Military Snipers

[markg]

We on this forum talk about reloading methods, equipment, and techniques that result in hyper accurate ammo. I was wondering if Canadian Military Snipers handload, or do they get match ammo or better supplied to them? If they handload are they compensated for the components by the military or government?

I look forward to hearing from those of you in the know.

[CanadianPsycho]

From talking with guys in the know its all match grade off the shelf ammo. I heard CSOR at least recently signed a contract for supply of Swiss RUAG ammo for their .338s.

[couleefolk]

I was wondering the same thing. With all the effort long range shooters put into their shells, I was thinking some of them may shoot better than our snipers. Would be interesting to put a team of Canada's best long range shooters against a team of Canadian snipers.

[ramonmark]

'Hammerhead' care to reply or shed some light on this question?

[catnthehat]

Any CAF personal will tell you they use factory ammo.
Whether or no RUAG is supplying for the .338 now is another question .
Cat

[JamesB]

Canadian Forces personnel are required to us Canadian Forces ammunition. There is no scope for reloading for military use. If you think about it for a second, how exactly would the logistics network supply deployed troops?
Furthermore service ammunition needs to be packaged appropriately for both transport and storage and the ammunition itself requires waterproof sealing of primers and bullets, flash reducing powders, and bullets that in some cases would be prohibited (API, Incendiary, explosive etc).

[bobtodrick]

Keep in mind that a military sniper's main duty is reconnaissance, not shooting.
So as in everything, I'm sure there are some hobbyists that can outshoot a sniper. And I mean no disrespect with the term 'hobbyist'...that happens all the time.
Some of the best photos have been taken by amateurs.
Some incredible songs come from people who've never made a dime from their music.
Etc, etc.
The sniper, like any pro has a very wide skill set (not just shooting) as is paid because he gets the job done no matter what.
There are likely some shooters on this forum who could shoot as well as any sniper...as long as there was no possibility of someone shooting back

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by ramonmark

'Hammerhead' care to reply or shed some light on this question?

"Hammerhead" hey that's a term I use at work....

Put lots of rounds down range during my time and never seen the fella on the bench reloading for us...maybe they had a few remf' doing this task back in garrison sipping on a bubbly!

[Robmcleod82]

Most guys talk a lot of smack about factory ammo, but i would bet that if most people could afford to shoot lapua, black hills, or federal gold medal match ammo they would probably be stunned by the performance of it.

[Hammerhead]

They don't reload. It's match ammunition.

Originally Posted by couleefolk

I was wondering the same thing. With all the effort long range shooters put into their shells, I was thinking some of them may shoot better than our snipers. Would be interesting to put a team of Canada's best long range shooters against a team of Canadian snipers.

You're comparing apples to oranges here I'm afraid. There's many more skills involved in being a sniper than putting rounds inside a 10 ring. When shooting is your only focus, then I'm sure that a team of competitive shooters could probably fair pretty well against a team of Canadian Snipers if you're sitting on a bench flinging lead at known distances. As you said, when you have ammunition that's tailored to a specific rifle, and a specific rifle that's built with a specific purpose... you're probably going to do alright. But if you get into a snipers sandbox with unknown distances, stress shoots and stalking... they're probably going to get decimated.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by Robmcleod82

Most guys talk a lot of smack about factory ammo, but i would bet that if most people could afford to shoot lapua, black hills, or federal gold medal match ammo they would probably be stunned by the performance of it.

Any time I have tried Gold Medal Match it has made me scratch my head and wonder why I bother to reload. That's the truth.

[Viking Caliber]

Originally Posted by JamesB

Canadian Forces personnel are required to us Canadian Forces ammunition. There is no scope for reloading for military use. If you think about it for a second, how exactly would the logistics network supply deployed troops?
Furthermore service ammunition needs to be packaged appropriately for both transport and storage and the ammunition itself requires waterproof sealing of primers and bullets, flash reducing powders, and bullets that in some cases would be prohibited (API, Incendiary, explosive etc).

x2, exactly what I would have said.
Since he beat to it.

V. Caliber
Canadian Forces Veteran

[Coyotebutcher]

Originally Posted by sns2

Any time I have tried Gold Medal Match it has made me scratch my head and wonder why I bother to reload. That's the truth.

So you don't realize that it's about $2.50/round vs less than a dollar to reload?

[6MT]

Originally Posted by sns2

Any time I have tried Gold Medal Match it has made me scratch my head and wonder why I bother to reload. That's the truth.

You must have money to burn. I can reproduce a .308 168gr Gold Medal match for half the cost. And, I use Lapua brass to boot.

[Scottmisfits]

Originally Posted by Coyotebutcher

So you don't realize that it's about $2.50/round vs less than a dollar to reload?

Originally Posted by 6MT

You must have money to burn. I can reproduce a .308 168gr Gold Medal match for half the cost. And, I use Lapua brass to boot.

For some people, they don't enjoy reloading or they are just to busy. Your time cost's as well. On the other hand, if you treat it as a hobby, the time factor goes away. I don't mind the loading and testing part but I hate the brass work so when I do it, I normally do 50-100 at a time.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Scottmisfits

For some people, they don't enjoy reloading or they are just to busy. Your time cost's as well. On the other hand, if you treat it as a hobby, the time factor goes away. I don't mind the loading and testing part but I hate the brass work so when I do it, I normally do 50-100 at a time.

Yup minimum 50 once the load is developed, usually during a crappy weather day!

[couleefolk]

Originally Posted by Hammerhead

They don't reload. It's match ammunition.



