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  #31  
Old 06-11-2018, 08:19 PM
skidderman skidderman is offline
 
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There is an old gunsmith on youtube I believe called The Old Gunsmith. He says he has built several custom rifles over the years. What he looks for is the lowest sd possible. Once he finds that he then plays a bit to fine tune. His premise is that low sd means consistency. To me the guy makes sense. I have not tried this or the ladder tests but I do find these ideas intriguing.
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  #32  
Old 06-11-2018, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by skidderman View Post
There is an old gunsmith on youtube I believe called The Old Gunsmith. He says he has built several custom rifles over the years. What he looks for is the lowest sd possible. Once he finds that he then plays a bit to fine tune. His premise is that low sd means consistency. To me the guy makes sense. I have not tried this or the ladder tests but I do find these ideas intriguing.
Would you please explain how he and you came to that conclusion?
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  #33  
Old 06-12-2018, 01:07 PM
skidderman skidderman is offline
 
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Would you please explain how he and you came to that conclusion?
His thought process is pretty simple. If the average difference in velocity is low, say 8fps or so then the premiss is that you have made ammunition that does not vary from one round to the next. If your difference in speed is say 125 fps then something is not consistent. Without consistency it would be harder to have tight groups. Like I said I for one have not gone this far. I am a hunter, not a target shooter so I go for the best group at 100 yards & I call it a day. However if I went for consistency or low SD I might find that getting that one nice load that works really well gives me the confidence on making that one difficult shot. To me shooting is about confidence in what you & your rifle can do time after time. If I have no confidence then my chances of blowing that one shot of a lifetime might be lost. Learning about this stuff to me is like candy. It makes me want to get out & shoot & experiment more. That makes it fun, the way it should be!!!!!
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  #34  
Old 06-12-2018, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by skidderman View Post
His thought process is pretty simple. If the average difference in velocity is low, say 8fps or so then the premiss is that you have made ammunition that does not vary from one round to the next. If your difference in speed is say 125 fps then something is not consistent. Without consistency it would be harder to have tight groups. Like I said I for one have not gone this far. I am a hunter, not a target shooter so I go for the best group at 100 yards & I call it a day. However if I went for consistency or low SD I might find that getting that one nice load that works really well gives me the confidence on making that one difficult shot. To me shooting is about confidence in what you & your rifle can do time after time. If I have no confidence then my chances of blowing that one shot of a lifetime might be lost. Learning about this stuff to me is like candy. It makes me want to get out & shoot & experiment more. That makes it fun, the way it should be!!!!!
Thank you for that explanation. I now see where your are coming from. I may be wrong but being a hunter I sort of think that higher sectional density may be better for terminal performance even though it may not wring out the best consistency.

What gives me confidence is the ability to hit the kill zone every single time and the confidence of knowing the bullet will do its job when it gets there.

Before the development of some really good hunting bullets I nearly always chose Nosler partitions that really did not have a reputation as being tack drivers. The Nosler partitions never disappointed me.
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  #35  
Old 06-12-2018, 08:37 PM
Soulcousin Soulcousin is offline
 
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Originally Posted by covey ridge View Post
Thank you for that explanation. I now see where your are coming from. I may be wrong but being a hunter I sort of think that higher sectional density may be better for terminal performance even though it may not wring out the best consistency.

What gives me confidence is the ability to hit the kill zone every single time and the confidence of knowing the bullet will do its job when it gets there.

Before the development of some really good hunting bullets I nearly always chose Nosler partitions that really did not have a reputation as being tack drivers. The Nosler partitions never disappointed me.
Gotta step in here....there are two different 'sd' terms being discussed. The sd being referred to by skidder is standard deviation, or the average difference in velocities shot to shot. Sectional density is a comparison of the weight of the bullet to the calibre (can't remember but one of those values might be squared). So for reloading a hunting round I'd strive for the highest sectional density bullet coupled with the lowest standard deviation load achieved by varying charge weight, seating depth, etc.
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  #36  
Old 06-12-2018, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Soulcousin View Post
Gotta step in here....there are two different 'sd' terms being discussed. The sd being referred to by skidder is standard deviation, or the average difference in velocities shot to shot. Sectional density is a comparison of the weight of the bullet to the calibre (can't remember but one of those values might be squared). So for reloading a hunting round I'd strive for the highest sectional density bullet coupled with the lowest standard deviation load achieved by varying charge weight, seating depth, etc.
Thanks for that clarification. sd for me has always meant sectional density. I goofed up and thought skidderman and the old smith were onto using projectiles with the least bearing surface.

