New Sheep Jig and Registering

[Gear guy]

Got my sheep registered last week. Got to say it will be interesting from now on. The machine they have is pretty precise. One thing to note and it has been mentioned on here before is that they are still using the eye socket at the measuring point for what is legal. I had a frustrated chat with the bio about it because they now have to have a bio and a fish cop to register your sheep.
I said they will have some issues because the regs state eyeball but they are going from the eye socket now that you have to cape your sheep out. This will add about an inch longer in horn length now to become legal. I suspect many sheep will not pass now in the future so heads up! Hard to see an eye socket while hunting!

[sage 13]

Is the eyeball not in the socket or do you mean they are going from one of the edges of the socket.

[bonedogg]

does the eyeball not touch the eye socket?

[Gear guy]

Eyeball does not touch the eye socket and yes they are going from the bone part of the eye socket. Usually there is a half an inch between eye socket bone and the eyeball

[alder]

Where did you have it registered? Is this “machine” everywhere now?

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by alder

Where did you have it registered? Is this “machine” everywhere now?

There is only 17 offices that register sheep.

[Grizzly Adams]

So, does it still relate back to the length of the opposing horn, that can throw fly into the ointment. ? That eye socket thing has always been questionable. Seems like a poor system, taking field judgement to the lab. Tried to find Alberta versus Whitlow, where the judge held, if you are satisfied you made a sound decision. you're not liable.



Grizz

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by Gear guy

Got my sheep registered last week. Got to say it will be interesting from now on. The machine they have is pretty precise. One thing to note and it has been mentioned on here before is that they are still using the eye socket at the measuring point for what is legal. I had a frustrated chat with the bio about it because they now have to have a bio and a fish cop to register your sheep.
I said they will have some issues because the regs state eyeball but they are going from the eye socket now that you have to cape your sheep out. This will add about an inch longer in horn length now to become legal. I suspect many sheep will not pass now in the future so heads up! Hard to see an eye socket while hunting!

At least you got to talk to the officer and biologist. They wouldn't let me talk to them in the Lethbridge office when I took my ram in. Your right there are going to be a lot of sheep taken away with the new jig. There will be about a half inch difference I thought with the cape removed. On a 4/5 ram. With a full curl ram the new jig will help a lot of sheep make it with the cape removed as it moves the center of the nostril down a bit.

[Gear guy]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

At least you got to talk to the officer and biologist. They wouldn't let me talk to them in the Lethbridge office when I took my ram in. Your right there are going to be a lot of sheep taken away with the new jig. There will be about a half inch difference I thought with the cape removed. On a 4/5 ram. With a full curl ram the new jig will help a lot of sheep make it with the cape removed as it moves the center of the nostril down a bit.

yes it helps with full curl you are right but there are not many full curl zones.
I was amazed they let me in the room after to be honest. Good on them for showing me the new system and all. There are only about 6 Bio's in the province to register these sheep. I was also asking myself the question what happens when my horns started to come off the core because I had a rotting head and still had to make the appointment. Luckily they got me in after 4 days of calling but I would find it interesting with what they would do if the cores started coming off.
I told them to change the regulations if they were going to start using the eye socket because it's been so missleading for years with the eyeball in the reg's.
It's one or the other and can't be both.
I would love to know how many short sheep cases there are in the province on average and also see what it will be this year.

[calvin]

Originally Posted by Gear guy

yes it helps with full curl you are right but there are not many full curl zones.
I was amazed they let me in the room after to be honest. Good on them for showing me the new system and all. There are only about 6 Bio's in the province to register these sheep. I was also asking myself the question what happens when my horns started to come off the core because I had a rotting head and still had to make the appointment. Luckily they got me in after 4 days of calling but I would find it interesting with what they would do if the cores started coming off.
I told them to change the regulations if they were going to start using the eye socket because it's been so missleading for years with the eyeball in the reg's.
It's one or the other and can't be both.
I would love to know how many short sheep cases there are in the province on average and also see what it will be this year.

you bring up some great points. i talked to a CO the other day and they are all hating this device. there is no room for 'field judgement' on their part. they used to be able to 'move the string a little' in years past and this device puts them in a crappy position in regards to enforcement. they have removed the discretion of the measurer scenario. i would be very nervous to bring in a tight sheep.

[KBF]

So now you not only have to look for a sheep with longhorn, but one that has eyes located lower and further back on the head to be sure you are safe. Sounds like quite the racket.

