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  #181  
Old 11-17-2016, 06:56 AM
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Wazy.338 Wazy.338 is offline
 
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When i was with ESRD we would get a number of cases/complaints. When i was around "2012-2015" we had slapped a number Lesse's hands and provided access to hunters when they had been "denied"

There is a system, its clearly provided by GOA. Many of these wouldn't take much time at all either. Contact the right folks and if you're doing it right the system will work for you.
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  #182  
Old 11-17-2016, 09:52 AM
elkhunter220 elkhunter220 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Paskell View Post
I'm bashing the regulators not the people who have the hopeless task of enforcing absurd regulations as I have made clear previously. If you are happy with the way many lessee's are abusing the public thats fine with me, I'm not and once the public knows how badly they have been taken they won't either.

For your information the rules were made in 2003 when Sparrows attempt to sell off public lease land failed miserably. He did the next best thing in his mind which is the mess we have today. And he's still winning....so far.

"big girl patties" ? Entertaining post if nothing else.
What about public abusing lessee's?? I've seen garbage left from hunter's we've let on, quad tracks in areas where we had cattle and only foot access was allowed. Goes both ways man. I just don't like how your bashing the lessee's when many of them have very good reason to dislike hunter's and hunting season in general.
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  #183  
Old 11-17-2016, 12:31 PM
Paskell Paskell is offline
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Originally Posted by Wazy.338 View Post
When i was with ESRD we would get a number of cases/complaints. When i was around "2012-2015" we had slapped a number Lesse's hands and provided access to hunters when they had been "denied"

There is a system, its clearly provided by GOA. Many of these wouldn't take much time at all either. Contact the right folks and if you're doing it right the system will work for you.
You are sadly mistaken. You could not have dealt with the issues I have raised and explained in 2012-2015 because everything that is wrong with the system is legal and the extreme abuse many lease holders are exercising is fully within their rights. If you believe otherwise take an issue I have raised and explain how to deal with it. I have said that everything I have claimed is the result of FORMAL complaints and direct correspondence with the director. There is no confusion, address the specifics I have outlined, they are serious.
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  #184  
Old 11-18-2016, 06:48 AM
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Wazy.338 Wazy.338 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Rangifer View Post
Has anyone else been denied access and tried to resolve it by going up the chain?
Ok first off my original post was to answer this question. And im sorry sir, i did not dream up the episodes of providing access to hunters when Lessee's were being unreasonable, i surely cannot speak for the Province as a whole and i'm sure there are a number of unique situations that vary how they are handled, for the issues you have raised i obviously cannot speak for.

I simply wanted to point out and let others know, that there is a system and I've been a part of the team on the other side that has made it work for hunting access. Simply, there is a system and it can work for you.....Glass Half Full...
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  #185  
Old 11-18-2016, 09:15 AM
lannie lannie is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Wazy.338 View Post
Ok first off my original post was to answer this question. And im sorry sir, i did not dream up the episodes of providing access to hunters when Lessee's were being unreasonable, i surely cannot speak for the Province as a whole and i'm sure there are a number of unique situations that vary how they are handled, for the issues you have raised i obviously cannot speak for.

I simply wanted to point out and let others know, that there is a system and I've been a part of the team on the other side that has made it work for hunting access. Simply, there is a system and it can work for you.....Glass Half Full...
You are Showing Cochrane Ontario as your Location. Do you have a similar system in Ontario?
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  #186  
Old 11-18-2016, 09:29 AM
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Wazy.338 Wazy.338 is offline
 
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Moved back to ON last August, I am speaking from my experiences while i was public lands officer in AB. Ontario does not have a similar system, there may be a few "agricultural" leases here and there, but typically if its cultivated or grazed its deeded land. But up north is just Crown land for days, no issues with that kind of thing.

I just want to point out to people to folks that there is hope if you contact the right folks, every situation is different but make a call to the local ESRD or "AEP" now and explain the situation, hopefully a competent individual will steer down the right path.

For the Record i never agreed with the system, i myself have been given the "oh my brother in law is hunting that lease so you can P*ss off" speech, frustrating i understand, but i've also had great experiences with lesse's as well. I will agree the system needs some fixing, but it CAN work.
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  #187  
Old 11-21-2016, 01:12 PM
300backfire 300backfire is offline
 
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I've met 9 people just this weekend on my lease. Not one could be bothered to ask. I told each that I don't care if they want to hunt, but I want to know who's in there because I hunt as well. If your in there I don't want to blow your hunt and vise versa. Is that to hard to understand. For all the people that feel it's gods given right to just come on in any time you want and screw me? Just keep in mind, this land don't come free to me either. I pay taxes on that land, I pay my fees each year and I paid several thousand to take that lease over. As I read all these statements of the *******s that lease holders are? It's putting a bad taste in my mouth to you all. I've had to fix cut fences twice already this year because of hunters. I read a comment earlier that this guy calls the lease holder and TELLS him he's will be going out there on a certain day. Go ahead and try that one, it won't work well.
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  #188  
Old 11-21-2016, 02:58 PM
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harv3589 harv3589 is offline
 
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I can see why some lease holders would want to deny hunters after the last few days. I've seen garbage tossed out on roads in them, fences cut, guys driving anywhere they can get their truck in and most without permission to be there in the first place...and yes I know they don't because the lease holder told me that there had only been one other hunter ask for permission.

