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  #91  
Old 06-14-2013, 04:19 PM
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Won't take the bet huh? C'mon take the friggen bet, put your money where your mouth is.
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  #92  
Old 06-14-2013, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote View Post
Ehuntr, I'm pretty fun after a few coronas and some vino eh?

Potty, u r almost there, The last step is simply realizing in the name of hunting...these things u r calling advantages r actually just differences and the compound has it's own apparent advantages but when they hunt together...just differences. Almost there boys....I can taste it!
Stinky , The difference is one is a bow and the other a XGUN !!

Xgun = Xgendre ( has it's place in General season, but in the Archery season)




That taste you got buddy, is all wrong...lol
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  #93  
Old 06-14-2013, 08:50 PM
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Won't take the bet huh? C'mon take the friggen bet, put your money where your mouth is.
No need chef, do some homework, my mouth runs this way because I did tons of research on he subject years ago. It's a win argument for me, u can come up with all sorts or scenarios and make bets but u can't get around the fact they r the same in the field. Ie; there is data like this echoing all over the place where they play together. This was one year studied in ohio...

"Of the 155,000 archery participants, 70,000 used a crossbow, 55,000 use a vertical bow and 30,000 used both. Of seniors who apply for and receive a free license, 4,000 used a crossbow, 1,000 used a vertical bow and 1,000 used both. Success rates for 2001 were identical for crossbow hunters and vertical bow hunters at 14%."

All these deflections, perceived advantages etc. R simply hot air....reality is another matter. It's a bow in the name of hunting. They rarely get away from 1 to 2% of each other in percentage stats.

But it's still a couple months to hunt time, I do believe we all have better things to do than see if one guy can kill a deer with a crossbow before a compound guy...like...kinda pales in comparison to just one year in Ohio studied for exactly the sort of info u r looking for. There is only one main reason to keep it out...it's very selfish driven.

U see chef, when I first heard about this I had the knee jerk reaction many do...no effin way. But silly me and my open mind, decided to learn the full story...there we r, I can't unlearn it, there is no going back...it's a bow. Alberta can disallow it anywhere sensitive, late season sheep, or antelope, or whatever but the majority of our bow seasons maybe all...the percentage to users will run moot between compounds/crossbows so more tool options equals more people have a choice that suits them better...it's only about that, choices. Nothing more. No threat, no problem, no advantage.
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  #94  
Old 06-14-2013, 11:42 PM
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No need chef, do some homework, my mouth runs this way because I did tons of research on he subject years ago. It's a win argument for me, u can come up with all sorts or scenarios and make bets but u can't get around the fact they r the same in the field. Ie; there is data like this echoing all over the place where they play together. This was one year studied in ohio...

"Of the 155,000 archery participants, 70,000 used a crossbow, 55,000 use a vertical bow and 30,000 used both. Of seniors who apply for and receive a free license, 4,000 used a crossbow, 1,000 used a vertical bow and 1,000 used both. Success rates for 2001 were identical for crossbow hunters and vertical bow hunters at 14%."

All these deflections, perceived advantages etc. R simply hot air....reality is another matter. It's a bow in the name of hunting. They rarely get away from 1 to 2% of each other in percentage stats.

But it's still a couple months to hunt time, I do believe we all have better things to do than see if one guy can kill a deer with a crossbow before a compound guy...like...kinda pales in comparison to just one year in Ohio studied for exactly the sort of info u r looking for. There is only one main reason to keep it out...it's very selfish driven.

U see chef, when I first heard about this I had the knee jerk reaction many do...no effin way. But silly me and my open mind, decided to learn the full story...there we r, I can't unlearn it, there is no going back...it's a bow. Alberta can disallow it anywhere sensitive, late season sheep, or antelope, or whatever but the majority of our bow seasons maybe all...the percentage to users will run moot between compounds/crossbows so more tool options equals more people have a choice that suits them better...it's only about that, choices. Nothing more. No threat, no problem, no advantage.
So you think that Ohio is the best, for making a case study??

