.22Mag vs .17 hmr

[bobtodrick]

1.5moa is a decent shooting .22WMR. Half that for a .17HMR. I'm talking consistent groups...I know every WMR shooter has the story of their 3/4moa gun or the HMR shooter with is 1/2moa gun, but those aren't the norm.
So what size is a turkey head...extrapolate those group sizes to the distance you are shooting at and you have your answer.
At 250 yards the WMR is going to give something near 4" groups, the HMR half that. I'd likely go with the .17 for the distances you are talking.
Problem is my ballistics program tells me that at 250 yds the .17 Hornady (one of the most accurate) is generating a 'massive' 38ft/lbs of energy...less power than some airguns have.
At 250 yds however the less accurate WMR is 'packing' 65ft/lbs of energy, nearly double.
In essence I'm saying that taking a turkey at the distances you are taking about is going to be pure fluke.
Neither round is 'headshot' accurate at 250yds. Yet neither has the energy to ethically take it with a body shot.
I'd limit your shots to 150yds max.

[roper1]

If your ethical shotgun range is 40-60 yards, you can call him to within twice that distance (80-120 yds), shoot him in the chest with the .22 mag, put your tag on him, get your centerfire & shoot predators. Have fun & report back to us later!!

[waterhaulerhunter]

So you didn't even know the 22mag or 17hmr existed and now you want to start shooting at turkey heads and wolves at 200+ yds? Spend a season in the gopher patch with a 17 hmr and you'll see how ridiculous that is. Shoot your turkey with a shotgun like everyone else, and leave the rumfires for gophers. Just my opinion though I guess.

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by waterninja

Believe me, I am listening. my biggest mistake was mentioning the wolf . I only threw that in there because as a non-resident I am only allowed to hunt a bearded Turkey, grouse, coyote or wolf. Not sure about rabbit.
Another thing that became important to me was the fact that I could use a rim fired rifle. Thats when I found out about the .17 and the.22mag.
TURKEY is my priority. I have never shot one and already have plans for the DIY mount. If a Wolf crosses my path while I'm out stalking a Turkey you can bet I'll try my best to put him/her down.

Legality issues aside for B.C., I don't think .17 and wolf belongs in the same sentence. There is more to it than kinetic energy, or foot/pounds. Momentum is more important, and large bore rifle or pistols guys can tell you of dropping very large game with energy numbers that most magnum guys would consider absolutely anemic.

Had a pretty good conversation with a guy that shoots his 45-70 with nothing but cast and black powder, or equivalent loads. Saw a video of one of his kills and one was a zebra being hit with only about 1100 foot/lbs. Went straight through, quartering shot, and it hit the ground so hard it bounced.

I think the accuracy, or lack of is a myth as applied to cartridges. Of course one factor is trans sonic speed, or the distance at which the bullet goes from super sonic to below the speed of sound. At that range, the transition will affect the bullet and accuracy will suffer a bit.

I'd take a wolf with a .22 mag (here), but certainly not at long range. And when wolves are howling all around, a .22 mag feels pretty small.

[500+BC]

Bought my dad a marlin .17hmr for christmas and it was sooooo nice to shoot at a 100y that i used a normal rifle scope later on because the parallax difference wont matter he can ding stuff off the deck while hes drink his coffee lol

only down side is it doesnt like the wind but neither does the .22 wm

[spoiledsaskhunter]

Originally Posted by waterninja

If you had a choice betweet a .22 mag rimfire and a .17 hmr which would you choose? Un till recently I didn't even know that you could get a rimfire in anythng other then your standard .22.
What I want is the rifle that has the best accuarcy and stopping power at longer distances, say 250-300 yds. I know there are a lot of things ot consider which is why I am asking the real experts before I talk ti the fellow at the gun counter (yes I realise there are some very knowledgeable
people working at gun counteres).
Bottom line is that I will be going on a turkey hunt in april and i want the best rimfire rifle that will take out that shy goobler, coyote or wolf at 250 yds or better.

don't answer him guys.....he's being stoopid.

[waterninja]

...

[waterninja]

Originally Posted by spoiledsaskhunter

don't answer him guys.....he's being stoopid.

So someone is trying to learn all they can about Rimfire rifles and thats your responce? Rather then bother mods i'll just ask if that joint in your mouth makes you stoned as well as being to stupid to spell stupid?

[spoiledsaskhunter]

bother the mods, for what?

anyone who asks a question like this deserves to be called out.

[spoiledsaskhunter]

........I know the proper way to spell stoooooopid. do you know the difference between too and to?

never mind, this is pointless. I shook my head and asked myself why I was even provoked into responding........sorry to everyone who has a clue.

