Killing Power of Cartridges

[Stinky Coyote]

The term ‘magnum’ sounds so much bigger and deadlier than it is. 2700 fps vs 3000 fps is 10% difference in velocity, do animals notice that difference given same bullet? Shooter will notice difference more because shooter will be looking at approx. 32% more recoil energy to gain that 10% velocity.

We seem to often lose sight of bigger picture or perspectives on this stuff.

Another example is a .264” diameter bullet to a .308” diam. a 15% difference…on a scale of bullet size to the size of big game animals the difference in diam. is even more largely insignificant.

Bullet construction and specs for game intended along with shot placement and adequate velocity is what really matters, not the head stamp on the cartridge.

The bullet and the shooter do all the important work so that’s where most capability needs to be up to task.

Some great posts here saying exactly that just different perspectives and interpretations.

I’ve had great confidence and seen great performance from variety of combos also. Have shot quite a few things with stronger cartridges/bullets to see game run 50-100 yards and other much smaller cartridges flatten critters more decisively so I no longer worry much about the headstamp and pay most attention to the bullet and the shooter. Stay in the lane for both and it’s deadly combo.

[huntinstuff]

A lot has been said about watching your animal after it is hit. Then waiting.....

It bears repeating. I try to pound it thru my boys heads......give it some time. Sometimes 1 half hour or even an hour if the animal runs in the bush. Its not a bird hunt....

[brewster29]

Originally Posted by chuck

560 yards. Bang flop. No CNS or bone hit. Name the cartridge.

280 Rem with 140 TTSX?

[leo]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

The term ‘magnum’ sounds so much bigger and deadlier than it is. 2700 fps vs 3000 fps is 10% difference in velocity, do animals notice that difference given same bullet?

You cannot use this analogy unless you take bullet construction into the equation. In the photo I posted, the 210 grain Barnes TTSX from my 340 Weatherby was recovered from an elk shot at approximately 150 yards. That bullet was running close to a chrono graphed 3200 FPS from the muzzle, and lost 1 grain in weight. A 210 grain Barnes TTSX from a 340 Weatherby is likely going to expand to a bigger wound channel, than a 338-06 firing the same bullet at the same given range. In some respects, this does equate to a quicker kill, given the same correct shot placement with each. It's semantics, I agree, but bullet construction needs to be accounted for when you start pushing over 2700 fps, and when you start reaching out beyond 500 yards. Regardless, dead is dead, whether it be in 2 seconds or 20.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by leo

You cannot use this analogy unless you take bullet construction into the equation. In the photo I posted, the 210 grain Barnes TTSX from my 340 Weatherby was recovered from an elk shot at approximately 150 yards. That bullet was running close to a chrono graphed 3200 FPS from the muzzle, and lost 1 grain in weight. A 210 grain Barnes TTSX from a 340 Weatherby is likely going to expand to a bigger wound channel, than a 338-06 firing the same bullet at the same given range. In some respects, this does equate to a quicker kill, given the same correct shot placement with each. It's semantics, I agree, but bullet construction needs to be accounted for when you start pushing over 2700 fps, and when you start reaching out beyond 500 yards. Regardless, dead is dead, whether it be in 2 seconds or 20.

I agree with you 100%. I tried not to take things beyond the subject of the thread.

Your example will likely show dead is dead as you say, those would both be highly overkill options with deep penetration from any angle on any class of game. There may be more dramatic visuals and internal damage noticed?, maybe, that is much harder to predict reliably. The bigger is better is not that reliable or predictable.

There is more potential in the 340 option, but there are also instances where the 338-06 could easily outperform the 340. That would depend on shot angle, game animal, etc. Ie; how much of the potential ends up in the dirt beyond the critter vs an end to end shot where all the potential ends up inside the critter. An end to end example may reveal that potential more thoroughly as the 340 may hit with 25% more energy and equally dump it along it's journey which in turn may show more internal damage and maybe more dramatic response from the animal? However, the slower one may not open as much retaining a higher sd and could even out penetrate the faster option? While both may get the opportunity to dump all their ft/lbs across every inch of the bullets travel...chances are very good dead will be dead from either. If you used that example on 6 elk, were able to watch the shots, and did necropsy on all 6 afterwards...would you be able to tell which cartridge did what? If that was the information kept from you...would you be able to tell? The bullet might be able to reveal which was which due to expansion comparison where you'd naturally deduce the larger expansion curled further back over the length would be the faster one. But would you see the 20% extra damage from the extra speed/ft/lbs internally? Enough to tell the difference? These are the lotteries. We all see spectacular performance at times from not spectacular cartridge/bullet combo's and equally unimpressive performance by things that sound like will vaporize animals.