- Majority of the state runs on a 4 deer bag limit (70% approx.)
- Urban area's have a 6 deer bag limit

- Muzzleloader season Jan 4 - Jan 7
- Rifle season Dec 2 - Dec 8
- Archery season Sept 28 - Feb 2

- The ONLY big game animal in Ohio to hunt is Whitetail
( definitely not the Big game Diversity Alberta offers)

In 2008, Ohio xgun hunters harvested a record 42,292 whitetails. That's just over 18% . Rifle guys had approx 50% , and bowhunters maintained their average of 14% .

- For those who don't know Ohio is, just east of the great lakes.

- Other than Wyoming, there is no state that has a xgun season west of the Texas meridian. ( probably because of the animal diversity)



Ohio population : 11.45 Million
Alberta Pop : 3.7 Million

Ohio hunting Lic sold: 522,000 ( 2010)
Alberta hunting Lic sold: 111,000 (2012)

The propaganda , that xguns will recruit more new and none hunters is mostly a farse. While I'm sure a small amount might occur, a majority of new xgun hunters, will not be " new " hunters. It will just become a number shift.


So is Ohio really the best case study, for Alberta??? Especially with the Big game diversity, the lengthy rifle season and open spaces we have? I think NOT !

After similar ballistics among mid range xguns and bows. Those ballistic similarities are not enough to say they the are the same. Not being a gun guy, but im sure I could find similar senerio's in the firearm world, if I searched.
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  #95  
Old 06-15-2013, 02:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote View Post
Ehuntr, I'm pretty fun after a few coronas and some vino eh?

Potty, u r almost there, The last step is simply realizing in the name of hunting...these things u r calling advantages r actually just differences and the compound has it's own apparent advantages but when they hunt together...just differences. Almost there boys....I can taste it!
Stunky, I was quite amused at your mix ups. At times I don't know if you realize potty and ehuntr are two different people lol. You seem mix up who said what frequently. I suspected a mind altering substance was at play.

The differences and advantages thing. Man you are messed up, does your Mommy know you drink? It was I who brought it up. A difference is not an advantage nor disadvantage until it is measured. It is apparent that you are disadvantaged by using english to describe your thoughts. Either that or I call every one of your posts a TROLL. Hey, did you know that you can spill your drink if you inadvertently hit a twig with your glass or jerk your bottle?
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It's a choice, not the most versatile choice but a choice, don't catch a twig in flight or jerk the trigger
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  #96  
Old 06-15-2013, 02:27 AM
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There is only one main reason to keep it out...it's very selfish driven.
I'll debunk that now as I have before and will continue to destroy that allegation.

Those who want crossbows to be included in the archery season are in fact greedy. Archers encourage other archers to join them in picking up a bow and go hunting. No one denies that. It's along the lines of girl guides wanting to join the boy scouts and complaining when they get turned down. It's not enough they have a club of their own, they want the other one too. Man those boys are selfish!

Stunky. Hunt with a crossbow, I know you'll love it.
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  #97  
Old 06-15-2013, 05:05 PM
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Im glad I drive a Toyota [Chevy/ford debate...agnostic on religion .....and open to all politics but don't believe any of them....because like this thread...there will never be an agreement other than the right to disagree...
JMHO
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  #98  
Old 06-16-2013, 12:28 AM
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Ehntr, wtf r u going on about? I only had a few bruhaws during the game and fights but u were clearly mixing it up! And ya think I'm coming here during serious time? ....playtime only

Oh and I beg to differ on the traditional gear being most versatile, sure u can shoot quicker than compound but to what distances?, compound blends good stuff from traditional gear with good stuff from crossbow capability....the compound is versatility king, if only a 30yrd game then maybe give it up to the trad gear....but the compound likely has double the effective range of trad gear.

I can see the potential large scale change (emphasis on potential) if crossbow included with big shift in existing rifle hunters moving over. I can see then decision makers shying away from it as could bring a fair bit of change to accommodate? Ie work they dont want to do. I'm still a believer, I'd rather see a majority of hunters period using some form of bow. Whatever it takes, let it in and manage away. Start with bow zones and grow more wand bigger bow zone around the centers...all good. It certainly has way more ramifications to managing than it does differences in tool capability on game. I'm stuck on the logic of the tool, it should be weened into where it fits and utilized better. It's just a bow, seems more like a thing of too much work to implement at this point so not worth doing, logic be damned.

