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Old 10-21-2010, 12:12 AM
Sask Hunter Sask Hunter is offline
 
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Default !!!Remington 700 Unsafe says CNBC report!!!

Ok guys this is really serious. I just watched a 1 hour CNBC report on the Remington 700 called "Remington Under Fire" the program claims that the 700 trigger (not the x-mark trigger) has the potential to go off with only the touch of the bolt or by simply taking the safety off.

Documents suggest they knew about it for 50 years and have chosen not to fix it due to cost. Even the old man who originally designed the thing says he tried to get them to fix it, even after he retired. Remington's own documents show that they know there are 10s of thousands of these 700s that have the potential for this problem

A kid was killed in Montana. His Mom was holding the rifle.

There is film showing a police demonstration of the problem. I watched it myself. the guy cycles the bolt, touches the safety or taps the bolt handle, and it goes off. This is real, not the suspicious hearsay of someone who claims "it just went off"

Google this and keep your kids safe.

Has anyone else heard a different side of this?
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Old 10-21-2010, 12:17 AM
steve steve is offline
 
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http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=71524
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  #3  
Old 10-21-2010, 02:44 AM
Sgt.Wales Sgt.Wales is offline
 
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Default need to be smart when you have a firearm in your hands

thats alost a case of watch what you point at, I have seen some guns that are auto and you just have to chamber a round in it and it sharts to fire like that old bren guns in WW2 the would go off all the time
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Old 10-21-2010, 05:22 AM
gitrdun gitrdun is offline
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As I was scanning through the program guide on the sat. dish I did see that program listing but skipped through it as I didn't make the connection with "Remington Arms", now I wished that I'd seen it. Hopefully they have a re-run. I just purchased a 700 LSS Mountain Rifle through a private deal. For sure I'll be testing it and excercising extra precautions. I suppose that the safest course of action would be to replace the trigger.
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Old 10-21-2010, 05:26 AM
deanmc deanmc is offline
 
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Written summary and links to documents in the documentary.


http://www.cnbc.com/id/39554936/
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Old 10-21-2010, 06:20 AM
fatrack fatrack is offline
 
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Well, I guess that why they teach you to never point a firearm at something your not willing to shoot. Sounds like the lady that shot her kid broke the most important rule of firearm safety and I don't blame the "faulty" rifle. Sounds like a great way to bankrupt one the largest firearms companies in the world. I wonder how many millions of these rifles have been made?
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Old 10-21-2010, 07:03 AM
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bought a new 700sps two years ago , I have yet to see any misfire or trouble with the trigger. Oddly enough if I pull the trigger on my anchutz with the safety on it will fire when the safety is released . Watched the last half of the program and brought my rifle out to try and get the safety to malfunction but could not
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Old 10-21-2010, 07:10 AM
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Any adjustable trigger is un-safe when it is "tuned" by someone that should not be "tuning" it. The same thing happened to Ruger
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Old 10-21-2010, 07:14 AM
drthlwsk drthlwsk is offline
 
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Default Remington's Reponse

http://www.remington700.tv/#/home
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  #10  
Old 10-21-2010, 07:24 AM
dgl1948 dgl1948 is offline
 
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Default Some of the things in the program.

The Model 700, including its trigger mechanism, has been free of any defect since it was first produced,” Remington told CNBC in a statement. “And, despite any careless reporting to the contrary, the gun’s use by millions of Americans has proven it to be a safe, trusted and reliable rifle.”

But as early as December 3, 1946, with the gun still in the testing stage, lead engineer Merle “Mike” Walker—who would later receive a patent for the 700 series’ firing mechanism—wrote a memo warning of a “theoretical unsafe condition” involving the gun’s safety; the mechanism that is supposed to keep the gun from firing accidentally.

Four months later, in an April 9, 1947 memo entitled “M/721 Pilot Line Inspection,” Test Engineer Wayne Leek wrote, “This situation can be very dangerous from a safety and functional point of view.”

Among other things, Leek noted, it was “possible to fire the gun by pushing the safety to the ‘off’ position.”

