Camping in the Crowsnest Pass

arams · #1 08-25-2015, 06:28 AM

This is a bit of a long read, but I’m looking for some advice on the current situation at Crowsnest Mountain Resort (728106 Alberta Ltd). Does anyone have experience with “buying” a long-term lease in a campground?

We’ve been leasing a campsite at Crowsnest Mountain Resort in Coleman, AB on a yearly basis for 3 years. For many years, the owner tried to get approval from the municipality to subdivide the land so that he could sell the individual campsites, but he hasn’t been able to get approval. I’m not certain why, but it sounds like he hasn’t met some of their requirements.

We’ve now received an email telling us the campground is changing to 35-year leases. We can only keep our campsite by paying for a 35-year lease at the same price he was going to sell (i.e. with title) the site to us. We also received a phone call a couple of weeks ago from David Hamm out of Calgary, who is working to sell the leases – something he told us he has done before in Radium and other places. David also told us a bank Wolfgang (the owner) deals with instructed Wolfgang to hire him… something about the beginning stages of foreclosure that I really didn’t understand. We ended up talking to Wolfgang after the call from David and he told us he had to sell 35 sites, but that there were also other private investors so I’m not sure what that means.

Based on reading the lease agreement (see link to website below), it sounds very risky. It sounds like the owner/manager will charge an annual maintenance fee, but also has the ability to make cash calls whenever he sees fit. I know he intends on building more campsites – it sounds like he could make a cash call to the current leaseholders to do this?!? Also, it sounds like we would be on the hook for any issues with the current water, electricity and sewer systems – I would understand this is we actually owned something, but we wouldn’t.

I also know there are issues with land purchased from Wolfgang to build homes on. There are references to the issues in the Municipality of Crowsnest Pass Council minutes, but the discussions are always ‘in camera’ so there no details. It’s been years since these individuals purchased the land and they still haven’t been able to build their homes.

Does this sound as risky to you as it does to me? I love the area and would love to stay there, but don’t want to pay over $50K for the use of a campsite for 35 years if there is a chance I will have to make significant yearly payments for cash calls. Also, what happens if there are more issues with the bank or private investors? Or even the group of individuals who bought land to build houses? Is there a chance I could lose my investment – pay for the lease and something happens where the campground doesn’t exist anymore? Maybe I’m making too much of this, but it’s a lot of money to pay upfront for a place to camp during the summer!

Here is a link to the website we were sent to access all of the documents:
http://crowsnestmountaininfo.com

What are your thoughts on my situation? Any personal experiences with a similar situation you can share?

qmurphy · #2 08-25-2015, 06:45 AM

I didn't even take the time to refer to the links you posted, but it sounds like too complicated of an agreement for me to consider. Our maker fitted us with those uneasy feelings for a reason, if I were you I'd steer clear.

My guess is that come spring, when nobody else has signed up, he will be willing to do another annual lease on your spot. He wants your cash, and I doubt many others will be willing to sign into the 35yr lease either.

Hope it works out for you, I an imagine you are attached to the area.

Thinlizzy · #3 08-25-2015, 06:46 AM

All I can say is follow your gut. It's telling you something isn't right and in my experience that feeling is usually right.
And yes it sounds fishy to me too.

Hevishot · #4 08-25-2015, 07:25 AM

My buddies folks went through this about 15 ish years ago with the same guy. He wanted to do the same thing and the town voted NO. They ended up buying property elsewhere in the pass and have never been happier.

sullcat · #5 08-25-2015, 07:34 AM

The "deal" offered seems sketchy. there is no information about the financial stability of the campground after the sale. So pay-all-up-front-lease-take-your-chances-bend-over-hand-me-your-wallet-boil-your-water-cash-call-campground-resort.
Sign me up for two.

jcrayford · #6 08-25-2015, 08:10 AM

$50K for 35 years? Works out to +-$1430 per year....

Offer up to pay for it year by year at $1430.... See what he has to say. Then you've committed to the 35 year term, but pay yearly. If next year you get a cash call for an additional $5K and then the very next year another $5K, you can walk away and be out nothing....

But if you pay the $50K total up front, and next year the same $5K cash call comes, followed by another $5K the following year.... You're stuck paying out the cash calls until the 35 years are up - could become VERY costly....

I know of the area you're talking about - there are other spots in the vicinity that could be better. Like others have stated, listen to your gut.... I would have reservations from the limited background you've provided....

J.

Au revoir, Gopher · #7 08-25-2015, 08:33 AM

It sounds like he needs to raise 2 millions dollars or he is out of business... kind of sounds like buying a stake in the Titanic after it hit the iceberg.

ARG

spurly · #8 08-25-2015, 09:16 AM

Wolfgang has been at this for years. The municipality, had come up with stipulations, for him to meet from the very beginning, numerous extensions were given. Check with local newspapers, they will have the articles, archived.
Also check with the CFO of the municipality, they could probably, give you some insight.

bessiedog · #9 08-25-2015, 10:03 AM

PM Inbound!

arams · #10 08-26-2015, 06:35 AM

Thanks for the replies all.

newguy · #11 08-26-2015, 08:16 AM

We love the pass area. We have a place just a couple KMs away near Tecumseh mtn.

Cash calls scare me. Nuff said.

JustBen · #12 08-26-2015, 08:40 AM

Would not touch it.

SilverFire01 · #13 02-07-2018, 10:06 PM

Did you get into the lease or know if anyone who did and the outcome of it, positive or negative? Curious as David Hamm is still doing these 2 year leases, and is in a civil lawsuit as well.

Robotfish · #14 02-08-2018, 09:47 AM

We have a spot at Green Mountain rv just down the road. We pay 3000 a year all utilities included. May be check it out.

journalistdrew · #15 03-26-2018, 09:43 AM

Hi, I'm a journalist with CBC and I'm looking into the situation on Buffalo Lake that involves the same developer.

Does anyone have a copy of a contract for the 35-year leases, or any other information that could prove useful?

I can be reached at drew.anderson@cbc.ca

Thank you.

Selkirk · #16 03-26-2018, 12:22 PM

.
With Beauvais Lake Provincial Park, Beaver Mines Lake Campground, and Chinook Lake Campgrounds being so close to the Crowsnest,
I'd save my money (and the risk ) and just camp at those places instead.

My two centavos,

Selkirk

sako1 · #17 03-26-2018, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selkirk

.
With Beauvais Lake Provincial Park, Beaver Mines Lake Campground, and Chinook Lake Campgrounds being so close to the Crowsnest,
I'd save my money (and the risk ) and just camp at those places instead.

My two centavos,

Selkirk

I'm sure most are aware of the surrounding campsites. Some people want to lease. It's not for me, but I get the easiness of never packing,towing or looking for a spot.

ReconWilly · #18 03-26-2018, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by journalistdrew

Hi, I'm a journalist with CBC and I'm looking into the situation on Buffalo Lake that involves the same developer.

Does anyone have a copy of a contract for the 35-year leases, or any other information that could prove useful?

I can be reached at drew.anderson@cbc.ca

Thank you.

CBC Journalist!