[Gear guy]

Originally Posted by calvin

you bring up some great points. i talked to a CO the other day and they are all hating this device. there is no room for 'field judgement' on their part. they used to be able to 'move the string a little' in years past and this device puts them in a crappy position in regards to enforcement. they have removed the discretion of the measurer scenario. i would be very nervous to bring in a tight sheep.

Well I think some guys are pushing that string call too much and putting officers in a tough spot honestly. And then there are those sheep that are left in a bush after shot because it was not what they thought.
The reason for this post was to just help out a bit and to let you know there is no more give and take on the officers side of things. It's actually in the hands of the bio now as the one calling the shots with this new jig they got. The new system you will need more horn length on squeeker rams and most squeekers in the pat won't be squeeking any more.
Just saying do yourself a favour when out there for sheep cause it's a different ballgame now.

[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by Gear guy

yes it helps with full curl you are right but there are not many full curl zones.
I was amazed they let me in the room after to be honest. Good on them for showing me the new system and all. There are only about 6 Bio's in the province to register these sheep. I was also asking myself the question what happens when my horns started to come off the core because I had a rotting head and still had to make the appointment. Luckily they got me in after 4 days of calling but I would find it interesting with what they would do if the cores started coming off.
I told them to change the regulations if they were going to start using the eye socket because it's been so missleading for years with the eyeball in the reg's.
It's one or the other and can't be both.
I would love to know how many short sheep cases there are in the province on average and also see what it will be this year.

You still only have 14 to get it registered. Keep it in the freezer, your horns shouldn't come off the cores that quick. Take lots of field photos that way your azz is covered if they do decide to take you to court. It shows you did your due diligence.

[clyde]

There shouldnt be any room for field judgement by the officer.. This jig adds consistancy which has been lacking and may take some adjustment on our part but too many short rams are being shot.. 17 rams surrendered from 400 and 402 for being short last year alone.. Dont know how many resulted in convictions but that is unacceptable

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[scarecrow]

That is interesting that some are told that it is now the eye socket. We had our ram registered this fall and the officer let us in the room as well. It was interesting to see that they now take a measurement on how for passed legal the ram is when it is harvested. In the case of our ram, the officer allowed us to take a picture of where the line is that this officer deemed to be legal. The picture clearly shows that it is the eyeball and not the socket. We confirmed with the officer that it was the eye and not the socket because we had heard contradictory reports in the past. He convincingly said that it is the eyeball. In either case our ram was legal but that is why I asked to take a picture of the position he determined was legal on this ram.

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by scarecrow

That is interesting that some are told that it is now the eye socket. We had our ram registered this fall and the officer let us in the room as well. It was interesting to see that they now take a measurement on how for passed legal the ram is when it is harvested. In the case of our ram, the officer allowed us to take a picture of where the line is that this officer deemed to be legal. The picture clearly shows that it is the eyeball and not the socket. We confirmed with the officer that it was the eye and not the socket because we had heard contradictory reports in the past. He convincingly said that it is the eyeball. In either case our ram was legal but that is why I asked to take a picture of the position he determined was legal on this ram.

Trophy Sheep - A male bighorn sheep with horns, one of which is of sufficient size that a straight line drawn from the most anterior point of the base of the horn to the tip of the horn extends beyond the anterior edge of the eye when viewed in profile.

The eye socket is considerably large than the eye and part of it is hidden. Doesn't say eye socket or that the measurement has to be aligned with the oposite horn, to determine profile. But, that's the way they've been doing it. Alternative is to go to court and probably lose.

Grizz

[Gear guy]

Originally Posted by clyde

There shouldnt be any room for field judgement by the officer.. This jig adds consistancy which has been lacking and may take some adjustment on our part but too many short rams are being shot.. 17 rams surrendered from 400 and 402 for being short last year alone.. Dont know how many resulted in convictions but that is unacceptable

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17 rams in 2 zones? I call big time BS on that one

[clyde]

Originally Posted by Gear guy

17 rams in 2 zones? I call big time BS on that one

That's what I thought.. came from a CO in the area.. theres a high chance he's full of BS

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[OL_JR]

Interesting thanks for the heads up. It would be nice if the description of a legal sheep was a bit more thorough and led no room for for hearsay. I've had people tell me all sorts of things "from a co." From it being past the eyeball, past the tear duct, past the eye socket, broomed mature rams will get more leeway than lamb tipped rams...

I've always gone by the eyeball as that is what you can reasonably see in the field and that's how I understand the wording in the regs.