It does make sense that the least deviation of velocities would or should translate into the best potential for accuracy.
Thanks
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  #37  
Old 06-13-2018, 11:52 AM
Salavee Salavee is offline
 
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Originally Posted by covey ridge View Post
Thanks for that clarification. sd for me has always meant sectional density. I goofed up and thought skidderman and the old smith were onto using projectiles with the least bearing surface.

It does make sense that the least deviation of velocities would or should translate into the best potential for accuracy.
Thanks
Lots of confusion between SD and Std Dev or StD (Standard Deviation) It's all in the way we write them.
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  #38  
Old 06-13-2018, 12:24 PM
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Lots of confusion between SD and Std Dev or StD (Standard Deviation) It's all in the way we write them.
Lord help us, someone is sure to give advice on STD’s
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  #39  
Old 06-13-2018, 12:34 PM
Salavee Salavee is offline
 
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Lord help us, someone is sure to give advice on STD’s
Yep ... those as well. Not to be confused with STD's
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  #40  
Old 06-17-2018, 12:10 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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I did use the OCW method, in conjunction with the chronograph, for a while and found that the lowest SD (Standard Deviation) did not always correspond with the most accurate load. However the most accurate load was usually just below or above the one with the lowest SD. For long range shooting the lowest SD load may be preferable as it will have less vertical at the longer ranges. Here are a couple examples of an OCW load workup.
[IMG][/IMG]
The above targets show the most accurate load at 20.6 grains H 4198 with the 32 V-Max and 20.3 grains as having the lowest SD. The 20.3 grain load shot to the same POI as my 32 Sierra BK load with H 322 and proved to shoot consistent sub 1/2 MOA in all rifles.

[IMG][/IMG]

I do prefer to use what I call a "Pressure Ladder" using only one shot per powder increment which is 0.1 grain in small cartridges like the 20 EXTREME, 0.3 grains in intermediate size and 0.5 grains in large cartridges. I like to use the chronograph and watch for pressure spikes, as indicated by increase in incremental velocity. These pressure spikes are usually followed by a drop in incremental velocity and result in bullets clumping together. These nodes can produce very stable loads over more than one increment increase in powder. the first node is usually found as the new brass first starts to expand beyond its elasticity and the second is when pressures are reaching max and near fire forming to the chamber. There is usually one found when fully fireformed brass is used but pressures are likely well beyond Saami .

Here is a ladder I did with the 55 Berger using Varget and Remington Brass.
[IMG][/IMG].
Shots 4, 5 & 6 clumped together in a 0.060" group so I did 5 shot groups over the Chronograph.
[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]

Varget 22.2 300 meters:
[IMG][/IMG]
Varget 22.2 500 Meters:
[IMG][/IMG]
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  #41  
Old 06-17-2018, 12:51 PM
HW223 HW223 is offline
 
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What happens when you use a 6 ppc with a 1.3 grain spread and all the bullets go in the same hole ?
Does that mess up the pressure theory ?
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  #42  
Old 06-17-2018, 01:16 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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Originally Posted by HW223 View Post
What happens when you use a 6 ppc with a 1.3 grain spread and all the bullets go in the same hole ?
Does that mess up the pressure theory ?
It means that you have very good node, as I explained, so as long as you do not have too much pressure you can load wherever it works best, at 500 meters, on a given day.
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  #43  
Old 06-17-2018, 03:43 PM
LongBomber LongBomber is offline
 
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Originally Posted by lclund1946 View Post
It means that you have very good node, as I explained, so as long as you do not have too much pressure you can load wherever it works best, at 500 meters, on a given day.
Out of curiosity what would your es/sd numbers look like if you put together all ten shots from the 21.9 and 22.0 5 shot groups?
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  #44  
Old 06-17-2018, 04:46 PM
HW223 HW223 is offline
 
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It means that you have very good node, as I explained, so as long as you do not have too much pressure you can load wherever it works best, at 500 meters, on a given day.
Problem Is , where it works best is with pressure, we operate over the max load in any loading manual , with no primer flow or case problems. All it’s telling one is the window on the combination , within this set will be another sub set that will cut the cleanest holes resist being pushed around by the wind and dot the best , that’s the real tune
With a tuned rifle the Bullet moves about half as much as an untuned rifle in the wind
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  #45  
Old 06-17-2018, 06:39 PM
Salavee Salavee is offline
 