[Groundhogger]

Originally Posted by waterhaulerhunter

So you didn't even know the 22mag or 17hmr existed and now you want to start shooting at turkey heads and wolves at 200+ yds? Spend a season in the gopher patch with a 17 hmr and you'll see how ridiculous that is. Shoot your turkey with a shotgun like everyone else, and leave the rumfires for gophers. Just my opinion though I guess.

^this.

Hey waterninja~I think it's easy to look at the magnum rimfires like 17HMR and 22WMR and suddenly assume they're infinitely more capable, farther reaching etc. With the jump in power comes just a LITTLE of that, but not nearly as much as you may have been let-on to believe. Yes, there are tales of bigger game animals being knocked-over with 22WMR and 22LR but in the ones I've read there are unusual circumstances that resulted in someone feeling they had to do it, it was a caliber used to dispatch large farm animals under very controlled circumstances, etc. There are others, but enough on that.

I think I most agree with waterhaulerhunter's comments above, and those of someone else commenting on accuracy/energy of these once you start to stretch their legs a little distance-wise. I've owned a 22WMR rifle, and have shot numerous others belonging to friends. I don't own one now. I've personally owned at least 4, maybe 5, 17HMR rifles over the years and am down to 1. Out of all of that time/$ spent, and time shooting small game with them, I've come to realize a few things about them...and ANY rimfire rifle.

1. Rimfire guns are very ammo-fussy if you're after accuracy. A good enough gun with a good trigger+a willingness to try lots of ammo types~you might get lucky. You might not, too

2. 22WMR~more knock-down power on animals up to the 30-40lb. range out to 125 yards than a 17HMR

3. 22WMR is NOT an inherently accurate caliber, and I've yet to try one...or know any honest shooter who HAS one....that can reliably keep shots in even a 1-1/4" circle at 100 yards. Yes, it's been done..even I've printed 3/4" groups and could dig-up the targets to prove it..but it was a fluke considering numerous groups before/after. The best shooting 22WMR I ever shot (with 9 varieties of ammo) couldn't keep them in the 1" circle, 3 different shooters trying.

4. Wind+distance+long shots+rimfire~just a very bad combination any way you slice it. I think I'd be inclined to suggest to abandon the whole idea BUT get yourself a good 17HMR and practice a ton with it. THEN decide what is, and isn't an ethical shot and at what distances. Gophers are willing participants in exercises like this I've learned.

I have buddies who razz me about the time/effort/practice I put in hand loading .223 for groundhogs here in Ontario, because "they're just groundhogs". True, like an Alberta gopher only about 20 x + the size in some cases! But, the way I look at it is this~if all I see is a groundhogs head popping out of it's hole @ 200 yards, I'm the difference between a instant (=fatal) shot and blowing it's nose off and it suffering terribly. Practice, load testing, better optics, etc. IS the difference between good shots and bad ones and if that's what it takes, that's what I do. I think you need to look at your turkey head shots the same way. Put a bunch of ping pong balls (a generous estimation of the kill-zone size of a turkey head) at an honest 100/200/300 yards...then see what you can do with your HMR. Then imagine them nearly black in color, and moving.

Re: coyotes and wolves~in my honest opinion, forget wolves altogether with either caliber and MAYBE coyotes out to 50-75 yards with a 22WMR.

Hope this helps, not trying to be a smart a**!

[bobtodrick]

Originally Posted by Groundhogger

^this.

Hey waterninja~I think it's easy to look at the magnum rimfires like 17HMR and 22WMR and suddenly assume they're infinitely more capable, farther reaching etc. With the jump in power comes just a LITTLE of that, but not nearly as much as you may have been let-on to believe. Yes, there are tales of bigger game animals being knocked-over with 22WMR and 22LR but in the ones I've read there are unusual circumstances that resulted in someone feeling they had to do it, it was a caliber used to dispatch large farm animals under very controlled circumstances, etc. There are others, but enough on that.

I think I most agree with waterhaulerhunter's comments above, and those of someone else commenting on accuracy/energy of these once you start to stretch their legs a little distance-wise. I've owned a 22WMR rifle, and have shot numerous others belonging to friends. I don't own one now. I've personally owned at least 4, maybe 5, 17HMR rifles over the years and am down to 1. Out of all of that time/$ spent, and time shooting small game with them, I've come to realize a few things about them...and ANY rimfire rifle.

1. Rimfire guns are very ammo-fussy if you're after accuracy. A good enough gun with a good trigger+a willingness to try lots of ammo types~you might get lucky. You might not, too

2. 22WMR~more knock-down power on animals up to the 30-40lb. range out to 125 yards than a 17HMR

3. 22WMR is NOT an inherently accurate caliber, and I've yet to try one...or know any honest shooter who HAS one....that can reliably keep shots in even a 1-1/4" circle at 100 yards. Yes, it's been done..even I've printed 3/4" groups and could dig-up the targets to prove it..but it was a fluke considering numerous groups before/after. The best shooting 22WMR I ever shot (with 9 varieties of ammo) couldn't keep them in the 1" circle, 3 different shooters trying.