And potty did admit it's more hunter than tool, that's what i referenced to being almost there, just differences vs perceived advantages all that's left.
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  #99  
Old 06-16-2013, 02:44 AM
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Ehntr, wtf r u going on about? I only had a few bruhaws during the game and fights but u were clearly mixing it up! And ya think I'm coming here during serious time? ....playtime only

Oh and I beg to differ on the traditional gear being most versatile, sure u can shoot quicker than compound but to what distances?, compound blends good stuff from traditional gear with good stuff from crossbow capability....the compound is versatility king, if only a 30yrd game then maybe give it up to the trad gear....but the compound likely has double the effective range of trad gear.

I can see the potential large scale change (emphasis on potential) if crossbow included with big shift in existing rifle hunters moving over. I can see then decision makers shying away from it as could bring a fair bit of change to accommodate? Ie work they dont want to do. I'm still a believer, I'd rather see a majority of hunters period using some form of bow. Whatever it takes, let it in and manage away. Start with bow zones and grow more wand bigger bow zone around the centers...all good. It certainly has way more ramifications to managing than it does differences in tool capability on game. I'm stuck on the logic of the tool, it should be weened into where it fits and utilized better. It's just a bow, seems more like a thing of too much work to implement at this point so not worth doing, logic be damned.

And potty did admit it's more hunter than tool, that's what i referenced to being almost there, just differences vs perceived advantages all that's left.
Admit? Hey stinky, don't try to take credit for something I've always preached. .... its not about ballistics my friend. There's way more to it than what your saying. And. Yes some of us are better hunters than others and that's our advantages.


Post # 94 is directed at you buddy.
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  #100  
Old 06-16-2013, 09:54 PM
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Gotcha, I'm on it...

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showth...kills-with-one

A quick google turns up this real quick...good read from hunters in BC where crossbow allowed and many guys who hunt with them along with compounds and recurves giving opinion to the question on the tools effectiveness.

So of the provinces in Canada that run the crossbow as just another bow we have;

BC
Ontario
NWT
Quebec (most zones)
PEI
Nunavet
Nova Scotia

And just like in the bazillion states they r allowed, and the provinces they r allowed...they r just another bow.....yet somehow Alberta will be impacted so hugely they shouldn't be allowed? Total crock potty, like BC doesn't have really diverse game and terrain etc. Don't get me wrong, pretty awesome province but we somehow we r so fragile and extra special diverse that the crossbow becomes some evil mass killing machine? Just can't buy into to that potty. One of the provinces with caribou down east won't allow the use of crossbow on caribou...everything else yes...anyhow, just an example, worried about antelope or sheep? Don't use em there if concern...so not like there aren't plenty of ways or species this tool can't fit in no sweat....but they got muleys, elk and sheep in BC and listen to what their own guys with actual hunt experience say in thread above...I remember reading same stuff everywhere they play together...it's just another bow option.
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  #101  
Old 06-17-2013, 09:12 AM
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Gotcha, I'm on it...

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showth...kills-with-one

A quick google turns up this real quick...good read from hunters in BC where crossbow allowed and many guys who hunt with them along with compounds and recurves giving opinion to the question on the tools effectiveness.

So of the provinces in Canada that run the crossbow as just another bow we have;

BC
Ontario
NWT
Quebec (most zones)
PEI
Nunavet
Nova Scotia

And just like in the bazillion states they r allowed, and the provinces they r allowed...they r just another bow.....yet somehow Alberta will be impacted so hugely they shouldn't be allowed? Total crock potty, like BC doesn't have really diverse game and terrain etc. Don't get me wrong, pretty awesome province but we somehow we r so fragile and extra special diverse that the crossbow becomes some evil mass killing machine? Just can't buy into to that potty. One of the provinces with caribou down east won't allow the use of crossbow on caribou...everything else yes...anyhow, just an example, worried about antelope or sheep? Don't use em there if concern...so not like there aren't plenty of ways or species this tool can't fit in no sweat....but they got muleys, elk and sheep in BC and listen to what their own guys with actual hunt experience say in thread above...I remember reading same stuff everywhere they play together...it's just another bow option.
Wait! Why don't they use them for caribou? Why not use them on sheep and antelope , if concerned?