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Problem Is , where it works best is with pressure, we operate over the max load in any loading manual , with no primer flow or case problems. All it’s telling one is the window on the combination , within this set will be another sub set that will cut the cleanest holes resist being pushed around by the wind and dot the best , that’s the real tune
With a tuned rifle the Bullet moves about half as much as an untuned rifle in the wind
This is interesting. What does a "tuned" rifle have to do with wind deflection ? or are you referring to increased velocity ?
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  #46  
Old 06-17-2018, 09:18 PM
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Nothing to do with velocity , When a rifle is in tune it will shoot through moderate wind with little or no hold and more wind with less hold , if it’s out of tune the Bullet will get pushed around a lot more .we look for a load that has a third to a half Bullet of vertical , if it shoots flat it will get beat up in the wind and likely shots will change zip codes if there’s a push ,loads that have a small bit of vertical don’t get pushed around nearly as much from cross winds.
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  #47  
Old 06-17-2018, 10:19 PM
Salavee Salavee is offline
 
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Nothing to do with velocity , When a rifle is in tune it will shoot through moderate wind with little or no hold and more wind with less hold , if it’s out of tune the Bullet will get pushed around a lot more .we look for a load that has a third to a half Bullet of vertical , if it shoots flat it will get beat up in the wind and likely shots will change zip codes if there’s a push ,loads that have a small bit of vertical don’t get pushed around nearly as much from cross winds.
Ok, but I'm still confused, A bullet begins to drop from the line of the bore the instant it leaves the muzzle. It will cross the line of sight twice.
Where does the " third to half bullet of vertical" come in to play .. on an axis, like "pitch" ? How do you build vertical in to a load ?
Wind deflection is dependant on a bullets BC, wind velocity, wind angle and and time of bullet flight AFIK.
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  #48  
Old 06-18-2018, 09:51 AM
HW223 HW223 is offline
 
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Ok, but I'm still confused, A bullet begins to drop from the line of the bore the instant it leaves the muzzle. It will cross the line of sight twice.
Where does the " third to half bullet of vertical" come in to play .. on an axis, like "pitch" ? How do you build vertical in to a load ?
Wind deflection is dependant on a bullets BC, wind velocity, wind angle and and time of bullet flight AFIK.
Tune is dynamic and changes throughout the day, so far no one that I know of has figured out what the cause is or why the tune changes but it does, we think it’s some how related to atmospheric conditions but it’s not linear so it’s very hard to pin down. That’s why some days the pet “go to “ load shoots and others it’s a pig , very common a rifle shoots lights out in the morning and then seems broken in the afternoon,
When competing we look for a group that is small and round they have the best wind resistance , if it shoots small and flat or “loose” it’s going to get killed in the wind , usually going up in the load will fix it .1-.3 grains ,
Tuneing in the node
Really loose .250-.350 load is weak and will be some what wind sensitive , go up in powder
Tighter but flat , you just found the most wind sensitive load there is , go up in powder or take a butt kicking ,
Tight but with a small amount of vertical 1/3rd of a bullet , good place to be good wind resistance all around and easy to shoot ,
Super tight and tiny bullet holes (lucky dog ) tune is right on the edge , best come off it a bit, next group is usually a big one .
According to the math our bullets should go through the paper side ways and really long boat tail pointy bullets should rule , how ever this is far from the case so far ,which seems to suggest there is something missing in the math vs real world scenario
Problem is I compete in the real world so i work with what I see on target not on a note pad
Hope that is of some help , it’s a never ending challenge to sort out , that what makes it interesting
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  #49  
Old 06-18-2018, 10:17 AM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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Originally Posted by LongBomber View Post
Out of curiosity what would your es/sd numbers look like if you put together all ten shots from the 21.9 and 22.0 5 shot groups?
I will try and put together 5 shots at 21.9 and 5 at 22.0 and find the answer to your question. I suspect the ES and SD would be much the same as shown on target #2 that I posted as they are right in the middle of the node which is very flat from 21.7 grains to 22.2 grains. In fact on a very hot day they may well have single digit SD and be the tuned load for that temp. On a cool day the 22.2 grain load is the "tuned" but not "Fine tuned" load as I do not run varmint loads with the Berger's jammed into the lands. If you look at the ladder I posted all of shots from 21.7 to 22.2 had 0.304" vertical Edge to Edge or 0.100" which is the 1/2 bullet vertical that HW223 is alluding to. I feel this is quite good for a CZ 527 Varmint rifle/cartridge, without the benefit of a good front/rear rest, and the 300/500meter groups proved that this node is more than adequate for coyotes to 500 yards which is the intended use.