[freeride]

Here is a pdf showing the jig

https://mywildalberta.ca/hunting/gam...gistration.pdf

[bdub]

Originally Posted by clyde

There shouldnt be any room for field judgement by the officer.. This jig adds consistancy which has been lacking and may take some adjustment on our part but too many short rams are being shot.. 17 rams surrendered from 400 and 402 for being short last year alone.. Dont know how many resulted in convictions but that is unacceptable

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Agree and that was probably a good part of the reason they introduced the jig.

[dave99]

My ram did not fit in the jig. Here is a pic of the square system used to measure mine. They are now using the jig, but in cases where the ram does not fit the jig, they refer back to the square.



Grizz: both the jig and the square align both anterior horn bases, thus establishing a profile. The square is then rotated such that it lines up just in front of the eye ball (more on this later). This allows the tip of the horn on that side to be evaluated. If it extends to or beyond the square, legal ram. If it is short.... you are in for a boatload of trouble. I agree that the system for judging and and registering sheep is not perfectly black and white.



OP: I certainly don’t mean to be argumentative, but I am not aware of the requirement for a 4/5 ram horn to extend past the bony eye socket rather than the globe of the eye (eyeball). This would be a significant change from previous years, and I suspect that it would not stand up in court, regardless of what a bio or officer told you.
Also, the ram I registered had an officer but no bio present.


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[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by dave99

My ram did not fit in the jig. Here is a pic of the square system used to measure mine. They are now using the jig, but in cases where the ram does not fit the jig, they refer back to the square.



Grizz: both the jig and the square align both anterior horn bases, thus establishing a profile. The square is then rotated such that it lines up just in front of the eye ball (more on this later). This allows the tip of the horn on that side to be evaluated. If it extends to or beyond the square, legal ram. If it is short.... you are in for a boatload of trouble. I agree that the system for judging and and registering sheep is not perfectly black and white.



OP: I certainly don’t mean to be argumentative, but I am not aware of the requirement for a 4/5 ram horn to extend past the bony eye socket rather than the globe of the eye (eyeball). This would be a significant change from previous years, and I suspect that it would not stand up in court, regardless of what a bio or officer told you.
Also, the ram I registered had an officer but no bio present.


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You got lucky! I was told that a biologist has to be present with a co. I think you had a co who didn’t know the new policy. As stated before there are only 17 officers that register sheep. There is a difference with the cape on and the cape off on a 4/5 ram. All rams should fit in the jig that’s why they went to this.

[dave99]

Originally Posted by ram crazy

You got lucky! I was told that a biologist has to be present with a co. I think you had a co who didn’t know the new policy. As stated before there are only 17 officers that register sheep. There is a difference with the cape on and the cape off on a 4/5 ram.

Ram, I may have gotten lucky in that no bio was present, but I can say that the decision to register or seize a sheep is solely based on the officers judgement (and not the bios opinion). Bios are neither trained nor qualified to make that call. I am not sure why a bio would be involved with the process of registering a sheep at all, but would suspect that it would have to do with DNA collection from the horn filings from the plug, as well as maybe aging the ram.

As Scarecrow said in an above post, I believe that lately bios are VERY interested in determining whether a ram just became legal in the year it was harvested versus whether it was already legal the previous hunting season. This can be roughly found by subtracting the length of its latest annulus. Data collected from this may (and likely will) be used in future to set sheep policy.

As an aside, info gathered from harvested sheep can be pretty sloppy. One of our hunting partners took a beautiful 8.5 year old ram the day after I shot mine. It was a hair shy of full curl, out of a 4/5 zone. The officer and bio in the city determined it to be 5.5 years old. Huh?



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[ram crazy]

Originally Posted by dave99

Ram, I may have gotten lucky in that no bio was present, but I can say that the decision to register or seize a sheep is solely based on the officers judgement (and not the bios opinion). Bios are neither trained nor qualified to make that call. I am not sure why a bio would be involved with the process of registering a sheep at all, but would suspect that it would have to do with DNA collection from the horn filings from the plug, as well as maybe aging the ram.

As Scarecrow said in an above post, I believe that lately bios are VERY interested in determining whether a ram just became legal in the year it was harvested versus whether it was already legal the previous hunting season. This can be roughly found by subtracting the length of its latest annulus. Data collected from this may (and likely will) be used in future to set sheep policy.

As an aside, info gathered from harvested sheep can be pretty sloppy. One of our hunting partners took a beautiful 8.5 year old ram the day after I shot mine. It was a hair shy of full curl, out of a 4/5 zone. The officer and bio in the city determined it to be 5.5 years old. Huh?