That same malfunction, in which the gun fires when the safety is turned off, is cited in many of the customer complaints that persist to this day
Remington critics, including ballistics experts hired to testify against the company, trace the problems to a basic element of Mike Walker’s original design: a tiny piece of metal called a trigger connector. The connector, which is mounted loosely inside the firing mechanism, is supposed to allow the gun to fire more smoothly, according to Walker’s patent.

But the experts claim that small amounts of rust, debris or even a small jolt can cause the trigger connector to fall out of alignment, and the trigger itself to lose contact with the firing pin. Then, they say, the gun can go off when the user operates other parts of the gun—such as the safety or the bolt—without touching the trigger.

The documents include thousands of complaints from customers about Remington 700s going off without pulling the trigger. But Remington contends that in every case, the inadvertent discharges were the result of user error
Both Remington and experts hired by plaintiff attorneys have conducted testing on guns returned from the field which were alleged to have fired without a trigger pull, and neither has ever been able to duplicate such an event on guns which had been properly maintained and which had not been altered after sale,” the company says in its statement.

But other documents show the company has been able to duplicate the condition. On March 18, 1975, Research Manager John Linde wrote to a Houston gunsmith that Remington “could duplicate” fire control problems on a Remington 700 that had been returned to the factory. And in a March 5, 1980 memo, a Remington employee named E. Hooton, Jr. notes that of 133 rifles returned to the factory for inadvertent firing in the second half of 1979, 44 of the complaints—one-third of the total—were “verified.”

Documents show that in 1948, Mike Walker proposed a change in his original design aimed at eliminating the problem. Walker drew up plans to insert a blocking device that would keep the gun’s internal mechanism from falling out of alignment while the safety is on.

“One modification of the M/721 Safety uses a trigger block in addition to the present design,” Walker wrote in an August 16, 1948 memo entitled “M/721 Modification of Safety design.”

But the change was never implemented.

Executives at Remington’s parent company at the time, DuPont [DD 47.08 --- UNCH (0) ], had already been sending memos about the new rifle being over budget, including a 1947 memo detailing $4,000 in “cost overruns,” and Mike Walker’s design change was more costly than the original. DuPont, which sold Remington in 1993, declined to speak with CNBC, referring inquiries instead to Remington.

While executives acknowledged in a 1948 memo that Walker’s change “is the best design,” they concluded, “its disadvantages lay in the high expenditure required to make the conversion.”

The same memo tallied the additional cost. It came to 5 ½ cents per gun.

On August 31, 1948, Remington patent attorney A. J. Greene laid out the choice in a memo entitled “Model 721 Safety.”

“Our usual potential liability for the safety of our product is augmented somewhat by our knowledge that some Model 721 safeties have misfunctioned (sic),” Greene wrote. “However, our liability does not seem out of proportion to the advantage of retaining the present…construction, pending receipt of further complaints from the field.”

Since then, Remington has produced more than five million rifles with Mike Walker’s original design. But company officials repeatedly considered making changes, according to the documents, in the face of the customer complaints and other reported incidents.

A Remington 700 even malfunctioned during an evaluation by Consumer Reports in 1968, firing when the safety was released. The publication noted that “the malfunction persisted for more than 100 firings,” and warned, “An inexperienced user might have caused a serious accident.” The article, published in March 1968, set off a flurry of activity at Remington, according to the documents.

“Let’s see if we can’t figure a way to build a little more into our guns in this area,” wrote Philip H. Burdett in an April 17, 1968 memo entitled “Model 700 BDL Quality” that discussed possible manufacturing improvements in the wake of the Consumer Reports article.

Another memo by C.B. Workman on July 7, 1970 noted management’s “extreme displeasure” over the article, and said Burdett had “requested that we find a way to evaluate our future designs in order to eliminate similar incidents from further embarrassing our Company.”

In 1979, following a jury verdict that led to the recall of a similar Remington rifle—the Mohawk 600—officials considered whether to recall the more popular 700 series, but decided against it. The minutes of a Remington Product Safety Subcommittee meeting on January 2, 1979 listed two reasons for the decision. First, the minutes say, a Remington analysis had found “only 1%” of the guns could be “tricked” into firing. “That would mean the recall would have to gather 2,000,000 guns just to find 20,000 that are susceptible to this condition,” the minutes say.