Why? What's the concern? What's the reason?

I think you just proved my point! ..........Extra advantages...... That's why. ...thx


And again, just from a quick glance at the BC regs, it looks like they got some pretty short bow seasons. Defiantly not close to Alberta's lengths..... Essentially buddy, your saying you would be ok with a reduced archery season, just to include a xgun. Like your examples of Ohio and Bc.... Do you read their regs before you use them as examples??

Nothing out there is like Alberta
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  #102  
Old 06-17-2013, 09:50 AM
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Wait! Why don't they use them for caribou? Why not use them on sheep and antelope , if concerned?

Why? What's the concern? What's the reason?

I think you just proved my point! ..........Extra advantages...... That's why. ...thx


And again, just from a quick glance at the BC regs, it looks like they got some pretty short bow seasons. Defiantly not close to Alberta's lengths..... Essentially buddy, your saying you would be ok with a reduced archery season, just to include a xgun. Like your examples of Ohio and Bc.... Do you read their regs before you use them as examples??

Nothing out there is like Alberta
Potty,

They are just tools, the operator of the tool will dictate the outcome of the hunt..

As we all know, skill of the operator is near 95% or better of the success rate of archery / stick slinging.

If you look at most regions that introduced the crossbow in archery season, the first couple years show and increase in participation but later the number level off to where they originally were..

Simply a craze where some will jump on the band wagon and soon realize that this tool don't provide them a slam dunk and move on..

Increased opportunity may help preserve our passion and voice when it comes to our community.. Here is where I see the advantage, not a disadvantage.
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  #103  
Old 06-17-2013, 10:06 AM
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Potty,

They are just tools, the operator of the tool will dictate the outcome of the hunt..

As we all know, skill of the operator is near 95% or better of the success rate of archery / stick slinging.

If you look at most regions that introduced the crossbow in archery season, the first couple years show and increase in participation but later the number level off to where they originally were..

Simply a craze where some will jump on the band wagon and soon realize that this tool don't provide them a slam dunk and move on..

Increased opportunity may help preserve our passion and voice when it comes to our community.. Here is where I see the advantage, not a disadvantage.
Very well said
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  #104  
Old 06-17-2013, 10:31 AM
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Potty,

They are just tools, the operator of the tool will dictate the outcome of the hunt..

As we all know, skill of the operator is near 95% or better of the success rate of archery / stick slinging.

I've always said that too! , no problems there.

If you look at most regions that introduced the crossbow in archery season, the first couple years show and increase in participation but later the number level off to where they originally were..

Got any examples? With actual facts?

Simply a craze where some will jump on the band wagon and soon realize that this tool don't provide them a slam dunk and move on..

Increased opportunity may help preserve our passion and voice when it comes to our community.. Here is where I see the advantage, not a disadvantage.

How? There isn't a recruitment problem of bowhunters in Alberta, unlike some of the other states that implemented xguns.
The argument here is nothing more than....A xgun is not a bow and doesn't belong in the archery season!

Archery/ Bow is defined as implements that are held by hand, drawn by hand and released by the motion of the hand in the presence of game. If you are shooting a xgun, you are not drawing the string in the presence of game. . It is not bowhunting
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  #105  
Old 06-17-2013, 10:42 AM
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The argument here is nothing more than....A xgun is not a bow and doesn't belong in the archery season!

Archery/ Bow is defined as implements that are held by hand, drawn by hand and released by the motion of the hand in the presence of game. If you are shooting a xgun, you are not drawing the string in the presence of game. . It is not bowhunting
Not very well said
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  #106  
Old 06-17-2013, 10:49 AM
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Potty,

If you look at most regions that introduced the crossbow in archery season, the first couple years show and increase in participation but later the number level off to where they originally were..

.


Ohio Harvest stats

2005-............33658

2006-.............38489

2007-.............42292

2008-............46480

2009-............49065

Other states are all showing comparable harvest stats. which I can provide!

Which leads the question....