There are far more duche bag hunters than lease holders...if that's how people treat stuff they should be denied access. It's worse every year now...

Show some respect and get off ur lazy %ss...
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  #189  
Old 11-21-2016, 03:17 PM
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Schatz Schatz is offline
 
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Default Can those that have a grazing lease deny me access?

Wanted to gain access on a lease this weekend. Area was posted on all angles no tresspassing. I already knew the answer I was getting before I even spoke with her(was curious to hear the excuse more or less). " My husband has to many clients"on the lease sorry".
Told her observed that no one was on the property but apparently they were "kind of spread all over the place".

I'd almost rather hear, sorry we use this as our own personal hunting area rather then getting the complete run around.


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  #190  
Old 11-21-2016, 07:54 PM
Joe Black Joe Black is offline
 
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Clients? Did not know outfitters could guide on grazing leases. Would explain a lot.
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  #191  
Old 11-21-2016, 08:38 PM
crblair crblair is offline
 
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I definitely understand the common curtosy aspect to your statement. But on the other hand if the government says people can enter by foot access without permission (provided no cattle at large), why do you demand people ask? I can see the other gentlemans opinion if the law allows him to do so?


Quote:
Originally Posted by 300backfire View Post
I've met 9 people just this weekend on my lease. Not one could be bothered to ask. I told each that I don't care if they want to hunt, but I want to know who's in there because I hunt as well. If your in there I don't want to blow your hunt and vise versa. Is that to hard to understand. For all the people that feel it's gods given right to just come on in any time you want and screw me? Just keep in mind, this land don't come free to me either. I pay taxes on that land, I pay my fees each year and I paid several thousand to take that lease over. As I read all these statements of the *******s that lease holders are? It's putting a bad taste in my mouth to you all. I've had to fix cut fences twice already this year because of hunters. I read a comment earlier that this guy calls the lease holder and TELLS him he's will be going out there on a certain day. Go ahead and try that one, it won't work well.
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  #192  
Old 11-21-2016, 08:50 PM
300backfire 300backfire is offline
 
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It's very simple. Called curtesy.
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  #193  
Old 11-21-2016, 08:59 PM
300backfire 300backfire is offline
 
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I can understand many comments, but you need to understand ours. Where are you guys when fencing is a regular duty on my days off, or were chasing livestock down the road because some guy leaves the gate open. Where is the money when tax time comes and fees are due. At $2000 for a quarter mile fence, where is your money? Yet I've never denied access but that's not even good enough. Now you don't think it requires permission because the government owns it. I have an investment in that land no matter the title. And that's why I require permission
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  #194  
Old 11-21-2016, 09:22 PM
Joe Black Joe Black is offline
 
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Maybe access to grazing leases should be on a draw system? Draws came into place when to many hunters targeted a single general license species in any given area. Isn't this the same problem? Then it's fair to all. Only allow a certain number of hunters. No politics or games played. Some areas will have a long wait, others won't. Just like good areas for draws. ANYBODY Who is caught on a lease without a lease draw, same penalty as not having a license.

Should not have any resistance from lease holders or users with that.

Last edited by Joe Black; 11-21-2016 at 09:49 PM.
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  #195  
Old 11-21-2016, 09:35 PM
R3illy R3illy is offline
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i saw a lease today on a small section of land that said it would limit the number of hunters that would be allowed at a time to one group.. maximum of 4 in the group.

Thought they cant do that.. it was pretty specific wording that i havent seen before
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  #196  
Old 11-21-2016, 11:02 PM
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There are a few places that have 5-6 full sections of land that limit the number of hunters to 2 per day. It's a total joke.
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  #197  
Old 11-22-2016, 06:56 AM
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Well I just spoke to the lease holder where I hunt...still only two of us have asked. Advised him that hunters r driving wherever they can get their trucks in. Well now they will have to walk, he told me to lock the lease road gate when I go back out. So now no one can drive the 1/2 mile into the well site and walk from there...this is the first year the gate has been left open, guess it won't be from now on.
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  #198  
Old 11-22-2016, 07:01 AM
Deer Hunter Deer Hunter is offline
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Older guys like to get out and truck hunt. I don't blame them. They cannot walk the miles they did before when they were younger.