In addition, officials concluded, “An attempt to recall all bolt action rifles would undercut the message we plan to communicate to the public concerning proper gun handling.”

In 1994, after a jury ordered Remington to pay $17 million to a Texas oilfield supervisor who lost his foot to a Remington 700, the company again considered a nationwide campaign to replace the controversial trigger on existing guns.

Two weeks after the verdict, on June 1, 1994, Remington executive Kenneth Green wrote a memo entitled “M/700 Trigger Replacement Campaign,” detailing a proposal to “call back” three million Remington 700s produced since 1960. The memo, sent to Remington General Counsel Robert Haskin, even listed publications used to advertise previous recalls
But by 1994, the cost to fix the rifle had risen substantially, according to the memo. No longer 5 ½ cents per gun; the memo put the cost of a recall at nearly $2.7 million. The “call back” quietly died.

The company would not actually change the firing mechanism until 2007, and even then, it did not institute a recall of the Walker trigger models it had been selling for nearly 60 years.

Remington calls the new trigger system the X-Mark Pro. Plaintiffs’ experts who have examined it say the system includes the blocking mechanism originally proposed by Mike Walker in 1948. The X-Mark Pro also does away with the controversial trigger connector. A source close to Remington confirms the trigger connector was removed because it had become the focus of so many lawsuits.

But because Remington still contends the old Walker trigger is safe, it continues to use it in rifles including the current version of the Remington 770, as well as earlier 700 series models still sold by retailers worldwide.
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  #11  
Old 10-21-2010, 07:42 AM
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depopulator depopulator is offline
 
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Some facts are in order here instead of overblown media hype. The following is from the Remington Website http://www.remington.com/pages/news-...-program.aspx:

Remington is extending through December 31, 2010, its Safety Modification Program to remove the bolt-lock mechanism from certain Remington bolt-action centerfire firearms made prior to March, 1982. (Post-1982 bolt-action firearms were not manufactured with bolt-lock mechanisms). To determine whether your firearm has a bolt-lock mechanism and is subject to the safety modification program, click on the model listed below and follow the directions included. The unloading process for most bolt-action firearms with a bolt-lock mechanism cannot begin unless the manual safety is placed in the "F" or "Off or Fire" position. If you participate in the program your firearm will be modified to eliminate the bolt-lock feature and you will be able to unload your firearm while the safety is kept in the "S" or " On Safe" position. The operation of your firearm will not otherwise be affected. Here are the basic program elements:
The firearms will be cleaned and inspected and the bolt lock mechanism will be removed for $20.00 plus shipping and handling. We will return the gun to you with a safety redemption certificate to complete and submit in order to receive a free blaze orange hat. (one hat per certificate) Please click on the centerfire model to obtain more information on the program for the specific model, as there are some differences in the program based on model type:

Model 700 Model 721 Model 722 Model XP-100
Model 600 Model 660 Model 40-X

The following bolt-action centerfire firearms are not subject to the Safety Modification Program. Please click on the model for more information on the firearm.

Model 700 ML Model 710 Model 725 Model 788
Model 78 Model 30 & 30 Express Model Seven

If you have a bolt-action rifle with a bolt-lock mechanism, and you do not wish to have the lock removed, you must be sure to follow this IMPORTANT SAFETY NOTICE: Be sure the rifle is pointing in a safe direction anytime you move the manual safety to the "F" or "Off or Fire" position. As soon as you have lifted the bolt, immediately put the manual safety back in the "S" or "On Safe" position and then continue the unloading process.

Last edited by depopulator; 10-21-2010 at 07:50 AM.
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  #12  
Old 10-21-2010, 07:55 AM
Walleyes Walleyes is offline
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I have been running 700's for a lifetime have a gun cabinet full of them.. My father ran 700's we have never and I mean never had any incident with these guns.. Over all these years as anyone could imagine these rifles have been through about every and anything a gun could go through.. Never an incident... A biased report written by a biased media is what this is..