Are the harvest numbers by xgun hunters increasing, in the usa, especially according to stats in the last 6 years... Because, (a) the weapon has serious advantages? or (b) Is there a substantial increase in xgun hunters?
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  #107  
Old 06-17-2013, 11:04 AM
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Ohio Harvest stats

2005-............33658

2006-.............38489

2007-.............42292

2008-............46480

2009-............49065

Other states are all showing comparable harvest stats. which I can provide!

Which leads the question....

Are the harvest numbers by xgun hunters increasing, in the usa, especially according to stats in the last 6 years... Because, (a) the weapon has serious advantages? or (b) Is there a substantial increase in xgun hunters?
Nope just an increase in archery in general thus the increase in harvest
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  #108  
Old 06-17-2013, 11:18 AM
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Nope just an increase in archery in general thus the increase in harvest
those are only Xgun stats, no other archery included! Nice try!
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  #109  
Old 06-17-2013, 11:26 AM
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those are only Xgun stats, no other archery included! Nice try!
Ahhh crossbow success rates very impressive, they must have an influx of deer like we have gophers in southern Alberta
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  #110  
Old 06-17-2013, 11:33 AM
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Ohio Harvest stats

2005-............33658

2006-.............38489

2007-.............42292

2008-............46480

2009-............49065

Other states are all showing comparable harvest stats. which I can provide!

Which leads the question....

Are the harvest numbers by xgun hunters increasing, in the usa, especially according to stats in the last 6 years... Because, (a) the weapon has serious advantages? or (b) Is there a substantial increase in xgun hunters?
Hey Man,

I hope you realize that crossbows have been legal in Ohio's archery season since 1984...

Ohio averages about the same rate of harvests from the stick and string crowd to the bolt people...

You will always have the same amount of any participants, it is a matter of a simply shift of weapon if available.

P.S. I must add, obviously the advantage of each weapon is in the skill of the holder as the harvest rates between both are almost identical

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  #111  
Old 06-17-2013, 12:01 PM
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Hey Man,

I hope you realize that crossbows have been legal in Ohio's archery season since 1984...

Ohio averages about the same rate of harvests from the stick and string crowd to the bolt people...

You will always have the same amount of any participants, it is a matter of a simply shift of weapon if available.

P.S. I must add, obviously the advantage of each weapon is in the skill of the holder as the harvest rates between both are almost identical
xgun bow % difference

2005-............33658 26432 12%

2006-.............38489 29423 14%

2007-.............42292 36347 8%

2008-............46480 39376 10%

2009-............49065 42481 6%

Those don't look like almost identical stats to me.... That's straight from their stats. Those are % that I would deem almost identical!
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  #112  
Old 06-17-2013, 12:08 PM
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xgun bow % difference

2005-............33658 26432 12%

2006-.............38489 29423 14%

2007-.............42292 36347 8%

2008-............46480 39376 10%

2009-............49065 42481 6%

Those don't look like almost identical stats to me.... That's straight from their stats. Those are % that I would deem almost identical!
Crossbows are more popular it seems
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  #113  
Old 06-17-2013, 12:16 PM
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those are only Xgun stats, no other archery included! Nice try!
once again potty. Stop using your self initiated 'xgun' moniker. Have some respect for the guys that do use the weapon.

Should we start using a description such as assisted bow when describing a compound?
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  #114  
Old 06-17-2013, 12:20 PM
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xgun bow % difference

2005-............33658 26432 12%

2006-.............38489 29423 14%

2007-.............42292 36347 8%

2008-............46480 39376 10%

2009-............49065 42481 6%

Those don't look like almost identical stats to me.... That's straight from their stats. Those are % that I would deem almost identical!
The stats you post show an average 10% increase in cross bow harvest vs. bows.. Very close ( almost identical ) as we do not know the actual numbers for both...

Assuming what you have preached on how much easier the cross bows are to pick up and hunt with, I assumed a slight increase in cross bow hunters than bows..

If this cross bow device has such an advantage over what you classify as archery gear, I would think the numbers would reflect this, it does not.
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  #115  
Old 06-17-2013, 12:44 PM
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Potty some stats to look at in regards to the information you refer too..