I've shot quite a few things paying attention to these observations and you could hold a handful of cartridges over what you see and conclude any of them could do that, i've also been shooting things with a little 6.5 grendel for a bit now that if you hold that cartridge over what it did and a .270 win right beside it...everyone would say the .270 did it....so there's that too. I'm actually getting shorter recoveries from the little puker so far. There's a balance of overkill most of the time and comes in handy on longer shots or more challenging shot placements but that could be more mental comfort than fact.

There seems to be some magical combinations of bullet velocity ranges, constructions, penetration potentials, to game intended, that are very efficient and somewhat defy what the headstamp suggests.

The bullet and the shooter do the bulk of the work. They must work together, as rarely if the shooter doesn't do their part does the bullet, or cartridge that drives it come in to save the day.

We have nearly limitless options of bullets and cartridges to drive them, to match our desires for the on game efficiencies we prefer, and at the distances we intend etc. It's great, most of our choices are up to the task in most of our situations and game intended.

[skidderman]

I would say the intended species has some factor to it. Once shot a bull elk at 400 yards, (no I could not get closer) with a 308. Broadside in the lungs. Bullet only entered one lung & it was no fun trying to track it. In fact I almost gave up. Had I had a better bullet perhaps it would have penetrated both lungs. There are so many choices these days & a lot are good. I find it odd that a 7mm is called a magnum & the 30-06 not. Both with the same weight of bullet have little terminal difference. As well in my experience one is not always offered the perfect shot thus a little extra power, speed or whatever might help. Buy one of each & go shoot. Haaaa

[hawk-i]

The cold truth of the matter is: if you shoot a moose standing broadside in the lungs at say 400 yards, it will die just a quick if that shot was made with a 308win or a 300 win mag.
Shot placement is the deciding factor not caliber.

[Ariu]

Originally Posted by hawk-i

....
Shot placement is the deciding factor not caliber.

Exactly, the biggest grizzly in AB was killed with a 22lr.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

The term ‘magnum’ sounds so much bigger and deadlier than it is. 2700 fps vs 3000 fps is 10% difference in velocity, do animals notice that difference given same bullet? Shooter will notice difference more because shooter will be looking at approx. 32% more recoil energy to gain that 10% velocity.

We seem to often lose sight of bigger picture or perspectives on this stuff.

Another example is a .264” diameter bullet to a .308” diam. a 15% difference…on a scale of bullet size to the size of big game animals the difference in diam. is even more largely insignificant.

Bullet construction and specs for game intended along with shot placement and adequate velocity is what really matters, not the head stamp on the cartridge.

The bullet and the shooter do all the important work so that’s where most capability needs to be up to task.

Some great posts here saying exactly that just different perspectives and interpretations.

I’ve had great confidence and seen great performance from variety of combos also. Have shot quite a few things with stronger cartridges/bullets to see game run 50-100 yards and other much smaller cartridges flatten critters more decisively so I no longer worry much about the headstamp and pay most attention to the bullet and the shooter. Stay in the lane for both and it’s deadly combo.

You know that a larger bullet diameter means that it has a larger surface area. Right? So the difference between a 6.5 cal and a 308 is roughly 30% not 15. It’s the surface area of that expanded bullet that makes the difference. If you jump from a 30 cal to a 338 its roughly 30% again. A 30% increase is substantially.

I love the part where you talked about matching a bullets construction to the game intended. Lol it made me laugh. 123 gr match bullets on moose lol

Higher muzzle velocities allow bullets to have the same effect but at further ranges. It also increases bullet expansion. So a faster bullet makes a bigger hole. All things being equal.

SD is irrelevant. Before you even say it’s Important. It really isn’t.

