). Implementing the currently proposed resolutions of a 5 year wait will only benefit special interest groups that are willing to pay top $$ for a sheep, at the expense of excluding resident hunting opportunity.

Yes you do need a problem to fix it but when your wanting to improve something you dont need a problem.

Originally Posted by depopulator

If putting more mature rams on the mountains is truly the concern, I think we can all agree that the first resolution that must be implemented is to eliminate non-resident sheep hunting - get rid of it! That will put many more mature rams on the mountains, as it is the guiding/outfitting industry that is the most efficient at taking our trophy sheep. This is fact. This would surely improve both the numbers and age class of rams, while maintaining and improving resident opportunty to look over more mature rams. There is no reason why residents should to accept anything less.

I agree with you 100% that it should hit the outfitting industry. I dont beleive a total revoking of all tags but a deffinate decrease in tag numbers.

This is undeniable as we have all see the documented proof of you two helping and coaching your lady friends!!

So what, I had a licence when Vanessa killed her ram. I had every right to be there as part of the hunt. That's the opportunity you seem so desperate to take away from sheep hunters. Truth be known, there wasn't much coaching if you read the "documented" proof. I did do my share of packing though. I was going to ask if you ever tiring of talking about things you know nothing about but I guess that is a rhetorical question. Vanessa says to pass along a thank you for belittling her accomplishment. You want to add something about its age or score?

Darcy, if you ever took the time to read my posts instead of so desperatly looking to flap your gums in disagreement, you'll see that I said there was no point bringing up the accompanying laws as my only points was that the Wildlife Act read that way. My point was that we were already over regulated with stupid regulations but apparently you missed that point. Now let's get back to talking about sheep and not your unhealthy facination with my life..that is unless you want to hurl a few more insults at a fine lady hunter. It seems to be a hobby of yours.

[walking buffalo]

Bringing up the wildlife act is a waste as we know EVERYONE does it and F+W isnt gunna enforce it.

quote from sheepguide

The comments on following the law do make sense. B.C. has a battle on their hands dealing with sheep outfitters, residents, packers, guides. The letter of the law evolves, usually meaning tighter controls and enforcement, with residents usually taking the hit.

OK SG, Lets say you killed your sheep last year, didn't draw a LEH tag, you hold a wildlife cert. and a general wt,b bear tag, and go out hunting with a sheep tag holder, you are both in the scree way above treeline, you both have rifles, spotting scopes on the rams. Are YOU really hunting within your licenses? I'll agree that today, you are, but within one court case from charges pressured from an interest group, you are Not legal.

Case Law developes from precident. One judgement and the law changes.
A weakened foundation would remain for Resident Sheep Hunters if these type of resolutions continue.

[Single Malt]

Originally Posted by depopulator

If putting more mature rams on the mountains is truly the concern, I think we can all agree that the first resolution that must be implemented is to eliminate non-resident sheep hunting - get rid of it! That will put many more mature rams on the mountains, as it is the guiding/outfitting industry that is the most efficient at taking our trophy sheep. This is fact. This would surely improve both the numbers and age class of rams, while maintaining and improving resident opportunty to look over more mature rams. There is no reason why residents should to accept anything less.

Well said depop.

Again, hard data needs to be brought forth to justify any change. The first step after this should be to restrict or eliminate non-resident hunters. Then and only then would I ever consider looking at restricting the sheep hunting opportunities that my Albertan daughter and son will inherit in our province.

[Vindalbakken]

It seems rather pointless to be discussing solutions without a problem. Every item that has been put forward so far will have a different effect on sheep and on hunters. They are not equivalent. Some of them may have the desired effect that people on here hope they will, but some of them have the potential to have the opposite effect. If SRD is contemplating changes and are feeling pressured enough to actually implement a public consultation process (last one I participated in was close to 30 years ago and overwhelming public opinion was ignored) why are they being so secretive about it?

Why are those who claim to have "a source" holding back? Get your sources working for some real information that will be of benefit to all Albertans.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

So what, I had a licence when Vanessa killed her ram.

Oh i see I hit a nerve there TJ. Did I say anything about Vanessa's sheep?
My point was that everyone does it whether you can admit it or not. You have helped many people get animals when you have not had a tag. I guess you must have had a late season cadomin sheep draw when you were with Rich when he killed one of his rams then hey. Oh ya you just took pictures. Right. Whats stopping every other person from doing the same as you? Nothing, so I guess everyone will still be in the mountains. End of story.

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

quote from sheepguide

The comments on following the law do make sense. B.C. has a battle on their hands dealing with sheep outfitters, residents, packers, guides. The letter of the law evolves, usually meaning tighter controls and enforcement, with residents usually taking the hit.

OK SG, Lets say you killed your sheep last year, didn't draw a LEH tag, you hold a wildlife cert. and a general wt,b bear tag, and go out hunting with a sheep tag holder, you are both in the scree way above treeline, you both have rifles, scopes on the rams. Are YOU really hunting within your licenses? I'll agree that today, you are, but within one court case from charges pressured from an interest group, you are Not legal.