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Here’s my theory on why the government has biologists involved. When the government puts sheep on draw in the next few years they can say they did a study on why they feel they are doing the right thing to improve the sheep.

[alpineguy]

Hey guys, maybe I missed it above but if the requirement is to provide the head caped but the eyeball intact my guess would be it's because they are using the eyeball not the eye socket as a reference point. It would be easier to measure to the eye socket if the eye was removed wouldn't it?

[Gear guy]

Dave it is a huge problem with aging. With mine one thing they didn't count is the broomed off portion which was at least a year and a half. I have aged a lot of sheep and they gave mine 8 years old. I had him at 10 with the missing portions. I have other rams that have been registered with less years than I thought they should be given as well. This just proves our age class getting shot are higher than what is on paper and it is not right.
And Dave I have no idea why you would think yours did not fit the jig? They all do as long as that bottom jaw is off. I suspect you had a rookie dealing with you and was the reason a bio was not present as they are all suppose to now from what I was told.

Bdub- the dark portion may have been the past......like I said officers had all kinds of thoughts of where to measure from and I think that is why this new jig. There is no question on where the line is drawn from now except some may still use the eyeball but like mine some are using the eye socket just like days in the past with some officers when presented with a caped sheep. Now that they all need to be caped I suspect more of this eye socket business will happen.

[dave99]

Originally Posted by Gear guy

And Dave I have no idea why you would think yours did not fit the jig? They all do as long as that bottom jaw is off. I suspect you had a rookie dealing with you and was the reason a bio was not present as they are all suppose to now from what I was told.

GG: I saw for myself that the ram did not fit the jig. As you can see in the pic, the mandible is off. The CO tried several times it did not fit, so he defaulted to the square.

As for a rookie CO, he is a sheep hunter with at least 20 years on me. Stand up guy.


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[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Gear guy

Dave it is a huge problem with aging. With mine one thing they didn't count is the broomed off portion which was at least a year and a half. I have aged a lot of sheep and they gave mine 8 years old. I had him at 10 with the missing portions. I have other rams that have been registered with less years than I thought they should be given as well. This just proves our age class getting shot are higher than what is on paper and it is not right.
And Dave I have no idea why you would think yours did not fit the jig? They all do as long as that bottom jaw is off. I suspect you had a rookie dealing with you and was the reason a bio was not present as they are all suppose to now from what I was told.

Bdub- the dark portion may have been the past......like I said officers had all kinds of thoughts of where to measure from and I think that is why this new jig. There is no question on where the line is drawn from now except some may still use the eyeball but like mine some are using the eye socket just like days in the past with some officers when presented with a caped sheep. Now that they all need to be caped I suspect more of this eye socket business will happen.

Not legally defining the "Eye" point of measurement is soon going to result in a court case. I suspect F&W may be waiting for the courts to do what should be their work.

Were annuli measurements taken?

F&W is also going to have a data reconciliation problem when aggregating yearly growth measurements.

Ignoring brooming, broomed off annuli, or simply getting the age wrong on rams will distort the data into an unusable mess.

They have been advised of these concerns for years now....
And here we are.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Gear guy

Dave it is a huge problem with aging. With mine one thing they didn't count is the broomed off portion which was at least a year and a half. I have aged a lot of sheep and they gave mine 8 years old. I had him at 10 with the missing portions. I have other rams that have been registered with less years than I thought they should be given as well. This just proves our age class getting shot are higher than what is on paper and it is not right.
And Dave I have no idea why you would think yours did not fit the jig? They all do as long as that bottom jaw is off. I suspect you had a rookie dealing with you and was the reason a bio was not present as they are all suppose to now from what I was told.

Bdub- the dark portion may have been the past......like I said officers had all kinds of thoughts of where to measure from and I think that is why this new jig. There is no question on where the line is drawn from now except some may still use the eyeball but like mine some are using the eye socket just like days in the past with some officers when presented with a caped sheep. Now that they all need to be caped I suspect more of this eye socket business will happen.

I would like to see a good pic of your ram, I don’t understand how aging them can be that difficult. Especially if you have the ram in hand. I can see being off a year if you are going by a photo but not if you can examine it in person. I just don’t get it. As for the eye socket thing being the point of reference, I have to ask then why do they require the eyeball to remain in skull for registration. That makes no sense either. From my experience with a few rams in both Alberta and BC they have been pretty accurate so far for aging. I don’t really believe it is a huge problem. Maybe the odd ram thats miss aged but I don’t believe the numbers could be significant. And the ones that are miss aged are probably older sheep, not the younger stuff.