4. Wind+distance+long shots+rimfire~just a very bad combination any way you slice it. I think I'd be inclined to suggest to abandon the whole idea BUT get yourself a good 17HMR and practice a ton with it. THEN decide what is, and isn't an ethical shot and at what distances. Gophers are willing participants in exercises like this I've learned.

I have buddies who razz me about the time/effort/practice I put in hand loading .223 for groundhogs here in Ontario, because "they're just groundhogs". True, like an Alberta gopher only about 20 x + the size in some cases! But, the way I look at it is this~if all I see is a groundhogs head popping out of it's hole @ 200 yards, I'm the difference between a instant (=fatal) shot and blowing it's nose off and it suffering terribly. Practice, load testing, better optics, etc. IS the difference between good shots and bad ones and if that's what it takes, that's what I do. I think you need to look at your turkey head shots the same way. Put a bunch of ping pong balls (a generous estimation of the kill-zone size of a turkey head) at an honest 100/200/300 yards...then see what you can do with your HMR. Then imagine them nearly black in color, and moving.

Re: coyotes and wolves~in my honest opinion, forget wolves altogether with either caliber and MAYBE coyotes out to 50-75 yards with a 22WMR.

Hope this helps, not trying to be a smart a**!

Best single post here.
I have tacked up on my wall at work a five shot group with my Savage .22WMR at 100m that is just over 1/2".
Do NOT ask me to produce a 2nd example

[waterninja]

Thanks for the honest and informative responces. I should never have added Coyote or Wolf into the conversation. They just happened to some of the other species a non res could hunt in BC. The real reason for the trip is TURKEY..

I use a .22lr a lot for grouse and when I read that you were allowed to use a rimfire rifle for Turkey then thats when I really wanted to know more about Rimfire rifles. I wanted something with more killing power at a longer distance. Of course I'll have my shotgun along, but I have pretty well decided on the .17hmr to also bring along.

[REMINGTON JIM]

22 Mag for me - Heavier hitting power - Bigger heavier Bullet ! CZ455 RJ

[JTRED]

Last year I used my 17HMR for the final weekend of turkey hunting here in BC mainly because they seemed to be getting pretty wise to calls and were hanging up just shy of shotgun range. It's likely my fault something with my set up but anyhow I decided to take the 17 for one weekend and it paid off. I called the birds out to me and killed one at around 60-70yds. 250yds would be very difficult to identify whether or not it's bearded, keep in mind not all toms will have a beard. It is sometimes difficult to tell if it's bearded at 40yds. You have to be able to see the beard, the regs specify bearded turkey, not toms only. If you can't see the beard you really shouldn't be shooting. Another thing to keep in mind regarding long shots on turkeys is that a lot of people use decoys that look really lifelike and they may be well camouflaged on the the other side. I hunt turkeys on public land with my daughters so it worries me that people may be out there shooting at birds from longer distances. It is different if you call the bird out to you and clearly identify your target and background.

[trackrig]

Originally Posted by JTRED

Last year I used my 17HMR for the final weekend of turkey hunting here in BC mainly because they seemed to be getting pretty wise to calls and were hanging up just shy of shotgun range. It's likely my fault something with my set up but anyhow I decided to take the 17 for one weekend and it paid off. I called the birds out to me and killed one at around 60-70yds. 250yds would be very difficult to identify whether or not it's bearded, keep in mind not all toms will have a beard. It is sometimes difficult to tell if it's bearded at 40yds. You have to be able to see the beard, the regs specify bearded turkey, not toms only. If you can't see the beard you really shouldn't be shooting. Another thing to keep in mind regarding long shots on turkeys is that a lot of people use decoys that look really lifelike and they may be well camouflaged on the the other side. I hunt turkeys on public land with my daughters so it worries me that people may be out there shooting at birds from longer distances. It is different if you call the bird out to you and clearly identify your target and background.

This reminds me of out where I hunt moose. Years ago a guy named John Kabanny, RIP, homesteaded all of the land around 7 Mile Lake. Because he lived on the lake he usually got his moose early in the season.

As you approach the lake you're on a 10' rise before you drop down into the mess of swamps, mud and creeks you have to get through to get past the lake. About a mile of mud. Most people will stop on the little rise and walk down a ways into the mud to see which way to proceed.

Off to the right there's a nice little brush field. John had set up a couple of drums over there that he'd throw his moose hide over and a frame to prop the moose head and horns up on.

He'd be back well out of the way in the brush with a book waiting for the people to walk down in the mud. As they'd walk back up the little rise, if they were paying attention at all, they'd see John's moose over there about 75 yards and start shooting. After a while John would break out laughing and eventually the shooters would figure out what was up.

Bill