This just goes to prove the golden rule.. Never,,point a gun at anything that you don't intend to kill.. A gun is always loaded and never,, never trust a gun,, any gun...

It is very unfortunate what happened to that young boy and his mother but unfortunately it wasn't the gun that killed that boy,, it was his mother that killed him..
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Old 10-21-2010, 07:59 AM
dgl1948 dgl1948 is offline
 
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Quote:
Remington is extending through December 31, 2010, its Safety Modification Program to remove the bolt-lock mechanism from certain Remington bolt-action centerfire firearms made prior to March, 1982. (Post-1982 bolt-action firearms were not manufactured with bolt-lock mechanisms
This recall was not to fix the problem outlined in the show. This recall was to let you unload the rifle with the safety on. Proir to this you had to take the rifle off safety to unload.
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Old 10-21-2010, 09:39 AM
Pioneer2 Pioneer2 is offline
 
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That's old news............20 years before it was the model 600 some idiot was unloading in the back seat of a vehicle shooting the driver in the leg....................Harold
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Old 10-21-2010, 09:48 AM
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Huntsman Huntsman is offline
 
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I watched it twice, it ran back to back lastnite. They showed buddy closing the bolt and it goes off..thats pure bogus crap to me. If you adjust the trigger too light..then YA it'll go off. If you don't know what your are doing when farting around with trigger pull, back lash and sear contact..DON"T TOUCH IT!!
Have a proffesional do it, pure & simple.
IMO, that report by CNBC was just "air time". Kinda like Toyota recalls..its in the past move on
I have an SPS too, I did'nt like the factory trigger just cause it sucked (Pre X-Mark Pro) so I installed a Timney. I'd buy another 700 in a heart beat, a BDL Custom Deluxe in 7mm to be exact
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Old 10-21-2010, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walleyes View Post
I have been running 700's for a lifetime have a gun cabinet full of them.. My father ran 700's we have never and I mean never had any incident with these guns.. Over all these years as anyone could imagine these rifles have been through about every and anything a gun could go through.. Never an incident... A biased report written by a biased media is what this is..
Well, I've owned two Toyotas and neither one has ever accelerated unexpectedly nor had any brake problems. Does that mean all the media reports to the contrary were all lies? One of the posts above lists Remington's own limitted admission of problems and the required fix for them.
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Old 10-21-2010, 11:24 AM
Sask Hunter Sask Hunter is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatrack View Post
Well, I guess that why they teach you to never point a firearm at something your not willing to shoot. Sounds like the lady that shot her kid broke the most important rule of firearm safety and I don't blame the "faulty" rifle. Sounds like a great way to bankrupt one the largest firearms companies in the world. I wonder how many millions of these rifles have been made?
What's crazy is that this program shows that the "Ten commandments of Firearm Safety" were originally created by Remington in response to this problem. In sum, instead of fixing the trigger, they told people to point muzzle in a "Safe Direction" the problem with this is that there is no safe direction if you don;t know when it will go off. ricochet, etc.
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Old 10-21-2010, 12:38 PM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sask Hunter View Post
What's crazy is that this program shows that the "Ten commandments of Firearm Safety" were originally created by Remington in response to this problem. In sum, instead of fixing the trigger, they told people to point muzzle in a "Safe Direction" the problem with this is that there is no safe direction if you don;t know when it will go off. ricochet, etc.
X2 Well said!!! There is no "safe direction" during unexpected discharge. Holding into the air may be safe in the imediate area, but what about a mile from the muzzle. Remington needs their b*lls busted on this one and who cares if they go broke...at least there is a chance a responsible owner would pick up the spoils. The estimate of faulty trigger mechanisms was 50,000 of the 5 million produced ...I'm not so comfortable around Remingtons as I was yesterday.
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Old 10-21-2010, 01:42 PM
Walleyes Walleyes is offline
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Well I know what everyone should do... Send me your 700's Yup I'll take em..

