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Old 08-28-2013, 10:32 PM
nof60 nof60 is offline
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Default Question about restricted firearms

Can someone please point to the exact part of the firearms act that prohibits the discharge of restricted weapons on your own property assuming of course that the said property is rural, your residence and that discharge of firearms is done safely.

Thanks
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Old 08-28-2013, 10:45 PM
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Technically it's not illegal, the CFO just refuses to issue you an authorization to do so.

15. An individual may load a firearm or handle a loaded firearm only in a place where the firearm may be discharged in accordance with all applicable Acts of Parliament and of the legislature of a province, regulations made under such Acts, and municipal by-laws.

17. Subject to sections 19 and 20, a prohibited firearm or restricted firearm, the holder of the registration certificate for which is an individual, may be possessed only at the dwelling-house of the individual, as recorded in the Canadian Firearms Registry, or at a place authorized by a chief firearms officer.
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Old 08-28-2013, 11:04 PM
nof60 nof60 is offline
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but that is my point. rurally your att is good from your land location not dwelling so carrying it around property should be covered by att. in town tec speaking you are breaking the law carring you pistol to your detached garage to clean it without a statt.
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Old 08-29-2013, 06:47 AM
PartTimeHunter PartTimeHunter is offline
 
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I recently looked into upgrading my PAL to restricted and was stunned when told I couldn't shoot my handgun (when I finally got one) on my property it had to be at a range/gun club. What is the difference to taking my rifles out back and tearing up some paper with them or doing the same with a hand gun? How in the name of ........ does this make sense?
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Old 08-29-2013, 06:55 AM
OpenRange OpenRange is offline
 
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I have a restricted license and the only time I get a gun range membership is in the year that I have to renew my PAL because they require a membership in order to renew a restricted. After the first year expires I just leave it and shoot on my place all the time. The only way police or F&W would know if I was shooting on my place is if I called them to report it. I think if you have a big enough place to shoot and everything is clear then frankly it's none of their business what you do with a gun on your own property. I know that's probably illegal what I'm doing but I don't plan on reporting myself.
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Old 08-29-2013, 07:07 AM
PartTimeHunter PartTimeHunter is offline
 
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Originally Posted by OpenRange View Post
I have a restricted license and the only time I get a gun range membership is in the year that I have to renew my PAL because they require a membership in order to renew a restricted. After the first year expires I just leave it and shoot on my place all the time. The only way police or F&W would know if I was shooting on my place is if I called them to report it. I think if you have a big enough place to shoot and everything is clear then frankly it's none of their business what you do with a gun on your own property. I know that's probably illegal what I'm doing but I don't plan on reporting myself.
I tend to agree with you. It caught me off guard though. It just didn't make any sense - if it's ok to shoot the rifles with a longer effective range why not a hand gun?
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Old 08-29-2013, 08:08 AM
rwm1273 rwm1273 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenRange View Post
I have a restricted license and the only time I get a gun range membership is in the year that I have to renew my PAL because they require a membership in order to renew a restricted. After the first year expires I just leave it and shoot on my place all the time. The only way police or F&W would know if I was shooting on my place is if I called them to report it. I think if you have a big enough place to shoot and everything is clear then frankly it's none of their business what you do with a gun on your own property. I know that's probably illegal what I'm doing but I don't plan on reporting myself.
You just did.
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Old 08-29-2013, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenRange View Post
I have a restricted license and the only time I get a gun range membership is in the year that I have to renew my PAL because they require a membership in order to renew a restricted. After the first year expires I just leave it and shoot on my place all the time. The only way police or F&W would know if I was shooting on my place is if I called them to report it. I think if you have a big enough place to shoot and everything is clear then frankly it's none of their business what you do with a gun on your own property. I know that's probably illegal what I'm doing but I don't plan on reporting myself.
What you're doing isn't probably illegal, it's completely illegal. Like you said, as long as you don't get caught, but you do risk losing all of your firearms, forever. I know some guys do this kind of target shooting all of the time though.
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Old 08-29-2013, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by OpenRange View Post
I have a restricted license and the only time I get a gun range membership is in the year that I have to renew my PAL because they require a membership in order to renew a restricted. After the first year expires I just leave it and shoot on my place all the time. The only way police or F&W would know if I was shooting on my place is if I called them to report it. I think if you have a big enough place to shoot and everything is clear then frankly it's none of their business what you do with a gun on your own property. I know that's probably illegal what I'm doing but I don't plan on reporting myself.
Yeah, the police never go on the internet to investigate suspicious activity. They especially don't pursue public confessions of crimes that would be as easy as shooting fish in a barrel and perhaps put some shine on their annual performance review. Nobody has ever been tracked down through their IP address either




Yes, that was sarcasm
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Old 08-29-2013, 07:06 AM
sjemac sjemac is offline
 
