Thanks Dad!!!

[gopher]

The second brass looks like a real gem as well.

[densa44]

I agree that I don't think Remington is going to write back and tell what almost blinded the shooter, so we need to rely on our own experts.

See if I'm keeping up; part of the neck is still jammed in the throat
The case was ripped in two as the bolt flew back as if it was never locked up.
Part of the action was damaged from the explosive release of gas.

What could have made the case and neck separate in the barrel? Could any obstruction in the barrel play a role.

What about an over sized bullet? What bigger size will fit in a .243 case? Was the bolt locked up and then failed at ignition?

The only help I can provide is I have never found a powder/bullet combination for a .243 that has enough case capacity to hold a double charge. Are 6 mm cartridges the same size as .243?

This troubles me a lot, I just shoot bolt actions but I'd feel better if our members can figure out what caused this. THX.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Dean2

Keg

I agree about a totally unsupported case. We used to shoot the primers on 12 gauges with 22s from 25 yards. The empty case would come back 20 yards and the shot would stay in the bale. That said, there is a big difference when the case is partly supported. In this case, the bullet still is blocking the gas escape until it exits the barrel. That means the round develops its full SAMI pressure of 50-60,000 psi. In the case of this failure a lot of that pressure went back and down rather than out the barrel.

It's got me flumaxed too.

The case ruptured at the base of the chamber so judging by the damage the case must have been about a 1/4 of the way out of the chamber. It's odd that the hammer would even strike the firing pin with enough force to detonate the primer with the bolt that far out.
I'm not familiar with this particular action but the actions I have worked on simply wouldn't fire with the bolt that far back.

On most bolts the body is machined so it is impossible to drop the hammer until the bolt is very close to locked. Or properly locked.

The .06 I hunt with came to me with a unintentional firing problem but it fired as one was moving the bolt handle down. At that point the bolt was at least 90 percent into position, not 75 percent as seen in this case.

That turned out to be a simple matter, the gun had been used as a club in a drunken brawl and the action was slightly bent as a result. That bend drew the trigger away from the sear.
As one rotated the bolt handle down it lifted the bolt up and clear of the trigger sear releasing the hammer, at which point the rifle would fire of course.

I straightened the action and have been using the rifle ever since with no issues. 30 years and counting.

I don't know, maybe it was a slam fire, but if so I suspect the primer must have not been completely seated.
The slam fires I've heard of were caused by considerable force being applied to the rifle such is in a fall or something striking the rifle hard.
The OP made no mention of any violent action taking place prior to the incident.

It simply isn't making a lot of sense to me.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by densa44

Are 6 mm cartridges the same size as .243?

Very close to the same.

6mm 243
-----------------------------------------------
Neck OD. .276 .276
Case OAL 2.282 2.709
Base Di. .471 .473
Shoulder Di. .429 .454


My brother hunts with a 6mm Rem.

[wildbill]

man oh man, that's a real beaut gift right there, hahaha, but seriously yer lucky it wasn't worse, got lucky like fps russia when he blowed up the truck with the tannerite and, the big chunk of metal almost cut him in half. makes me wonder..........with christmas around the corner what will yer dad will buy you fer christmas?......reminds me of the farm film review with john candy and joe flarherty "he got blowed up real good"

[shortaction]

#1 - Firearm should not have fired out of battery? Maybe someone in the past disassembled the bolt for cleaning and didn't get things back together properly?

#2 - Why did the round not chamber properly? Have you checked the remaining rounds in the box of ammo? Look at the bullet diameter, not the brass. Just wondering if there was a mix up at the factory and there was a larger diameter bullet stuffed into the 243win case? But it could have just been something the bullet picked up that stopped it chambering properly? Did the bullet still hit the target or is it still in the barrel?

Very lucky!!!

Thanks for posting.

[fenceline]

The chamber is large even for a semi!! Look at the fired intact case ,
Possible rupture ??

[Bergerboy]

Originally Posted by fenceline

The chamber is large even for a semi!! Look at the fired intact case ,
Possible rupture ??

X2.

Can you post a picture of an unfired cartridge beside the "fired but still intact" case? Something looks wonky.

[super7mag]

Glad you are ok , definitely fired while not locked in full battery as others have said.
I'm curious on ammunition? What brand?
And I think you should donate that rifle to an outdoors/ shooting program , having a reminder for young men and women starting to hunt or shooting sports , safety first motto.