Case Law developes from precident. One judgement and the law changes.
A weakened foundation would remain for Resident Sheep Hunters if these type of resolutions continue.

Truth be known buffalo...you don't even need to have a gun. According to the Wildlife Act, all you need to do is assist a hunter. I'm sure it's a law that's been rarely enforced but to totally discount it is naive for sure. If the purpose of the 5-year wait is to stop successful sheep hunters from killing sheep, it's not a big stretch that it could be used to prevent successful sheep hunters from helping their buddies. If SG is as serious of a sheep hunter as he say he is, I can't see him staying out of the mountains and helping friends and relatives. So how does the 5-year wait reduce harvest again? The only way is if F&W keeps successful hunters totally out of the mountains.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

quote from sheepguide

OK SG, Lets say you killed your sheep last year, didn't draw a LEH tag, you hold a wildlife cert. and a general wt,b bear tag, and go out hunting with a sheep tag holder, you are both in the scree way above treeline, you both have rifles, spotting scopes on the rams. Are YOU really hunting within your licenses? I'll agree that today, you are, but within one court case from charges pressured from an interest group, you are Not legal.

sure lots of blackbears up there and as TJ said its ok if your the camera man
I understand but now almost half of the guys out there wont be able to go already because there are alot of guys that go right now to just acompany. Now TJ wants to bring up a law thats gunna keep them out with out even dealing with any sheep issues. Plus its gunna keep every parent from ever taking any of their kids hunting!!!

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Oh i see I hit a nerve there TJ. Did I say anything about Vanessa's sheep?
My point was that everyone does it whether you can admit it or not. You have helped many people get animals when you have not had a tag. I guess you must have had a late season cadomin sheep draw when you were with Rich when he killed one of his rams then hey. Oh ya you just took pictures. Right. Whats stopping every other person from doing the same as you? Nothing, so I guess everyone will still be in the mountains. End of story.

You hit a big nerve. Belittling other sheep hunters shows an incredible lack of class but you accel at it.

It's not the end of the story SG. You believe that the 5-year wait will reduce harvest and put more older rams on the mountain yet in the next breath you say that you'd still be out there helping people. So how has the 5-year wait accomplished anything. Whether you pull the trigger or your buddy or wife, the sheep is just as dead. If the 5-year wait is designed to prevent successful sheep hunters from killing multiple rams it's not a big stretch to see F&W dusting off the accompanying law and wanting to prevent those guys on the 5-year wait from helping people kill the rams. Dead is dead.

Forget about what Rich and I have done in the past and think about how the 5-year wait resolution reads. It had nothing to do with sheep numbers and everything to do with keeping successful sheep hunters ouut of the mountains. F&W already has a mechanism in place to do that...you honestly think that they wouldn't use it down the road. Please tell me you aren't that trusting of the government.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

You hit a big nerve. Belittling other sheep hunters shows an incredible lack of class but you accel at it.

You know what TJ I did say something about one person and appolagized for it.
I never belittled anyone since other than maybe you or Rich but that has gone back and forth between all of us not just one party!!!!!!!!!!

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Truth be known buffalo...you don't even need to have a gun. According to the Wildlife Act, all you need to do is assist a hunter. I'm sure it's a law that's been rarely enforced but to totally discount it is naive for sure. If the purpose of the 5-year wait is to stop successful sheep hunters from killing sheep, it's not a big stretch that it could be used to prevent successful sheep hunters from helping their buddies. If SG is as serious of a sheep hunter as he say he is, I can't see him staying out of the mountains and helping friends and relatives. So how does the 5-year wait reduce harvest again? The only way is if F&W keeps successful hunters totally out of the mountains.

Note: edited "scopes" to "Spotting scopes"
Wasn't implying rifle scopes before. For those that were sure to catch that.

Like many others, I would be out there too under the same curcumstances. Of course I would have to get that Ram first.

There are a lot of laws that get little or no use, until authorities decided to use them. Good to know.

We have a whole lot of energy being spent here on unknowns, and rumours, some which have panned out, ie AFGA resolution. THanks to those who have made the effort to keep vigilant regarding potential changes to hunting, and making it public. Write those letters, ask for a written response.

[Bouhuntress]

This is undeniable as we have all see the documented proof of you two helping and coaching your lady friends!!

I took the coaching comment as belittling what I have accomplished!

[sheepguide]

Sorry if you may have took something I said the wrong way TJ but if you bring up a law that you use to try and strengthen your point with make sure its not one that you yourself break!!!!!

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Bouhuntress

I took the coaching comment as belittling what I have accomplished!

Oh im sure you would. It wasnt saying anything negative about you and you can take it how you want. Coaching is there between all hunters that hunt together no matter your experience. Guys always tell guys to shoot again or call the shots. Or put in there 2 cents on stalk routs. My wife and my friends do it for me. If it offends you well sorry to hear that but its your companion that brought up the law!!!!

Nice trump card TJ!! Well played!

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Sorry if you may have took something I said the wrong way TJ but if you bring up a law that you use to try and strengthen your point with make sure its not one that you yourself break!!!!!