You're comparing apples to oranges here I'm afraid. There's many more skills involved in being a sniper than putting rounds inside a 10 ring. When shooting is your only focus, then I'm sure that a team of competitive shooters could probably fair pretty well against a team of Canadian Snipers if you're sitting on a bench flinging lead at known distances. As you said, when you have ammunition that's tailored to a specific rifle, and a specific rifle that's built with a specific purpose... you're probably going to do alright. But if you get into a snipers sandbox with unknown distances, stress shoots and stalking... they're probably going to get decimated.

I beg to differ. There may be a few long range shooters that stick to one distance, but I believe most like to know they can hit anything at any range. I wouldn't suggest a competition for shooting under stress either, I would just like to see a strictly shooting match. Yes there are some differences, such as one shooter has lives depending on them compared to shooting for pleasure, but all I would like to see is the competition. You just have to take a look at all the folks wanting to hunt at over 1000 yards these days, some of them can apparently do it very well, lots of math has to go into hunts like that too.

[bobtodrick]

I was on hand once for an EPS tactical training shoot.
It started with a 100yd run carrying 20kg in each hand. Then 10 squat thrusts and 10 pushups.
Then they got behind the rifle.
That I imagine would knock about 50% of 'competitive' shooters right there.

[Bigmountainrider]

The only difference between standard issue rounds and marksman rounds is the blue or black -MATCH stamp on the packaging. No re-loading is done by serviceman for service use.

[couleefolk]

Originally Posted by bobtodrick

I was on hand once for an EPS tactical training shoot.
It started with a 100yd run carrying 20kg in each hand. Then 10 squat thrusts and 10 pushups.
Then they got behind the rifle.
That I imagine would knock about 50% of 'competitive' shooters right there.

I would only be interested in a shooting match, not a physical capability match also. You take a guy that works a regular job and shoots for pleasure, against someone who shoots for a living, set them up on a range where they can take their time, and lay some lead down. If I wanted to see actual sniper competition, I would say it should be between different countries, to see how ours stacks up against others on an even playing field.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by couleefolk

I would only be interested in a shooting match, not a physical capability match also. You take a guy that works a regular job and shoots for pleasure, against someone who shoots for a living, set them up on a range where they can take their time, and lay some lead down. If I wanted to see actual sniper competition, I would say it should be between different countries, to see how ours stacks up against others on an even playing field.

All the real snipers that I have known or do know that are still living , all shoot or shot competitively at one time in civilian matches as well and did extremely well nationally and Internationally.
They used their own ammo and rifles when shooting civilian matches, and issue kit in military competitions.
Cat

[markg]

Hey Cat, do most former military guys gravitate to Fclass shooting or PRS style shooting?

It would seem to me that PRS would be more like what they do at work.

Another question for those of you in LAW enforcement. What type of ammo do the RCMP sharpshooters use? DO the city of Calgary and Edmonton SWAT teams use something similar to each other or the RCMP?

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by markg

Hey Cat, do most former military guys gravitate to Fclass shooting or PRS style shooting?

It would seem to me that PRS would be more like what they do at work.

It varies, some don't shoot at all.
Cat

[6.5x47 lapua]

Originally Posted by markg

Hey Cat, do most former military guys gravitate to Fclass shooting or PRS style shooting?

It would seem to me that PRS would be more like what they do at work.

Another question for those of you in LAW enforcement. What type of ammo do the RCMP sharpshooters use? DO the city of Calgary and Edmonton SWAT teams use something similar to each other or the RCMP?

come to the opening match this weekend.i will introduce you to a former royal marine sniper who shoots open and you can get your info from the horses mouth.

[bobtodrick]

Originally Posted by couleefolk

I would only be interested in a shooting match, not a physical capability match also. You take a guy that works a regular job and shoots for pleasure, against someone who shoots for a living, set them up on a range where they can take their time, and lay some lead down. If I wanted to see actual sniper competition, I would say it should be between different countries, to see how ours stacks up against others on an even playing field.

Check this out. A very good DVD (IMO) of exactly what you describe...a competition that is held in the 'States every year or two that pits various countries sniper teams against each other (including Canada, who tends to do quite well.)
https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[markg]

Originally Posted by 6.5x47 lapua

come to the opening match this weekend.i will introduce you to a former royal marine sniper who shoots open and you can get your info from the horses mouth.

I had every intention of participating in the match. Unfortunately I am still having some issues with my hearing and until i get those resolved I wont be doing any shooting. I thought about coming out and just watching but until I have the hearing stuff worked out I am going to err on the side of caution.

I havent pulled a trigger in almost 3 weeks, my finger is getting ichy!

[Hammerhead]

The Canadian Military also hosts a sniper event each year with military snipers from all around the world and Canadian police sniper teams.
This is the type of competition I was referring to...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ud96f4rpd7o

[catnthehat]

I may be mistaken but the last time I spoke with someone ( a sponsor of the sniper concentration) civilian spectators were not allowed.

One sniper I know will not even comment on it
Cat

[6.5x47 lapua]

Originally Posted by markg

I had every intention of participating in the match. Unfortunately I am still having some issues with my hearing and until i get those resolved I wont be doing any shooting. I thought about coming out and just watching but until I have the hearing stuff worked out I am going to err on the side of caution.

I havent pulled a trigger in almost 3 weeks, my finger is getting ichy!

unfortunately sunday is canceled which is the palma distances of 700 to 900m due to predicted weather.

[Hammerhead]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

I may be mistaken but the last time I spoke with someone ( a sponsor of the sniper concentration) civilian spectators were not allowed.

One sniper I know will not even comment on it
Cat

That is correct, it's a closed event. Basically just sniper teams, coaches and the staff running the ranges. It's more of a sharing of knowledge kind of thing.