If you had animals consistently running 50-100 yards before expiring
Then your bullet velocity and selection was wrong for the task

[marky_mark]

FYI a 340 wby shooting the same tsx bullet as a 338/06 will always expand more reliably with the same shot placement at the same distance. It may zip through the animal but it will transfer the same amount of energy. The difference is, the wby just has more at any given point

[Madocmike]

I'll throw my 2 cents in on this topic. I have been around a few blocks and have hunted every season since I turned 15 way back in 1976 haha
I've shot more bears than people have fingers to count, and lost count at the number of whitetail, but a conservative estimate would be 70 +
Personally I've shot the majority with my .270 using either 130 or 150 grain bullet. The most important thing is quality bullets and quality shot placement. I've never had an animal complain that they were not shot hard enough with this caliber. A gun that fits you is a gun that will shoot for you.
I've experimented with almost every caliber common to us North American hunters from the .444 to the .243 for big game and can honestly tell you. Dead is dead. That being said, we need to use common sense and match the caliber to the game and situation. While a .243 will kill a grizzly, it certainly wouldn't be my first choice to use, but I do think a lot of marketing has convinced people into thinking the magnums are the only way you can get an elk or moose. That's plain silly. A .270 and 30.06 and .308 have killed every animal on this continent and will continue to do so.
Now if a magnum is on your list, absolutely go get one. As I've told my wife before - I've go more guns than I need, but not as many as I want.

Michael.

[wildwoods]

The most underrated hunting skill is the ability to shoot well

So much time and money gets spent on trail cams, camo brands, high priced optics, fuel, scouting, obtaining permission- all 100% worthy causes. But when it all boils down can you effectively trust yourself to shoot well at all reasonable distances? I’ve hunted with a lot of people and can honestly say it’s a definitely very overlooked skill set and way under practiced...

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

You know that a larger bullet diameter means that it has a larger surface area. Right? So the difference between a 6.5 cal and a 308 is roughly 30% not 15. It’s the surface area of that expanded bullet that makes the difference. If you jump from a 30 cal to a 338 its roughly 30% again. A 30% increase is substantially.

I love the part where you talked about matching a bullets construction to the game intended. Lol it made me laugh. 123 gr match bullets on moose lol

Higher muzzle velocities allow bullets to have the same effect but at further ranges. It also increases bullet expansion. So a faster bullet makes a bigger hole. All things being equal.

SD is irrelevant. Before you even say it’s Important. It really isn’t.

If you had animals consistently running 50-100 yards before expiring
Then your bullet velocity and selection was wrong for the task

I could care less how a bullet is marketed. Cup and core bullets at moderate velocities with adequate sd/weight/diam for game intended are long proven subjectively as very effective. They can be labeled however the flip they want to label them, they could call them fairydust bitchcats for all i care, if i like the objective data then i'll use them...no complaints so far.

As a long time bowhunter, having critters go 50-100 yards doesn't worry me much. The shot placement is always paramount, we typically use more than enough for more than enough situations/distances/game choices.

p.s. i still have a couple more bags of that moose burger left and the taco's are amazing, i'll be having it again for dinner tomorrow now that you've reminded me, moose aren't that tough to kill, the fairydust bitchcats smoked that thing.

p.s.s. this is sns2's thread, and it's great thread btw, good resource, you're hijacking it trying to draw me into another measuring contest

p.s.s.s my current choice is a pretty moderate if not old school by objective standards but it's certainly effective....the opposite may be a .25-06 or .257 wby running some light tough mono's like 80gr ttsx and i absolutely appreciate both extremes and there is plenty of evidence both subjectively and objectively that show why they are both effective, there are many ways all this works and why, no need to get bent about trying to say one is better than the other when dead is dead, choose what you like and as you go, keep choosing what you like, you can argue all day with my freezer that i've chosen poorly but my freezer will disagree with you

[leo]

Going to original thread perimeters, recoil beyond a 300 bee with an accurate 180 grain bullet hasn’t bothered me yet, but I have no doubts that one day soon it could. My minimum choice bullet weight for Elk and Moose is a well constructed, accurate 140 grain bullet. Whether in a 6.5; .277; or .284 bullet. 100 grain for deer or antelope. Those are my personal preference and choice. Stuff what you want and go hunt.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

I could care less how a bullet is marketed. Cup and core bullets at moderate velocities with adequate sd/weight/diam for game intended are long proven subjectively as very effective. They can be labeled however the flip they want to label them, they could call them fairydust bitchcats for all i care, if i like the objective data then i'll use them...no complaints so far.