Another benefit to this load is that it is not at max pressure as Remington FL sized brass is just beginning to fireform to the chamber and primers are well rounded with just a bit of flow into the CZ firing pin hole. The Remington FL case holds 22.5 grains of Varget, with the bullet seated, so this is a near perfect load with 98.66 % load density. Perhaps I could find a Higher Pressure node, as suggested by HW223, if I "Neck Sized" the brass and worked up to a compressed load but I am not going to run excessive pressures to do it. Perhaps I cannot put all of the bullets in the same hole but my method of working up loads with a "pressure Ladder" works well for my varmint rifle. HW 223 is trying to lure me into another ****ing contest but it isn't going to work and if he posts the bullet he is running and at what velocity the numbers will be in my favor at 500 yards. Likely the groups as well!
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  #50  
Old 06-18-2018, 10:27 AM
Salavee Salavee is offline
 
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Originally Posted by HW223 View Post
Tune is dynamic and changes throughout the day, so far no one that I know of has figured out what the cause is or why the tune changes but it does, we think it’s some how related to atmospheric conditions but it’s not linear so it’s very hard to pin down. That’s why some days the pet “go to “ load shoots and others it’s a pig , very common a rifle shoots lights out in the morning and then seems broken in the afternoon,
When competing we look for a group that is small and round they have the best wind resistance , if it shoots small and flat or “loose” it’s going to get killed in the wind , usually going up in the load will fix it .1-.3 grains ,
Tuneing in the node
Really loose .250-.350 load is weak and will be some what wind sensitive , go up in powder
Tighter but flat , you just found the most wind sensitive load there is , go up in powder or take a butt kicking ,
Tight but with a small amount of vertical 1/3rd of a bullet , good place to be good wind resistance all around and easy to shoot ,
Super tight and tiny bullet holes (lucky dog ) tune is right on the edge , best come off it a bit, next group is usually a big one .
According to the math our bullets should go through the paper side ways and really long boat tail pointy bullets should rule , how ever this is far from the case so far ,which seems to suggest there is something missing in the math vs real world scenario
Problem is I compete in the real world so i work with what I see on target not on a note pad
Hope that is of some help , it’s a never ending challenge to sort out , that what makes it interesting
Skull cramps are setting in so I'll have to take your word for it. Thanks for the clarification.
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  #51  
Old 06-18-2018, 11:01 AM
HW223 HW223 is offline
 
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[QUOTE=lclund1946;3800347]I will try and put together 5 shots at 21.9 and 5 at 22.0 and find the answer to your question. I suspect the ES and SD would be much the same as shown on target #2 that I posted as they are right in the middle of the node which is very flat from 21.7 grains to 22.2 grains. In fact on a very hot day they may well have single digit SD and be the tuned load for that temp. On a cool day the 22.2 grain load is the "tuned" but not "Fine tuned" load as I do not run varmint loads with the Berger's jammed into the lands. If you look at the ladder I posted all of shots from 21.7 to 22.2 had 0.304" vertical Edge to Edge or 0.100" which is the 1/2 bullet vertical that HW223 is alluding to. I feel this is quite good for a CZ 527 Varmint rifle/cartridge, without the benefit of a good front/rear rest, and the 300/500meter groups proved that this node is more than adequate for coyotes to 500 yards which is the intended use.