Ohio Paid Deer 2006:

Total Vertical Bow 115,000
Total Crossbow 140,000

This does not include land owner tag data.

The stats you post indicate a 14 % increase in crossbow harvest, the difference is 21% more used this device while a field.

Another interesting point is the recovery rate 1998 - 2006 in Ohio shows.. The rate of deer shot and recovered at field with vertical bows and crossbows to be the same at 82% ( +/- 2.5 % )

I still fail so see where the crossbow would have such a negative effect if allowed in archery season ?
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  #116  
Old 06-17-2013, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Sledhead71 View Post
The stats you post show an average 10% increase in cross bow harvest vs. bows.. Very close ( almost identical ) as we do not know the actual numbers for both...

Assuming what you have preached on how much easier the cross bows are to pick up and hunt with, I assumed a slight increase in cross bow hunters than bows..

If this cross bow device has such an advantage over what you classify as archery gear, I would think the numbers would reflect this, it does not.
2006

140,000 XGuns hunters (rounded)

115,000 Bowhunters (rounded)
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Old 06-17-2013, 12:46 PM
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pottymouth pottymouth is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Sledhead71 View Post
Potty some stats to look at in regards to the information you refer too..

Ohio Paid Deer 2006:

Total Vertical Bow 115,000
Total Crossbow 140,000

This does not include land owner tag data.

Another interesting point is the recovery rate 1998 - 2006 in Ohio shows.. The rate of deer shot and recovered at field with vertical bows and crossbows to be the same at 82% ( +/- 2.5 % )

I still fail so see where the crossbow would have such a negative effect if allowed in archery season ?
Look at the length of seson in Ohio. I posted it earlier in this thread.

There are numerous reasons. Just read all the Xgun threads.
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  #118  
Old 06-17-2013, 12:55 PM
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58thecat 58thecat is offline
 
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I still fail so see where the crossbow would have such a negative effect if allowed in archery season ?[/QUOTE]

They wouldn't just a few not impressed but they would get over it. Imagine how the traditional purest bow hunter feels, they accepted compounds or not but all moved on and its a commin'
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Old 06-17-2013, 01:10 PM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showth...kills-with-one

It's only 4 pages, any comment potty? A guy asked the difference and if any advantage and to please not start a war about it....and he got answers from quite a few who hunt with or have hunted with all the bows we r talking about. These r guys who live it and what do they say? It's just another bow option, nothing more, no smoke and mirrors.

It shows also what is common knowledge, initial influx of users first couple years, then tapers off back to usual as the uneducated learn for themselves u have to bowhunt to kill stuff with one....just a different type of bow.

And as u see the theme echo'd from the BC guys...not a bad tool for stand/blind hunting but cumbersome and awkward for spot and stock hunting where many choose the compound as clear winner there and r u not alway saying the spot and stock they r the big threat? Elk, muley etc? What do we do most of blind/stand stuff for anyhow.....deer. Anyhow, u r wrong, we r right.

No threat, Alberta no different. It's just a tool, it's just a bow in the wrong house. On caribou thing, not 100% it was accurate or current info, they just have four maybe five zones where they don't allow it and it seems a mystery why at that....kinda like here lol.
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  #120  
Old 06-17-2013, 01:14 PM
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pottymouth pottymouth is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote View Post
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showth...kills-with-one

It's only 4 pages, any comment potty? A guy asked the difference and if any advantage and to please not start a war about it....and he got answers from quite a few who hunt with or have hunted with all the bows we r talking about. These r guys who live it and what do they say? It's just another bow option, nothing more, no smoke and mirrors.

It shows also what is common knowledge, initial influx of users first couple years, then tapers off back to usual as the uneducated learn for themselves u have to bowhunt to kill stuff with one....just a different type of bow.

And as u see the theme echo'd from the BC guys...not a bad tool for stand/blind hunting but cumbersome and awkward for spot and stock hunting where many choose the compound as clear winner there and r u not alway saying the spot and stock they r the big threat? Elk, muley etc? What do we do most of blind/stand stuff for anyhow.....deer. Anyhow, u r wrong, we r right.
LOL, The best you can do is reference another forum discussion...that's laughable at best !
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