[Unregistered user]

Pics of the barrel?

[Dick284]

To get a Remmy semi to fire outta battery as this one appears to have done, would take a whole bunch of things to get lined up.

Something is missing here.



OP.

Do you have any pics of fired brass from this rifle, that are from just before this incident?

Can you confirm the rifle was indeed chambered in .243.

Can you provide details on the ammunition you were using at the time of the incident.

[Pathfinder76]

Pass the bolt gun with dual aposing locking lugs please.

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by chuck

Pass the bolt gun with dual aposing locking lugs please.

Yes sir. That or the one with 9 rear bolt lugs, or the one with a falling block.

[Full Curl Earl]

There a few relatively common issues with these rifles, especially a used one.
If someone has attempted a barrel swap or head space correction on this rifle and not understood the receiver sleeve and its role in timing and headspace, I believe this could be the result. A sticky bolt lock and bad headspace and the recipe is there.
Never buy a used Remington 742, 7400, 760 or 7600 without checking headspace and lockup.
The Pump series often have issues with applying forward pressure on pump sometimes freeing the lock and taking bolt out of battery slightly, and discharging results in the pump/forend flying wildly to the rear.This usually isn't an issue unless shooting off of a rest, in a range scenario.
There are a lot of these rifles produced, and frankly I'm surprised there aren't more injuries, as I've seen more of these needing help than any other firearm made.

[Redneck 7]

I wonder if you had the wrong round in there, I had a Remington box of ammo calibre was .243 and when I was loading my magazine I noticed one of the rounds was a 30-30!! So I wonder if that could have been a possibility. Different calibre but still a short action was loaded and hence the bolt not closing.

[Jayba]

I thought I'd update. I am waiting on Remington USA to tell Gravel what to do. I have filled out their paperwork and have sent my pictures.
They asked if I had the magazine? So I went back to the range and luckily the garbage hadn't been looked after so I found all the magazine parts. I also did bring a large magnet and sweep around the bench where it all went down. I did find these 3 little pieces. One for sure is from my bolt. Not sure about the snap ring and the torn up looking one.
We shall see how it all rolls out.

[Jayba]

Originally Posted by Redneck 7

I wonder if you had the wrong round in there, I had a Remington box of ammo calibre was .243 and when I was loading my magazine I noticed one of the rounds was a 30-30!! So I wonder if that could have been a possibility. Different calibre but still a short action was loaded and hence the bolt not closing.

It definitely was a .243. The cartridge stamp is still visible.
Good thought though

Jay

[Jayba]

Originally Posted by densa44

I agree that I don't think Remington is going to write back and tell what almost blinded the shooter, so we need to rely on our own experts.

See if I'm keeping up; part of the neck is still jammed in the throat
The case was ripped in two as the bolt flew back as if it was never locked up.
Part of the action was damaged from the explosive release of gas.

What could have made the case and neck separate in the barrel? Could any obstruction in the barrel play a role.

What about an over sized bullet? What bigger size will fit in a .243 case? Was the bolt locked up and then failed at ignition?

The only help I can provide is I have never found a powder/bullet combination for a .243 that has enough case capacity to hold a double charge. Are 6 mm cartridges the same size as .243?

This troubles me a lot, I just shoot bolt actions but I'd feel better if our members can figure out what caused this. THX.

The barrel is free of obstructions at this point. The neck of the cartridge is still on the cartridge. The shoulder and neck changed shape by going off in the chamber not fully inserted. I'm leaning towards the bolt not being locked in.
My beef I expressed with Remington is that I was able to pull the trigger before it was fully chambered.
Remington will never say it's the gun, just like the 700 trigger fiasco. It's always a cleaning and maintenance problem. I don't really care if they don't wish to admit any fault, I'm out a deer gun and a pair of clean shorts and if they looked after that I'd call it even.

[Jayba]

Bump and an update.

I heard back from Remington. Here is what I recieved.

Jay:
I receive word from Remington USA , this is something you need to work with Winchester on. This rifle was damaged by the ammo used."


