Alberta outfitted hunts

[270person]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Nothing is going to change without new reforms to our draw system and residency requirements
I don’t think I’ll ever hunt an archery antelope or a non trophy antelope
But for $4
You bet I’m applying for myself and everyone else in my group

I agree and am much the same. Still do the annual donation even though I've no clue the hunts will ever come to fruition.

Too bad those priority points weren't going into interest bearing accounts. Maybe reach 10 and collect double your normal return.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

You are taking opportunities away from Albertans to make a buck on the back of others. Selfish, must feel good.

What backs are outfitters making a buck on ? You’ll have to clarify that one for me.
If you get a moose tag every 5.4 years instead of every 5.2 years are you actually claiming that’s causing you a hardship ?
Or one antelope every 12-14 years instead of, ummmm 12-14 years ?

Well over 95% of Alberta’s wildlife is allocated to residents, as it should be. I know I shouldn’t be surprised, but it’s hard to fathom you feel someone being able to feed their family is less important then potentially adding a year, although not likely to your recreational hunting opportunities.

I mean, when you say it out loud to yourself do you still feel right about it ?

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by 270person

Nobody forced you into your career choice.

So because nobody forced me to be an outfitter, you feel better about being a ****ty human ?

Seems and odd way to justify your position?

[reddeerhunter]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

So because nobody forced me to be an outfitter, you feel better about being a ****ty human ?

Seems and odd way to justify your position?

Outfitters sell wildlife. Residents miss out on those opportunities.

Personally I dont care, but I do see how it rubs some guys wrong.


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[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by reddeerhunter

Outfitters sell wildlife. Residents miss out on those opportunities.

Personally I dont care, but I do see how it rubs some guys wrong.


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Wrong
Outfitters just offer the same opportunities that residents have
Just to people who don’t live here
No hunt is guaranteed

[roper1]

Lots of talk about Outfitter v Resident in other threads. Let's start a different one if so inclined & keep this one about rare opportunities for residents!

Thanks

[reddeerhunter]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Wrong
Outfitters just offer the same opportunities that residents have
Just to people who don’t live here
No hunt is guaranteed

Word it however you like. Yankee John dont have to scout and ask for permission. Pay, shoot. Et Voila. And lots of those animals are guaranteed. You should research tag fill %.
Like I said, I get it. I do not care. But I can see how it upsets some.

PM if you wanna keep going.


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[Positrac]

I remember seeing a link in another thread for resident hunts that someone posted but I can’t seem to find it now.

Anyone have a current link to hunts being offered to Residents?

[270person]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

So because nobody forced me to be an outfitter, you feel better about being a ****ty human ?

Seems and odd way to justify your position?

I'm a *****y human because I chose a stable career where you chose one with a myriad of opportunities to potentially go south? You chose it.

Seems an odd way to justify Your position.

Why should I feel worse for you and the ramifications Covid caused than for any other small business owner? You didn't suffer alone pal. In fact you still HAVE a business. A lot more fortunate than many I'd say. No tears forthcoming.

[whitetail Junkie]

Originally Posted by roper1

Lots of talk about Outfitter v Resident in other threads. Let's start a different one if so inclined & keep this one about rare opportunities for residents!

Thanks

My first cousin and I who share the same last name have both been drawn for mountain goat in Alberta...area Q for me in 2012 and O for him in 2018...both got billys ,my cousins was a big one.

[35 whelen]

Originally Posted by whitetail Junkie

My first cousin and I who share the same last name have both been drawn for mountain goat in Alberta...area Q for me in 2012 and O for him in 2018...both got billys ,my cousins was a big one.

?

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[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by 270person

I'm a *****y human because I chose a stable career where you chose one with a myriad of opportunities to potentially go south? You chose it.

Seems an odd way to justify Your position.

Why should I feel worse for you and the ramifications Covid caused than for any other small business owner? You didn't suffer alone pal. In fact you still HAVE a business. A lot more fortunate than many I'd say. No tears forthcoming.