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Originally Posted by PartTimeHunter View Post
I recently looked into upgrading my PAL to restricted and was stunned when told I couldn't shoot my handgun (when I finally got one) on my property it had to be at a range/gun club. What is the difference to taking my rifles out back and tearing up some paper with them or doing the same with a hand gun? How in the name of ........ does this make sense?
It has been scientifically proven that a 308 round will not leave your property -- they essentially fall dead at the fence line. But a 38 round, when fired from a handgun, will of its own accord leave your property and destroy any small schools nearby.
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Old 08-29-2013, 07:10 AM
PartTimeHunter PartTimeHunter is offline
 
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It has been scientifically proven that a 308 round will not leave your property -- they essentially fall dead at the fence line. But a 38 round, when fired from a handgun, will of its own accord leave your property and destroy any small schools nearby.
But the nearest school is .... ah...1,2,4, cross the river, 10 - 12 miles away. Pretty good range for a 38
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Old 08-28-2013, 11:03 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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The CFOs seem to interpret the rules as they please, and here is the interpretation that they seem to be using.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd/restr-eng.htm

Quote:
Target Shooting Practice and Competition

To be authorized to have restricted firearms for target shooting purposes, an individual must provide proof that he or she practices or competes at an approved shooting club or range. For more information about approved shooting clubs and ranges, contact the appropriate provincial or territorial CFO by calling 1-800-731‑4000.
So in order to target shoot on your own property, you would need to have it approved for restricted weapons, and getting your property approved as a restricted range, won't be easy to do.
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Old 08-29-2013, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
The CFOs seem to interpret the rules as they please, and here is the interpretation that they seem to be using.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd/restr-eng.htm

Quote:
Target Shooting Practice and Competition

To be authorized to have restricted firearms for target shooting purposes, an individual must provide proof that he or she practices or competes at an approved shooting club or range. For more information about approved shooting clubs and ranges, contact the appropriate provincial or territorial CFO by calling 1-800-731‑4000.


So in order to target shoot on your own property, you would need to have it approved for restricted weapons, and getting your property approved as a restricted range, won't be easy to do.
I know my english "aint no good" but the way I read that statement is that to own the handgun you have to belong to the range. It doesn't say anything about shooting said gun anywhere (e.g. in your back 40).

ergo - if you belong to a club then you can shoot in the field.
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Old 08-31-2013, 12:16 PM
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As a long time member of the NFA, I recall reading in one of their journals the exact question , if a membership is legally required to own a restricted firearm. The NFA answered that it is not a requirement legally by law that you must be a member of a certified club , and that you can inform the CFO that it is not a legal requirement, but the CFO will most likely just refuse to issue an ATT, and many gun shops tell you that you must have an approved range membership to purchase a restricted firearm, which according to the NFA is simply not so. It's a classic case of the blind leading the blind, and the CFO making up rules as they go along. This needs to change and fast, and it will only happen if we yell loud enough, CFO's have way too much say, but parliament probably gave them such authority just keep them out of their face.
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Old 08-31-2013, 12:23 PM
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Best course of action I can see is to send a Notice of Understanding to the CFO about the lack of conditions for the discharge of a restricted firearm on personal property and ask for a response within a set time frame. Send the letter out at least twice, better if you did it in triplicate, certified mail so you can be sure it was received, and await a response. If no response is forth coming follow it up with a Notice of Intent declaring you will be using your restricted on your property in a safe manner, give them a set time frame to respond and then have at it.

Responses must counter your claims on a point by point basis, so make sure you get your ducks in a row. Anything not countered in a response is accepted as truth. It may require some back and forth correspondence, but at least you'll get to the bottom of things and if LEOs come to you about it you've got documentation to back yourself up with.
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Old 08-31-2013, 03:08 PM
OpenRange OpenRange is offline
 
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I'm sure it's illegal, and no I can't produce the exact laws. But there are so many people doing it that I'm sure unless your doing something reckless and horribly irresponsible the police just look the other way. I have 5 or 6 friends who are police officers and they bring their handguns out to my place to shoot quite often, personal handguns of course, though I would like to shoot their service handguns.
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Old 08-31-2013, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenRange View Post
I'm sure it's illegal, and no I can't produce the exact laws. But there are so many people doing it that I'm sure unless your doing something reckless and horribly irresponsible the police just look the other way. I have 5 or 6 friends who are police officers and they bring their handguns out to my place to shoot quite often, personal handguns of course, though I would like to shoot their service handguns.
But of course there are different rules for the cops than for us lowly peons.