I think I will put an add up in the Journal and the Herald.. I will put out the report by CNBC then the fact that I will accept free of charge of course all these dangerous firearms lolol.. I wonder how many I would get ????
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Old 10-21-2010, 01:44 PM
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Well I know what everyone should do... Send me your 700's Yup I'll take em..
LOL and you owe me 10% of them for helping to increase the hysteria
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Old 10-21-2010, 02:29 PM
Sask Hunter Sask Hunter is offline
 
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Holy Cow!!!! Halfton says this happened to his wife last month, and hers in the X-mark Trigger, not the old trigger. (I heard it is simply a slight mod to the old trigger.)

omg.
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Old 10-21-2010, 02:30 PM
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I have a rem 700 classic used it for years never once had it go off on its own,However I went hunting with my nephew once,he had borrowed an older model 700 from a freind.Soon as he closed the bolt on it fired.Safety was off a the time.Luckily the muzzle was pointed in the dirt.We took out all ammo,put the safety on and closed the bolt.Every time we put the safty off it fired as if you pulled the trigger.So it can be an issue with the older ones.Needless to say we left it in the truck and shared my classic for the day.
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Old 10-21-2010, 04:24 PM
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Default Remington's Response

Follow this link

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/
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Old 10-21-2010, 09:59 PM
Sask Hunter Sask Hunter is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pseelk View Post
I have a rem 700 classic used it for years never once had it go off on its own,However I went hunting with my nephew once,he had borrowed an older model 700 from a freind.Soon as he closed the bolt on it fired.Safety was off a the time.Luckily the muzzle was pointed in the dirt.We took out all ammo,put the safety on and closed the bolt.Every time we put the safty off it fired as if you pulled the trigger.So it can be an issue with the older ones.Needless to say we left it in the truck and shared my classic for the day.
Holy Moly.
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Old 10-22-2010, 06:34 AM
gitrdun gitrdun is offline
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Over the years, I've owned a few Remmy's - 700, 721, 755 and I've never had an incident. Currently I have a 700 and my bro a 788. Tried both of them after reading this article. Literally beat the crap out of them and neither would fire. Having said this, I was present when it occured to another hunter. Mind you, this person has no clue about gun maintenance/cleaning. His gun was poorly maintained or cleaned. Of course, he claimed that his finger was nowhere near the trigger....at least that was the claim. Back then, since he was adamant that the safety was on and that his finger was nowhere the trigger, I suggested a trip to the gunsmith. He never took that option. Thus, that was my last hunting excursion with the fellow. I think that his still missing the strip of his loin from having walked into camp with a chambered round, safety or not, too idiotic to even discuss.
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  #26  
Old 10-23-2010, 12:13 AM
winxp_man winxp_man is offline
 
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Its a bunch of
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  #27  
Old 10-23-2010, 08:16 PM
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Of course they are un-safe. frick everyone that buys one replaces the stock and trigger. lol..... ahhhhhhh !! no worries i have a few also. last year it was Tikka with one blown up barrel dude and this year its Remington. i toss it under G... Garbage. Remmies are here to stay.
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Old 10-24-2010, 03:00 PM
Sask Hunter Sask Hunter is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DUKE-1 View Post
Of course they are un-safe. frick everyone that buys one replaces the stock and trigger. lol..... ahhhhhhh !! no worries i have a few also. last year it was Tikka with one blown up barrel dude and this year its Remington. i toss it under G... Garbage. Remmies are here to stay.
Dude, this isn;t just one gun This is an estimated 50 000 rifles with this malfunction. If they were made in canada there would be a giant recall and Remingtom would be out fo business. Because of the US constitution, they cannot be recalled.
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  #29  
Old 10-24-2010, 03:36 PM
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http://www.usatoday.com/money/indust...ger-cnbc_N.htm

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/CNBC/Sec...Rem_Doc_01.pdf

Last edited by JohnS; 10-24-2010 at 03:41 PM.
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  #30  
Old 10-24-2010, 06:28 PM
muleskinner muleskinner is offline
 
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Default Unsafe

Although the reason for the people being shot is unsafe handling that doesn't let Remington off the hook.I have seen this happen when guiding a hunter a few years ago.Also have talked to a friend who quit using a 700 because of this problem.(No trigger mods)
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