I wasn’t asking or implying you should feel worse, I was saying a decent human would feel compassion for anybody having a difficult time right now. I certainly wasn’t implying you should feel bad for me personally, I was referring to the outfitters that depend on this income solely to feed their families. Don’t get me wrong it’s an inconvenience for us and I’m not happy about it, but we’re pretty diversified industry wise, we’re not going anywhere.

Your original statement said exactly what I was referring to

“TBH I'm finding it real difficult to shed many tears for outfitters and non resident hunters when average Joe resident is waiting 7-14 years to hunt prime antelope, moose, mule deer, etc wmu's in some cases”

You won’t shed a tear as someone loses everything they have because you have to wait 7-14 years for a prime recreational hunting tag. I realize you still won’t get it, but honestly look in the mirror and say it out loud a couple times. “My prime muley hunt is worth more to me then your ability to provide for your family”
If it still sits right with you, refer to my ****ty human comment again !

[fishnguy]

^ Not agreeing or disagreeing with 270 (a neutral comment, if you will), but he is saying there are other ways to provide.

[Positrac]

So let’s call Outfitting/guiding what it is; an industry. Like pretty much any industry it does have some effect on the general public. In this case it takes a certain amount of opportunity of harvesting animals away from residents of Alberta. A portion of the animals that can be harvested every year is set aside for guiding, for people to make a living off of.

How is this any different than any other industry that affects the public? Where do you draw the line? Do we want Alberta to be a have province, or a have-not?

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by Positrac

So let’s call Outfitting/guiding what it is; an industry. Like pretty much any industry it does have some effect on the general public. In this case it takes a certain amount of opportunity of harvesting animals away from residents of Alberta. A portion of the animals that can be harvested every year is set aside for guiding, for people to make a living off of.

How is this any different than any other industry that affects the public? Where do you draw the line? Do we want Alberta to be a have province, or a have-not?

Very fair assessment and I agree

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by Positrac

So let’s call Outfitting/guiding what it is; an industry. Like pretty much any industry it does have some effect on the general public. In this case it takes a certain amount of opportunity of harvesting animals away from residents of Alberta. A portion of the animals that can be harvested every year is set aside for guiding, for people to make a living off of.

How is this any different than any other industry that affects the public? Where do you draw the line? Do we want Alberta to be a have province, or a have-not?

Bingo !

Like I mentioned before, residents have over 95% of the opportunities province wide as it should be. The other 5% means a lot to the folks who make a living in the industry.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by fishnguy

^ Not agreeing or disagreeing with 270 (a neutral comment, if you will), but he is saying there are other ways to provide.

Of course there are other ways to provide.

Oil and gas workers can find other jobs
The logging industry can find other jobs
Mining can find other jobs
Commercial fishermen can find other jobs
And on and on and on.......

But if we shut down every industry that inconveniences somebody’s recreational activity what are we going to have left ?

[270person]

Originally Posted by Positrac

So let’s call Outfitting/guiding what it is; an industry. Like pretty much any industry it does have some effect on the general public. In this case it takes a certain amount of opportunity of harvesting animals away from residents of Alberta. A portion of the animals that can be harvested every year is set aside for guiding, for people to make a living off of.

How is this any different than any other industry that affects the public? Where do you draw the line? Do we want Alberta to be a have province, or a have-not?

With all due respect Posi I'm unclear as to how this particular sector of the tourism industry helps Alberta be a have province. Do we not have to cede rights to assets within the public domain for it to exist? Do we have a say in how those assets are shared or allocated? How that sector of the industry is regulated?

Unless of course you're alluding to "have" as simply being the "opportunity" to make use of shared provincial assets to earn a living.

[Positrac]

Originally Posted by 270person

With all due respect Posi I'm unclear as to how this particular sector of the tourism industry helps Alberta be a have province. Do we not have to cede rights to assets within the public domain for it to exist? Do we have a say in how those assets are shared or allocated? How that sector of the industry is regulated?

Unless of course you're alluding to "have" as simply being the "opportunity" to make use of shared provincial assets to earn a living.