Another benefit to this load is that it is not at max pressure as Remington FL sized brass is just beginning to fireform to the chamber and primers are well rounded with just a bit of flow into the CZ firing pin hole. The Remington FL case holds 22.5 grains of Varget, with the bullet seated, so this is a near perfect load with 98.66 % load density. Perhaps I could find a Higher Pressure node, as suggested by HW223, if I "Neck Sized" the brass and worked up to a compressed load but I am not going to run excessive pressures to do it. Perhaps I cannot put all of the bullets in the same hole but my method of working up loads with a "pressure Ladder" works well for my varmint rifle. HW 223 is trying to lure me into another ****ing contest but it isn't going to work and if he posts the bullet he is running and at what velocity the numbers will be in my favor at 500 yards. Likely the groups as well![/QUOTE
There is a very easy method for load development in Tony Boyer’s book , IT IS NOT INTENDED AND DOES NOT WORK FOR 1000 yard stuff , does work very well out to around 600
if your happy with your method carry on ,shoot what ever node you like ,there is a shoot in July , all are welcome , come and shoot or outfit someone with a rig and send them and we will see how the groups fair on target regardless of the “numbers “ I welcome the challenge
The internet is a wonderful tool for information , and disinformation that’s why there are competitions , it separates the two
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  #52  
Old 06-18-2018, 12:01 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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[QUOTE=HW223;3800365]
Quote:
Originally Posted by lclund1946 View Post
I will try and put together 5 shots at 21.9 and 5 at 22.0 and find the answer to your question. I suspect the ES and SD would be much the same as shown on target #2 that I posted as they are right in the middle of the node which is very flat from 21.7 grains to 22.2 grains. In fact on a very hot day they may well have single digit SD and be the tuned load for that temp. On a cool day the 22.2 grain load is the "tuned" but not "Fine tuned" load as I do not run varmint loads with the Berger's jammed into the lands. If you look at the ladder I posted all of shots from 21.7 to 22.2 had 0.304" vertical Edge to Edge or 0.100" which is the 1/2 bullet vertical that HW223 is alluding to. I feel this is quite good for a CZ 527 Varmint rifle/cartridge, without the benefit of a good front/rear rest, and the 300/500meter groups proved that this node is more than adequate for coyotes to 500 yards which is the intended use.

Another benefit to this load is that it is not at max pressure as Remington FL sized brass is just beginning to fireform to the chamber and primers are well rounded with just a bit of flow into the CZ firing pin hole. The Remington FL case holds 22.5 grains of Varget, with the bullet seated, so this is a near perfect load with 98.66 % load density. Perhaps I could find a Higher Pressure node, as suggested by HW223, if I "Neck Sized" the brass and worked up to a compressed load but I am not going to run excessive pressures to do it. Perhaps I cannot put all of the bullets in the same hole but my method of working up loads with a "pressure Ladder" works well for my varmint rifle. HW 223 is trying to lure me into another ****ing contest but it isn't going to work and if he posts the bullet he is running and at what velocity the numbers will be in my favor at 500 yards. Likely the groups as well![/QUOTE
There is a very easy method for load development in Tony Boyer’s book , IT IS NOT INTENDED AND DOES NOT WORK FOR 1000 yard stuff , does work very well out to around 600
if your happy with your method carry on ,shoot what ever node you like ,there is a shoot in July , all are welcome , come and shoot or outfit someone with a rig and send them and we will see how the groups fair on target regardless of the “numbers “ I welcome the challenge
The internet is a wonderful tool for information , and disinformation that’s why there are competitions , it separates the two
Ask duceman who and what won the JW Varmint Agg this past weekend. Perhaps someone will be at your shoot with this exact same load in a 20 EXTREME but it won't be me.
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  #53  
Old 06-18-2018, 12:37 PM
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[QUOTE=lclund1946;3800385][QUOTE=HW223;3800365]

Ask duceman who and what won the JW Varmint Agg this past weekend. Perhaps someone will be at your shoot with this exact same load in a 20 EXTREME but it won't be me

That would be awesome ! Competition breeds excelence
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  #54  
Old 06-18-2018, 03:27 PM
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[QUOTE=lclund1946;3800385]
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Originally Posted by HW223 View Post

Ask duceman who and what won the JW Varmint Agg this past weekend. Perhaps someone will be at your shoot with this exact same load in a 20 EXTREME but it won't be me.
What is the JW Varmint Agg? Any details re: distances / groups or score?
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Old 06-19-2018, 10:18 AM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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[QUOTE=260 Rem;3800515]
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Originally Posted by lclund1946 View Post
What is the JW Varmint Agg? Any details re: distances / groups or score?
Duceman runs what I think they call the Team JW shoot near Blakie, AB. He has an awesome range to 500 Meters and was expecting over 40 competitors last weekend. It looks like a fun shoot and you may want to get on the mailing list for next year so contact him for information.