I like to walk but have no problem hunting where guys are driving. In my experience, cattle make more of a mess than do trucks rolling over frozen terrain.

I sure hope when I am older and cant walk as far, that whiners like harv3589 don't force me to stay home. Gates locked on lease land is a real issue.
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  #199  
Old 11-22-2016, 08:54 AM
Envitro Envitro is offline
 
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I'm totally with you on this one 300.
Public land is only truly public land when the land isn't leased to someone.
Would people feel differently if it was an oil & gas company that leased it, rather than a rancher?

It's not fair that you put up all this time and money into public land and people decide to intrude and break the law, and wreck your property (i.e. fences).

You're quite reasonable in just asking people to get permission so that you're aware who's on the land and when. Safety is number 1.

We as outdoors enthusiasts need to respect all landowners and leaseholders. It's pretty simple. You won't always get the answer that you're looking for, god knows I didn't this year always, but you respect it and move on. No need to throw a hissy fit.



Quote:
Originally Posted by 300backfire View Post
I've met 9 people just this weekend on my lease. Not one could be bothered to ask. I told each that I don't care if they want to hunt, but I want to know who's in there because I hunt as well. If your in there I don't want to blow your hunt and vise versa. Is that to hard to understand. For all the people that feel it's gods given right to just come on in any time you want and screw me? Just keep in mind, this land don't come free to me either. I pay taxes on that land, I pay my fees each year and I paid several thousand to take that lease over. As I read all these statements of the *******s that lease holders are? It's putting a bad taste in my mouth to you all. I've had to fix cut fences twice already this year because of hunters. I read a comment earlier that this guy calls the lease holder and TELLS him he's will be going out there on a certain day. Go ahead and try that one, it won't work well.
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  #200  
Old 11-22-2016, 09:55 AM
DCse7en DCse7en is offline
 
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If contact is required, and I really want to go in there I don't mind asking for permission. What I don't like is when I do phone, sometimes I have to pay for the jerks who didn't....
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  #201  
Old 11-22-2016, 10:07 AM
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So....if the main condition is something like : "phone 7 days prior to access"....and I phone 7 days prior to access....a I good to go? No where in the conditions does it say i need to talk to anyone; can I leave a message basically telling them I will be accessing the lease during a specific period of time?
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  #202  
Old 11-22-2016, 10:21 AM
Sneeze Sneeze is offline
 
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So....if the main condition is something like : "phone 7 days prior to access"....and I phone 7 days prior to access....a I good to go? No where in the conditions does it say i need to talk to anyone; can I leave a message basically telling them I will be accessing the lease during a specific period of time?
I used to think this would work but read a court case where a judge decided it wasn't. Hunters still are responsible to contact the lease holder and obtain permission.

There are several problems with the lease system IMO.

Guys using it as private hunting preserves.
Outfitters paying/trading favors to lock them up or leasing them for their business.
Overgrazing and cattle in waterways.

On the other hand... seriously if I ever see a hunter cutting a fence or chewing up the prairie I am going to punch them square in the face. Stop giving these lease holders something to shoot back with. If our noses are clean, hunters could take the high road on this issue.
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  #203  
Old 11-22-2016, 11:27 AM
fargineyesore fargineyesore is offline
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Originally Posted by 300backfire View Post
I can understand many comments, but you need to understand ours. Where are you guys when fencing is a regular duty on my days off, or were chasing livestock down the road because some guy leaves the gate open. Where is the money when tax time comes and fees are due. At $2000 for a quarter mile fence, where is your money? Yet I've never denied access but that's not even good enough. Now you don't think it requires permission because the government owns it. I have an investment in that land no matter the title. And that's why I require permission
Why should people help pay for your improvements. Your improvements are for your benefit to make money raising cattle. Are you going to share your profits then?

The idea of grazing leases was never to allow cattle on the least year round, but for the grazing season, then the land was to be available to public use after that.

Why can't you lease holders get it though your head that your Grazing Lease was not meant for you to have exclusive use and control of the land year round?
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  #204  
Old 11-22-2016, 12:05 PM
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KegRiver KegRiver is offline
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Originally Posted by fargineyesore View Post
The idea of grazing leases was never to allow cattle on the least year round, but for the grazing season, then the land was to be available to public use after that.

Where did you hear that ?

I'm on the local ag society board and have been active in farming as a farm worker and farm family member for over sixty years.
But I've never read that in any publication or document I've ever seen nore heard it at any gathering of farmers or government representatives.

Close friends and family members tell me they have never read or heard this before either.