I'm referring to the "have" as the ability to earn a good living. Take away every industry in the province that inconveniences somebody’s recreational activity as Tork puts it and we don't have a lot left. Having a bunch of Oilsands sites I'm sure inconveniences the Natives that called this area home before the first barrel was pulled out of the ground. What about rancher's grazing cattle on leased (Crown) land and how that could affect habitat for wild animals? Where do we draw the line?

I'm not up to speed on who owns the outfitter allocations, whether that be someone who calls Alberta home or a foreign entity. But I do know a few people who guide and each one of them are Alberta folks just trying to provide a living for their families. If the split is 95/5% for residents does that not seem reasonable for the jobs it creates?

I have no skin in the game other than if we were to do away with all non-resident hunting through a guide my draw application may change by an amount so little it really wouldn't make any difference. If I was going to put my efforts into something that would actually reduce the number of years it took to draw certain species and at the same time make it safer to be out in the bush I would look at what it takes to show proof of residency and make it so proof of a hunter training course was required to get a hunting license and not just making it a tick of a box. In my mind that would be a positive step forward.

[fishnguy]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

Of course there are other ways to provide.

Oil and gas workers can find other jobs
The logging industry can find other jobs
Mining can find other jobs
Commercial fishermen can find other jobs
And on and on and on.......

But if we shut down every industry that inconveniences somebody’s recreational activity what are we going to have left ?

Don’t think it’s a fair comparison at all.

According to APOS, outfitting creates 460 full-time jobs in Alberta, while adding about $105M worth of economic activity (APOS’s numbers, so grain of salt, imo). Way over 90% of the service is provided to the clients that reside outside of Canada.

Tourism industry in Alberta employs about 73,000 people and brings about $8.9 annually (pre-pandemic), which provides for about 1% contribution by outfitting to the total of the industry.

Logging and oilfield, etc bring quite a bit more than tourism.

Not sure how many people are employed by the commercial fishery (I would assume way more than 460), but those guys also catch my food, literally.

Also, none of the aforementioned industries are self-regulated and run by convicted criminals, literally. Convicted, by the way, of the very (numerous) offenses as outlined by the Wildlife Act (as well as Criminal Code).

And, personally, I think people are having more problems with the latter. If it was a transparent “agency”, run by exemplary individuals, I think people would be more supportive. Most companies that employ 460 people, organized and run as the outfitting industry in Alberta, would likely be shutdown a long time ago.

Lastly, over 1,200 lost their job every single day last month, for perspective.

Most of what I wrote are facts, not an opinion.

[270person]

Originally Posted by Positrac

I'm referring to the "have" as the ability to earn a good living. Take away every industry in the province that inconveniences somebody’s recreational activity as Tork puts it and we don't have a lot left. Having a bunch of Oilsands sites I'm sure inconveniences the Natives that called this area home before the first barrel was pulled out of the ground. What about rancher's grazing cattle on leased (Crown) land and how that could affect habitat for wild animals? Where do we draw the line?

I'm not up to speed on who owns the outfitter allocations, whether that be someone who calls Alberta home or a foreign entity. But I do know a few people who guide and each one of them are Alberta folks just trying to provide a living for their families. If the split is 95/5% for residents does that not seem reasonable for the jobs it creates?

I have no skin in the game other than if we were to do away with all non-resident hunting through a guide my draw application may change by an amount so little it really wouldn't make any difference. If I was going to put my efforts into something that would actually reduce the number of years it took to draw certain species and at the same time make it safer to be out in the bush I would look at what it takes to show proof of residency and make it so proof of a hunter training course was required to get a hunting license and not just making it a tick of a box. In my mind that would be a positive step forward.

I guess I don't put many other industries in the same light Pos. You mention the oilsands for one but that's a pretty unfair comparison considering the benefits they provide to the region and it's residents. A lot of very high paying jobs for the indigenous to mention just one and although I'm sure there are many against, I doubt very much that those folks would want things shut down if it was an option.