As a long time bowhunter, having critters go 50-100 yards doesn't worry me much. The shot placement is always paramount, we typically use more than enough for more than enough situations/distances/game choices.

p.s. i still have a couple more bags of that moose burger left and the taco's are amazing, i'll be having it again for dinner tomorrow now that you've reminded me, moose aren't that tough to kill, the fairydust bitchcats smoked that thing.

p.s.s. this is sns2's thread, and it's great thread btw, good resource, you're hijacking it trying to draw me into another measuring contest

p.s.s.s my current choice is a pretty moderate if not old school by objective standards but it's certainly effective....the opposite may be a .25-06 or .257 wby running some light tough mono's like 80gr ttsx and i absolutely appreciate both extremes and there is plenty of evidence both subjectively and objectively that show why they are both effective, there are many ways all this works and why, no need to get bent about trying to say one is better than the other when dead is dead, choose what you like and as you go, keep choosing what you like, you can argue all day with my freezer that i've chosen poorly but my freezer will disagree with you

What are you talking about?
I’m just stating that these differences between calibers are significant and can greatly influence the terminal performance. And that velocity impacts the rate of expansion.
Your just spinning the math and everything else that has been said... Again

Enjoy the tacos, I didn’t think you would have got that much meat off of that moose. Considering the amount of times you had to shoot it.

[cowmanbob]

Originally Posted by wildwoods

The most underrated hunting skill is the ability to shoot well

So much time and money gets spent on trail cams, camo brands, high priced optics, fuel, scouting, obtaining permission- all 100% worthy causes. But when it all boils down can you effectively trust yourself to shoot well at all reasonable distances? I’ve hunted with a lot of people and can honestly say it’s a definitely very overlooked skill set and way under practiced...

This here is a fairly accurate assessment of things.

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by wildwoods

The most underrated hunting skill is the ability to shoot well

So much time and money gets spent on trail cams, camo brands, high priced optics, fuel, scouting, obtaining permission- all 100% worthy causes. But when it all boils down can you effectively trust yourself to shoot well at all reasonable distances? I’ve hunted with a lot of people and can honestly say it’s a definitely very overlooked skill set and way under practiced...

Ed Zackerly!

[Dick284]

Let’s look at some of the worlds over achieving cartridges with respect to game getting.
Both are over 100 years old.

6.5x55
7x57

Given their rather pedestrian (compared to today’s cartridges) velocities, yet they have and continue to hit above their weight class(figuratively)
Then there’s the more modern twins to the old centurions.

6.5 Credmoore and .260 Rem.
7mm-08 Rem.

Same diameter and same bullet weights at about the same speed, and again they perform beyond what they show on paper.

That’s true killing ability, which gets confused with killing power.

Not knocking the snappier cousins either but bullet construction considerations become far more of a concern as things get faster.

Make good choices!

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

What are you talking about?
I’m just stating that these differences between calibers are significant and can greatly influence the terminal performance. And that velocity impacts the rate of expansion.
Your just spinning the math and everything else that has been said... Again

Enjoy the tacos, I didn’t think you would have got that much meat off of that moose. Considering the amount of times you had to shoot it.

well as funny as that is, i like to rotate my choices throughout the week, i shot more than that moose with the 6.5 fairdust bitchcat, and continue to keep adding every season, well the kids are starting to do the wackin and stackin also so i can chill out a bit now myself

as for your comment that if i had animals going 50-100 yards before then not as effective a choice...i agree, it was way overkill lol, .270, .270 wsm, 140 accubonds full clip, most things running 50-100, 6 now with the little slow 123gr fairydust bitchcats and they are all falling on the spot, weird, aren't you the one suggesting to keep going faster and bigger? anyway, glad we are finally starting to see things the same

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

well as funny as that is, i like to rotate my choices throughout the week, i shot more than that moose with the 6.5 fairdust bitchcat, and continue to keep adding every season, well the kids are starting to do the wackin and stackin also so i can chill out a bit now myself

as for your comment that if i had animals going 50-100 yards before then not as effective a choice...i agree, it was way overkill lol, .270, .270 wsm, 140 accubonds full clip, most things running 50-100, 6 now with the little slow 123gr fairydust bitchcats and they are all falling on the spot, weird, aren't you the one suggesting to keep going faster and bigger? anyway, glad we are finally starting to see things the same

Question really is, where did you hit them? Joking

I had that same set up
Same result
Sold it and went bigger
Results were better

[bucksnbears]

Originally Posted by shooter12

I had very disappointing experience with 270 Win and 140 gr Accubond shooting at 350 yds bull elk. It was a double lung shot, maybe a little high but still double lung.
The bull travelled around half mile before going down and we found him only the next morning. Meat was still okay but I stopped using this rifle bullet combo for elk and moose.
In our group we still use 270 WSM a lot with 130 Gr TSX or 160 Gr Nosler for
everything and results are much better then 270 Win.
But when going strictly elk or moose when shooting range expected to be longer then 350-400 yds I much prefer 300 magnums with a heavy bullet.