Needless to say I wasn't impressed, nor surprised. I was a busy boy gathering information while waiting for a reply.
I was fuming after this cop out explanation. My email response was lengthy and hopefully my anger didn't get the best of me. I hit send prior to a cool down peroid. But at this point, who gives a Frick.

my response is as follows:


"Dear J*******

With regard to Remington attempting to assign culpability to Winchester seems prototypical of their business model.

I conduct investigations as a profession, and have treated this event no different.

That being said, the rifle has been to a reputable and experienced gunsmith here in Alberta, as I wanted unbiased documentation from a renound expert prior to Remington possibly requesting the firearm.

The gunsmith and builder has assured me it was NOT ammunition that caused the catastrophic failure, but a design flaw of the firearm itself.

After receiving your email response today, I requested the RCMP lab to examine the firearm, and conclude their own theorem. As this possibly could be an ongoing public safety matter in need of further examination.

I had also contacted Winchester in anticipation of the Remington animadversion*of their cartidge, or any variable out of Remingtons control. Proactive initiative and/or responsibility for the malfuntion of a firearm is atypical for Remington and quite unpropitious.

I have been assured any SAAMI specification cartridge will operate satisfactorily in a Remington firearm. Variation of bullet weight, jacketing, shape, powder, charge etc. within SAAMI manufacturer specifications will impede or facilitate accuracy contingent*on the firearm.

Searching for a more precise bullet over the typical Remington Core Lokt ammunition I hunt with, I purchased a box of Winchester cartidges. The rifle then has a catastrophic failure, in which the bullet casing clearly demonstrates the bullet was not in full battery when the rifle allowed the trigger to engage the firing pin. The chamber and/or throat of the barrel shows no wear, deformation, obstruction, damage or evidence of a bullet other than the intended .243 sized bullet passed through it.
So I am expected to believe the failure was caused by the ammunition? The ammunition allowed me to pull the trigger and contact the firing pin on a partially chambered round? Remingtons response is*prevarication and little more.

I am disgusted by the adaucity of Remington in that I will accept that explanation. The evidence shows the cartidge was not fully chambered when the trigger was pulled and strike the firing pin. Why? Is this a public safety item or an isolated event? The fact that Remington has no interest in examination of the firearm makes me conclude one of two things
1)Remington has no interest in finding the cause and consequently interest in the safety of their product
2)Is a recognized problem and this is just another recorded event and there is no need for examination

I have been an advocate for Remington 700 rifles for years. Even through the whole "Remington moment" trigger fiasco. I own multiple precision rifles built off the 700. I on too many occasions to count, have advised others online and in my life that a Remington barreled action is a good base rifle to work off of. For a number of reasons, such as aftermarket accessability of parts like bolts and items like triggers. Plus the support from chassis manufacturers such as Cadex, McMillan and Accuracy International.

Times have changed, these manufacturers now support a wide range of quality manufacturers such as Siko/Tikka, Howa, Ruger, Surgeon and many more.

I was hoping for a great opportunity to share my story of Remington turning a painful and horrible situation into a story of reaffirming brand loyalty. Many in my life as well as online have shown interest in the outcome of this scary situation, and is a great opportunity for Remington.

My profession is one where firearms are near and dear to many of us, and my friends and large family also participate in shooting sports. Please allow my boisterous personality to continue having great things to say about Remington. Its your kairotic moment.

My expectation is that the rifle will be replaced.

I look forward to your response.

Very best regards"

At the beginning of this I just wanted to know what went wrong. And jokingly thought maybe a "sorry buddy, here's a gun....have fun shooting" I don't even need an admission of fault or responsibility. Just acknowledge what really happened and ownership/backing of a poorly designed product.

But now I'm ticked off and I want it replaced. I have one more angle I can explore but we shall see if that works out.

In the meantime, hope you had a laugh at my expense......

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by 3blade

Glad you're ok.

Just spitballing here...you "gave it some oil"....I'm wondering if that oil made the brass too slick in the chamber and the full force came backwards onto the bolt on firing.

See the reloading sticky at the top for why you should never lube a chamber, or allow oil to get in there. The brass needs to grip the chamber walls to fire safely.

Excellent point. Glad it turned out they way it did.

[Jayba]

Rick at Alberta Tactical Rifle looked at my gun and was a great help. Of course he couldn't say with certainty what happened but offered some possible insight. Here is an excerpt from his response.