Even to compare fishing outfitters is a huge misnomer. Lakes don't get closed to the fishing public when an outfitter moves in. I probably wouldn't risk parking my boat at one of their docks but if I wanted to cast a lure beside one...No problem. Fisheries does a much better job of regulating as well. Catch and release only, barbless hooks, off limit spawning areas, etc, help to insure the renewability of the resource. Same can't be said of the outfitted hunting industry for the large part. They exist primarily, unless a pandemic occurs and opens things up in order to keep the lights on, cater to out of country participants. This scenario works well in Africa where there would be a long list of extinctions without out of country hunters but that benefit isn't realized or required, Yet, here.

Then we can look at who plays a big part in administrating this show and come around to APOS. I think we all know enough about that fraternity. Are there good, bad, and suspect hunting outfitters? Of course, and I have no doubt TD is one of the former, but we don't have to look far within the annals of this very website to find evidence of the darker side.

Also, I should clarify that I don't really have major issues with hunt outfitters that "own" the land and operate within that lands boundaries only. As long as importing game animals isn't involved. Private land = do what you wish, lawfully.

Anyhoo, out of respect for (mod) roper1's request that things not move far away from the threads original purpose I'll take my leave of it before I help it go completely sideways. Cheers.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by fishnguy

Don’t think it’s a fair comparison at all.

According to APOS, outfitting creates 460 full-time jobs in Alberta, while adding about $105M worth of economic activity (APOS’s numbers, so grain of salt, imo). Way over 90% of the service is provided to the clients that reside outside of Canada.

Tourism industry in Alberta employs about 73,000 people and brings about $8.9 annually (pre-pandemic), which provides for about 1% contribution by outfitting to the total of the industry.

Logging and oilfield, etc bring quite a bit more than tourism.

Not sure how many people are employed by the commercial fishery (I would assume way more than 460), but those guys also catch my food, literally.

Also, none of the aforementioned industries are self-regulated and run by convicted criminals, literally. Convicted, by the way, of the very (numerous) offenses as outlined by the Wildlife Act (as well as Criminal Code).

And, personally, I think people are having more problems with the latter. If it was a transparent “agency”, run by exemplary individuals, I think people would be more supportive. Most companies that employ 460 people, organized and run as the outfitting industry in Alberta, would likely be shutdown a long time ago.

Lastly, over 1,200 lost their job every single day last month, for perspective.

Most of what I wrote are facts, not an opinion.

Do you think the people employed in the outfitting sector of the tourism industry care if the other industries contribute more overall to our provincial economy?
With that line of thinking the oil and gas industry could say logging is irrelevant because oil and gas brings in 300 times more revenue. Do you think those employed in the logging industry would agree ?

I mean truthfully, what does the court of public opinion feel is a small enough industry that we no longer need it ? That must be an awful high horse you ride to look down and say your family’s sustainability can no longer continue in that industry because I might have to wait 1 additional year to draw a deer tag.

As for APOS having issues that need fixing I agree, but that’s not what we’re talking about here. This discussion is about the viability of an industry.

[SouthWestRanger]

Jealously doesn’t look good on a lot of y’all. Look there’s some zones in the province where it’s way out of Waco but for the most part I don’t see an issue with allocations. Everywhere hunting is allowed in the world has non-resident outfitters or guided hunts, if someone wants to support their family through the outdoors, go for it, I’ll support everybody working hard in our awesome province. That being said I still hate the crooks at APOS lol

[Positrac]

Originally Posted by SouthWestRanger

Jealously doesn’t look good on a lot of y’all. Look there’s some zones in the province where it’s way out of Waco but for the most part I don’t see an issue with allocations. Everywhere hunting is allowed in the world has non-resident outfitters or guided hunts, if someone wants to support their family through the outdoors, go for it, I’ll support everybody working hard in our awesome province. That being said I still hate the crooks at APOS lol

I’d drink to that…!

[fishnguy]

Originally Posted by Ronaround

Dont you guys think there will be a decent possibility US residents may be able to hunt by early september with shots, papers and other hoop jumping?
I'm dying to get my long over due hunt going before its DOA on my deposit.
Im sure AO outfitters on this site are hoping the same to move past this Virus and be normal soon.

[Ronaround]

BRAVO> i seen and got multi reports that its a go, with all the T's crossed and protocol followed. I'm so happy!