I wouldn't trust any cop to look the other way, after all it is their job to enforce the laws of the land, or make them up as they see fit.
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Old 08-31-2013, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by OpenRange View Post
I'm sure it's illegal, and no I can't produce the exact laws. But there are so many people doing it that I'm sure unless your doing something reckless and horribly irresponsible the police just look the other way. I have 5 or 6 friends who are police officers and they bring their handguns out to my place to shoot quite often, personal handguns of course, though I would like to shoot their service handguns.
Wow.

So if police do it, at your home, and without an ATT.... what the fudge is the point of the law anyway.

This just goes to prove my point that without a clear, unequivocal and unambiguous section of a firearms Act you can discharge a restricted firearm on your property legally.

Let us know when the cops come to shoot at your place, I'm sure an anonymous tip will speed up answering this question a lot quicker.
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Old 08-31-2013, 04:44 PM
nof60 nof60 is offline
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Originally Posted by OpenRange View Post
I'm sure it's illegal, and no I can't produce the exact laws. But there are so many people doing it that I'm sure unless your doing something reckless and horribly irresponsible the police just look the other way. I have 5 or 6 friends who are police officers and they bring their handguns out to my place to shoot quite often, personal handguns of course, though I would like to shoot their service handguns.
There are provisions in the act for them to do this
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Old 09-01-2013, 01:58 AM
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This thread is a prime example of how law abiding folks are led astray and confused by the ridiculous state of Firearms Law in Canada. That said, some people just assume things are illegal because they think they are without reason (hence why some Canadians believe that it is illegal for a person who is appropriately licensed to hunt Canada Geese).

To the best of my knowledge there are currently no Laws on the books saying that a rural resident whom is in possession of sufficient licensure (PAL with Restricted endorsement) and registration can not legally discharge a Restricted firearm on their property.

Instances of police shooting in rural private locations backs this up, yet opens a can worms beyond the scope of this post. Of course, the discharge of any firearm must occur in a safe manner. That said, many Provinces do seem to have laws on the books that make it illegal to hunt with and use Restricted firearms on crown land.

Let us not forget the examples set for us by Canadian firearms owners in 1951. Remember when the government attempted to institute a firearms registry and gave up due to lack of compliance?

If people excercise their priviledges to discharge their legally owned firearms on their own property it will be known to be common place and such actions can dispell the myths that some people take as law.
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Old 09-01-2013, 08:47 AM
antmai antmai is offline
 
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There are provisions in the act for them to do this
I am of a distinct understanding that that provision is only for their restricted service weapons(pistol, rifle, etc). That provision mostly originates from the fact that LEO's can carry without RPAL or ATT. Personal weapons require both.
I fully appreciate the ambiguous interpretation of the 'elusive' authorized location of discharge; I think it can be agreed upon, however, that if you are allowed to shoot on your own property, it is your property that you must shoot on. Not a buddy's.
When it is stated that 'people shoot on my land', might that person actually be one of the few with an approved range?
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Old 09-01-2013, 02:49 PM
Back Country Hunter Back Country Hunter is offline
 
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Originally Posted by nof60 View Post
Can someone please point to the exact part of the firearms act that prohibits the discharge of restricted weapons on your own property assuming of course that the said property is rural, your residence and that discharge of firearms is done safely.

Thanks
First off let me say that I am all for being able to use restricted weapons anywhere on my farm. However section 17 of the firearms act states that these weapons may only be possessed at your "dwelling-house" or at a place authorized by the CFO (a gun range for example). So while your registration certificate may list your rural address as your home it would appear that the only place at your rural address that you are allowed to "possess" or handle your restricted weapon is at your dwelling-house. On the other hand this should also make shooting off your attached deck acceptable and legal?
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Old 09-01-2013, 03:17 PM
Wild&Free Wild&Free is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Back Country Hunter View Post
First off let me say that I am all for being able to use restricted weapons anywhere on my farm. However section 17 of the firearms act states that these weapons may only be possessed at your "dwelling-house" or at a place authorized by the CFO (a gun range for example). So while your registration certificate may list your rural address as your home it would appear that the only place at your rural address that you are allowed to "possess" or handle your restricted weapon is at your dwelling-house. On the other hand this should also make shooting off your attached deck acceptable and legal?
All the act pertains to is the possession, not the use of. If it does not say you cannot do it, then it does not say you cannot do it.
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Old 09-01-2013, 03:45 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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All the act pertains to is the possession, not the use of. If it does not say you cannot do it, then it does not say you cannot do it.
Unless you are using some type of remote device to fire it, you have to possess it, in order to fire it.
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Old 09-01-2013, 04:14 PM
Wild&Free Wild&Free is offline
 
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Unless you are using some type of remote device to fire it, you have to possess it, in order to fire it.
Shoot out your window then. There is nothing in the act that says you cannot discharge your weapon on your own property. And if it is registered to the land, and not the numbered address of the house, the loophole is complete.


Also, it is illegal to posses a controlled substance, but not illegal to use them.
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