We would all like to know where we can read that for ourselves, if you don't mind.
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  #205  
Old 11-22-2016, 12:41 PM
300backfire 300backfire is offline
 
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To fargineysore, you missed my point completely or you hit it right on the head, I'm not sure witch one. So if I ask you to help financially that's the response you give. (It's not up to me) fair enough, i only asked hypothetically. But you proved your point. But I pay, both money and time. That's my point. I'm glad that I understand there's a small percentage of people that think the way you do ( I want it all on the backs of others with no expectations from me) you must be an NDP supporter. I feel I made my point very clear and I deal I'm being fair. I only hold 2quarters and if someone asks to go in that's fine. But I'm not going to let 10 people in after you ask because it's not fair to you. On Sunday I met a guy named Jason and his son, he asked if he could go in next Saturday I said yes as well as talked to the neibour on the south so he could get access from that side if needed. If that's not being fair I'm clueless then
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  #206  
Old 11-22-2016, 01:08 PM
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MountainTi MountainTi is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Deer Hunter View Post
Older guys like to get out and truck hunt. I don't blame them. They cannot walk the miles they did before when they were younger.

I like to walk but have no problem hunting where guys are driving. In my experience, cattle make more of a mess than do trucks rolling over frozen terrain.

I sure hope when I am older and cant walk as far, that whiners like harv3589 don't force me to stay home. Gates locked on lease land is a real issue.
In some cases, more and more every year, public lands are allowing gates to be locked on owned grazing leases......helps keep the riff raff out 😉
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  #207  
Old 11-22-2016, 01:16 PM
fargineyesore fargineyesore is offline
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Maybe we're both missing our points, I'm not sure.

You talked about your expenses on the lease land to graze cattle. Yes there are expenses, and yes you pay some taxes on the land. But you knew that when you signed the lease. You knew that you would have to incur these expenses but you should have also known that you were expected to share the land at times of the year with other members of the public. But that does not give you exclusive use of the land. Its a no-brainer that there are unscrupulous people that cause leaseholders trouble, no one is denying that.


Question I have, how many leaseholders do you hear of that are just saying "to heck with it, it's not worth the hassle because of the public to keep this lease" and give up their lease for that very reason. You sure don't hear any leaseholders on here saying that, some they just want to keep people off and use it exclusively. Again that was NEVER the intent of a Grazing Lease. I've had people that have Forest Grazing Licenses tell me that as far a they are concerned, they own the land. Since when does paying some tax on some land make you entitled to be the owner? And a Forest Grazing License?

Its not just hunters that should be labelled with the "entitled" thing, there are many leaseholders that have that "entitled" attitude as well.

Seems that whenever someone mentions that there is a leaseholder that is denying for bs reasons, the attitude of some of the leaseholders is "well too bad, it's my lease and I'll decide what happens and if I want my family, buddies and no one else to hunt it, that's my decision and no one elses". They treat it like their very own game preserve.

You don't sound like that kind of leaseholder, but in stating that people that want to use the land for hunting should buck up for some of your expenses for your cattle operation shows some entitlement right there.

The land is not owned by you, you put up the improvements to run your cattle. Hunters are not stopping you from doing that.

To blame all hunters because of the actions of a few, would be the same to label all leaseholders as unreasonable, because of some that feel they own the land and have exclusive use of it.

And calling me an NDP supporter seems a little rich, considering you're the one that wants other people to pay for your fences.
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  #208  
Old 11-22-2016, 01:22 PM
fargineyesore fargineyesore is offline
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Originally Posted by KegRiver View Post
Where did you hear that ?

I'm on the local ag society board and have been active in farming as a farm worker and farm family member for over sixty years.
But I've never read that in any publication or document I've ever seen nore heard it at any gathering of farmers or government representatives.

Close friends and family members tell me they have never read or heard this before either.

We would all like to know where we can read that for ourselves, if you don't mind.
Well think about it, we have fall and winter in this country. Grazing is just that, eating grass. They are called Grazing Leases for a reason. If someone wants to use the land for something else, say haying or growing things, they need to get a different designation to the lease, such as a hay or cultivation permit. Why have these specific designation if you can just use the land for whatever you want, year round? If there is no grass to graze, why would livestock still be there? Cattle storage is not the purpose of a Grazing Lease.

Just ask a Public Lands Officer if Grazing Leases are meant to have cattle on them year-round.
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  #209  
Old 11-22-2016, 01:44 PM
raab raab is offline
 
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Not all leased land falls under a grazing lease....
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  #210  
Old 11-22-2016, 01:56 PM
fargineyesore fargineyesore is offline
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Obviously but Grazing Leases are what are being talked about are they not? If its a different form of Lease it may have different conditions for sure.
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