------"It appears to me that an out of battery discharge has taken place with catastrophic results. I am basing my opinion on what the recovered casing looks like. Typically with a “hot load” the case head is significantly damaged as your shows, however the rest of the casing remains inside the chamber and is not distorted much if at all. The casing from your rifle has been blown out in the neck area which leads me to believe it was discharged out of battery.
There can be a few scenarios that could be the cause.
The 742 has a 1 piece firing pin from factory, yet in looking at the remains of your rifle it appears that the firing pin is in fact 2 pieces. I can move the rearward piece separately from the front piece of the firing pin. IF, and I am speculating here as frankly no-one will ever know for certain, if the firing pin broke at some point in the last 40 plus years the rifle could still have functioned without problem. However if before the very last shot occurred some form of contamination was introduced into the bolt, or the firing pin stuck in the fired position, it is possible that the forward part of the firing pin stayed protruding and during the cycling discharged the round prior to full bolt engagement.

In all honesty I doubt anyone could ever claim with certainty exactly what happened and why.
Reading the response from J**** at Gravel agency, it seems that Remington is blaming the ammo. Over the last few years several ammunition manufacturers have started to load their ammo hotter than in years gone by. We have experienced rifles being damaged to some degree by the use of *****, ****** and Winchester ammo due to how hot they are loading. Fortunately not to the degree of damage you have experienced."

He suggested I contact Winchester, but I have not. I feel it is like chasing a unicorn at this point. It's all speculative.
Ricks explanation makes sense and that's all I really wanted, not a response of "Its the ammo" I received from Remington without explanation the first go round.

So this one is done, I have given the gun to a PAL instructor I know to use as a prop in his course.

Cheers

Jay

[Dean2]

Thanks for posting the update. Too bad Remington just will not stand behind their products. They are so afraid of legal action they just deny, deny, deny. They make an inferior product and won't back it. Seems pretty clear a guy wants to be buying from someone else.

Good part is, you didn't get hurt and the gun will get used for a good purpose.

[Jayba]

Bump

[FellSwoop]

This is concerning as there are still allot of 742 Woodsmasters out there. I have one that is in great shape in 6mm Rem that I use as a backup. In fact my nephew used it last season when his scope got bumped on his rifle last season. He dropped a nice 4X4 whitetail with it displaying excellent shooting skills at a running target. What would it have been like if that rifle would have exploded when the young fellow was using it?

[Dewey Cox]

How old is this gun?
And at what point do people think it stops being Remington's problem? (Serious question. A year? Five years?)

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by Dewey Cox

How old is this gun?
And at what point do people think it stops being Remington's problem? (Serious question. A year? Five years?)

This has nothing to do with the age of the gun. It is an inherint design defect that Remington refuse to fix. A disproportianitly high number of their semi auto and pump guns fire out of battery. Compare that to the Browning BAR, that despite use in war time conditions as well as civilian use, never has this happen. AR does it too but you never see an AK do it. Design makes a big difference.

[Dewey Cox]

Surely at some point, the age of the gun has to matter?

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by Dewey Cox

Surely at some point, the age of the gun has to matter?

I would agree that at some point age matters but with a well built gun wear will affect them long before pure age. I am shooting guns more than 290 years old and the age does not impact their functionality v

In tha case of the Rem 742 they fail. New and throughout their service lives. Wear doesnt make the failure more likely except to the extent the more often you fire it the more liky the dfect is to show up.

[fps plus]

Wow glad your not hurt

Understanding how semi auto work as they are designed not to fire unless the bolt is in battery. Obviously something failed .

Firearms are designed so that if the bolt is not in full battery it will not fire . It goes for rifles shotguns and pistols . Some have disconnects ,other if the bolt is not fully rotated the firing pin will not protrude far enough to hit the primer

[Jayba]

Its kind if a crummy design I guess. The gun was 40 years old, and there is always the arguement that it should have been looked at by a gunsmith regularly yada yada.....but we do put a certain amount of trust in designers embedding redundancy into the firearm. I am a bit disappointed in Remington, and my hard earned money will go elsewhere. Maybe someday a modern hunter from Alberta Tactical Rifle, or my next precision gun I build will be built off a Tikka or other quality action. Remington had a chance to retain my loyalty, and they dropped the ball. Oh well....time to broaden my horizons, and bring my friends with me.