S12

Sorry.,I do not believe the first half of your story.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by brewster29

280 Rem with 140 TTSX?

The 270 Winchester and a 130 TSX.

[shooter12]

Originally Posted by bucksnbears

Sorry.,I do not believe the first half of your story.

It does not really matter to me if you believe it or not.
I posted about experience I had , that is all.

S12

[shooter12]

That is the elk we had trouble recovering after a high lung shot.
On the second photo there is an elk I killed with a bow and arrow .
It was a very high lung shot also as you can see from the photo.
This elk was down 40 yds from the spot he was shot.
Go figure of what have happened...

S12

[270person]

Originally Posted by shooter12

It does not really matter to me if you believe it or not.
I posted about experience I had , that is all.

S12

140 AB's at 3000fps or thereabouts are lethal in the 270. More than enough juice by a lot. Maybe the elk was bionic or meth'd up.

[shooter12]

Originally Posted by 270person

140 AB's at 3000fps or thereabouts are lethal in the 270. More than enough juice by a lot. Maybe the elk was bionic or meth'd up.

Maybe all of the above you've mentioned, but myself personally I've found a better choices for bigger animals like an elk and moose.
I killed actually many mules and whitetail deers with this rifle/bullet combination and was very happy with the performance.
But elk and moose are much bigger animals and I am one of those who does not mind to shoot at extended ranges .
So , a bit bigger and faster is better for me, withing a reason of course as I am not willing to carry extra weight neither receive more recoil then needed.

S12

[wildwoods]

Originally Posted by shooter12

Maybe all of the above you've mentioned, but myself personally I've found a better choices for bigger animals like an elk and moose.
I killed actually many mules and whitetail deers with this rifle/bullet combination and was very happy with the performance.
But elk and moose are much bigger animals and I am one of those who does not mind to shoot at extended ranges .
So , a bit bigger and faster is better for me, withing a reason of course as I am not willing to carry extra weight neither receive more recoil then needed.

S12

I do all of my killing with a .270 and 130 gr interlocks. Took down a big bodied bull at 400 yards last fall. I’ve never had any issues knocking down elk with this setup. Very odd what happened to you with the high lung shot. I don’t think a larger caliber would have fixed the issue though in that case. Odd

[shooter12]

Originally Posted by wildwoods

I do all of my killing with a .270 and 130 gr interlocks. Took down a big bodied bull at 400 yards last fall. I’ve never had any issues knocking down elk with this setup. Very odd what happened to you with the high lung shot. I don’t think a larger caliber would have fixed the issue though in that case. Odd

Maybe it would not , but more likely it would .
I agree it was a bit of an odd shot but it is what is.

S12

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by 270person

140 AB's at 3000fps or thereabouts are lethal in the 270. More than enough juice by a lot. Maybe the elk was bionic or meth'd up.

i vouch for it also, i wasn't disappointed in performance, it's a strong combo in .270 or .270 wsm, the 140 ab might be a little too tough/delayed to give the more dramatic response is all i can surmise, but i don't doubt for a second it would show amazing work if given a much more challenging shot angle, my critters were dying quick but not flopping on the spot as well as something i'm shooting now that's half as strong, my ram took a high shoulder at 35 yards exit and was still bicycle kicking slowly from it's back when i walked up to it, up the chest with a second shot and found that bullet under the hide along the rear ham...that was .270 wsm 140 ab full tilt point blank and that bullet held up like a champ so it's a tough bullet imo, it's kicking around the garage in the tub with a bunch of other keepsakes

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by chuck

The 270 Winchester and a 130 TSX.

Wow

would love to know more about that necropsy, launch velocity?, recovered bullet? you know i want to math the shat out of that one! awesome