Tchardy1972 informed me that he won the Varmint aggregate with scoring hits to 500 Meters in spite of terrible conditions. He was shooting his 20 EXTREME with 55 Bergers, likely in LC Reformed brass that I gave him a couple of years ago, and I believe he is using Ramshot Tac which gives him slightly less velocity than Varget as shown on these targets shot with my rifle.
The LC brass holds less powder than the Remington brass so runs slightly less powder to find the tuned spot, much like the Lapua Match brass, but still within my "Pressure Node" that produces "Safe in all rifle loads".
Lake City REF brass:
[IMG][/IMG]
Lapua Brass:
[IMG][/IMG]
The long 55 Berger fits in a Saami Length 223 Mag when seated to the lands:
[IMG][/IMG]
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  #56  
Old 06-19-2018, 11:18 AM
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shoot was fun and extremely challenging in rain and high wind conditions right up till we finished
i suspect that travis would have well with what ever gun you put in his hands had he had time to practice and get used to it; he is an accomplished shooter and a pretty good wind reader. sighter target also helps to get a bearing on the wind.
these are a couple groups i shot on sunday in the same calm that i shot your 20 in; using my 6x47 remington and 68 gr bergers at 300m.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_1832.jpg (57.6 KB, 16 views)
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1. People who list their arguments in bullets points or numerical order generally come off as condescending pecker heads.

2. #1 is true.
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Old 06-19-2018, 02:18 PM
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500 m
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1. People who list their arguments in bullets points or numerical order generally come off as condescending pecker heads.

2. #1 is true.
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Old 06-20-2018, 11:27 AM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duceman View Post
shoot was fun and extremely challenging in rain and high wind conditions right up till we finished
i suspect that travis would have well with what ever gun you put in his hands had he had time to practice and get used to it; he is an accomplished shooter and a pretty good wind reader. sighter target also helps to get a bearing on the wind.
these are a couple groups i shot on sunday in the same calm that i shot your 20 in; using my 6x47 remington and 68 gr bergers at 300m.
Your 6x47 is shooting great. What velocity are you running the 68 Bergers at? There were rumors that the 6.5 X 47 fell out of favor with the BR crowd as it was finicky to tune. Looks like you have the 68 Berger tuned great for varmint shooting to 500 M. May have to fine tune the 55 Berger in my 20 for hot days as you were shooting the 22.2 grain Varget load which works a bit better on cooler days. Hope to try 21.0 & 22.0 grains on a 30 +Celsius day and compare to the 22.1 & 22.2 grain load.

We had a great gopher shoot after leaving your place but I wound up with another mild heart attack when I got back so spent a few days in the Red Deer hospital. Last Friday morning a couple of nurses that were monitoring my heart came bursting into the room at about 6:30 AM, screeched to a halt, and looked at me with a funny look on their faces. I said, "you guys are making enough noise to wake the dead" and they replied, "you were flat line", so I guess I was right.
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  #59  
Old 06-20-2018, 12:27 PM
duceman duceman is offline
 
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lol. good to hear you are still typing.....
i have no idea what velocity they are running; show no pressure across the board; and shoot great.
i spend more time shooting and correcting results than analyzing the crap out of things any more; with the exception of things that really matter; pressure; brass life; accuracy.
to be clear; my gun is a 6x47 remington; 222mag necked up, lee
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1. People who list their arguments in bullets points or numerical order generally come off as condescending pecker heads.

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  #60  
Old 06-21-2018, 01:54 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LongBomber View Post
Out of curiosity what would your es/sd numbers look like if you put together all ten shots from the 21.9 and 22.0 5 shot groups?
Got out to the range to test the 21.9 - 22.2 grain loads at 28 Celsius. As I suspected the 21.9/22.0 ten shot Group B had much the same ES/SD as the individual groups I first shot although velocity was up. The 22.2 grain load had an increase in ES/Sd and is more suited to temperatures lower than 14 Celsius.
[IMG][/IMG]

The 22.0 and 22.1 grain loads proved to have the lowest ES and SD and are best suited to hot days 22 - 30 Celsius. Another thing to note is that all four loads shot very close to the same point of impact which was indicated by this node in my Pressure Ladder.
[IMG][/IMG]
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