Darcy, I appreciate the fact that you're the biggest reader of my articles and the most loyal watcher of my show but this has nothing to do with what I have or haven't done. It has everything to do with the fact that F&W has a tool at their disposal to prevent successful sheep hunters out of the mountains. Forget about your facination with me for a minute and look at the big picture. There is a law in place to prevent successful sheep hunters from being in the mountains regardless of what you or I have done. What's to stop F&W from dusting it off and using it to accomplish the goals of the 5-year wait.

(Please God let him read this post in its entirety)

[Duk Dog]

Go away for a few days and it is next to impossible to catch up with this thread. (or others that are now under lockdown)

We have had endless amounts of discussion with solutions to the sheep hunting "problems" in the province. As far as I can tell the problems with sheep hunting begin with the following resolution -

Trophy Sheep Licenses
BE IT RESOLVED THAT the waiting period for a hunter who has harvested a trophy sheep to purchase another trophy sheep license be increased from one year to five years.
BRIEF: This change would eliminate those hunters who shoot younger rams every second year. If they knew they could only shoot a ram every five years, they would be more selective. This would also allow a wider range of hunters to harvest a ram.

Some factual things I have gathered from the threads revealing problems are:

1) issues with predators
2) issues with habit loss (variety of reasons)

I've also read a few times the concern for lack of mature rams, but also read in the next breath that these elusive creatures do exist - albeit on non hunting mine lease sites, and in non hunting parks.
Based on the known issues such as increased predator populations, and loss of (quality) habitat I fail to see why Alberta residents would be so eager to get in line for a reduction of hunting opportunities. That won't help the predator or habitat issues one bit.
Why not put pressure on SRD and other wildlife groups to put more time, effort and money into things we all seem to agree on such as improving habitat (ie controlled burns) rather than going for the easy out by removing resident hunting opportunties.

Nice trump card TJ!! Well played!

Yes, Vaneesa's head is so vaccant she's never had a thought of her own....

You do know that women vote these days right?

Although I have seen your treatment of women in other threads so I guess no surprise here. You truly are a piece of work Darcy.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Darcy, I appreciate the fact that you're the biggest reader of my articles and the most loyal watcher of my show but this has nothing to do with what I have or haven't done. It has everything to do with the fact that F&W has a tool at their disposal to prevent successful sheep hunters out of the mountains. Forget about your facination with me for a minute and look at the big picture. There is a law in place to prevent successful speep hunters from being in the mountains regardless of what you or I have done. What's to stop F&W from dusting it off and using it to accomplish the goals of the 5-year wait.

(Please God let him read this post in its entirety)

Your right TJ it probably is there. But then why does the regulations require under age hunters to be acompanied by an adult? Isnt that telling people to break the law?

I think that what is stopping F+W is the shear numbers of people that are out there doing this exact thing. They would have a total revolt if they tried to get into this to deep.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Although I have seen your treatment of women in other threads so I guess no surprise here. You truly are a piece of work Darcy.

Ill put this in terms you can understand, if you really want a face to face confrontation then keep on implying things. If you wanna say I degrate women i will get kicked off here for threatening people!!!!
Maybe if im so degrating to all you women out there tell the Mods and they will get me off, till then TJ you may wanna try not to get to 209's level.

Using the women issue to try and make me disapear and you be right isnt gunna work.
SG

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Duk Dog

Go away for a few days and it is next to impossible to catch up with this thread. (or others that are now under lockdown)

We have had endless amounts of discussion with solutions to the sheep hunting "problems" in the province. As far as I can tell the problems with sheep hunting begin with the following resolution -

Trophy Sheep Licenses
BE IT RESOLVED THAT the waiting period for a hunter who has harvested a trophy sheep to purchase another trophy sheep license be increased from one year to five years.
BRIEF: This change would eliminate those hunters who shoot younger rams every second year. If they knew they could only shoot a ram every five years, they would be more selective. This would also allow a wider range of hunters to harvest a ram.

Some factual things I have gathered from the threads revealing problems are:

1) issues with predators
2) issues with habit loss (variety of reasons)

I've also read a few times the concern for lack of mature rams, but also read in the next breath that these elusive creatures do exist - albeit on non hunting mine lease sites, and in non hunting parks.
Based on the known issues such as increased predator populations, and loss of (quality) habitat I fail to see why Alberta residents would be so eager to get in line for a reduction of hunting opportunities. That won't help the predator or habitat issues one bit.
Why not put pressure on SRD and other wildlife groups to put more time, effort and money into things we all seem to agree on such as improving habitat (ie controlled burns) rather than going for the easy out by removing resident hunting opportunties.

Thanks for interupting my soap opera

A little more focus on wildlife and habitat management, remain vigilant of special interest. Talk loudly, need the Gov. to hear your opinions.

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Thanks for interupting my soap opera

A little more focus on wildlife and habitat management, remain vigilant of special interest. Talk loudly, need the Gov. to hear your opinions.

He does have a way of getting on my nerves...my bad.

You are right about sending letters. SRD does listen and AO members have become a very important source of input. Stand up and be counted!