Massive explosion in Beirut

[W921]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

Isn’t it ammonium nitrate mixed with diesel that is used for mine blasting? Or at least once was? I would imagine for bulk users like mines, the low cost of those two simple & very common components would offset any performance disadvantages compared to more specialized explosives.

The footage of the fire and small explosions that preceded the big boom makes me think that the initial spark was something different than the ammonium nitrate, perhaps some clown really did store fireworks next to the fertilizer? Or it could have been something like bottled flammable gases.... Those smaller explosions had to be something individually packaged, rather than a bulk substance.

Ammonium nitrate is completely safe. I've trucked tons of it to mines and blasting outfits. Its just fertilizer. Everybody is using it. It needs to be mixed, I know the percentage but I wont post it. Mixed with diesel. Still wont explode unless you have an explosion to set it off.
Even the diesel percentage I believe has to be fairly on.
Most farms use this and store it. You can't just buy it in the spring you have to buy it a head of time.

[Drewski Canuck]

Judging by the Crater in the Harbour, and what was directly behind the Grain Silos (Downtown Beirut) it is clear that things could have been much much worse if the silos did not block the blast from hitting the downtown.

With the first fire / blast, there would have been many people looking out the windows if there was no Covid lockdown as well.

But yes, Lebanon suffers from paralysing corruption which of course lends to the incompetence of the City authorities.

But then again, that could be said for Montreal also.

Drewski

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by W921

Ammonium nitrate is completely safe. I've trucked tons of it to mines and blasting outfits. Its just fertilizer. Everybody is using it. It needs to be mixed, I know the percentage but I wont post it. Mixed with diesel. Still wont explode unless you have an explosion to set it off.
Even the diesel percentage I believe has to be fairly on.
Most farms use this and store it. You can't just buy it in the spring you have to buy it a head of time.

Sorry, that applies to small quantities, same as dynamite, in large concentrations , it can develop enough heat to detonate. The commercial fertilizer is prilled with diatomaceous earth to control moisture and reduce sensitivity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_City_disaster

Grizz

[W921]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

Sorry, that applies to small quantities, same as dynamite, in large concentrations , it can develop enough heat to detonate. The commercial fertilizer is prilled with diatomaceous earth to control moisture and reduce sensitivity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_City_disaster

Grizz

Okay so like urea or ammonium nitrate all comes from the same place south east of Calgary. One load will go to a farm and the next load goes to a mine or blasting company.
If you put 30- 0-0 on your lawn isn't it the same thing? Its all nitrogen fertilizer?
I have hauled hundreds of A train and super b train loads of this stuff years ago.
My memory isn't what it was,believe me I have stress at home. If I'm mixed up I'm sorry but I'm pretty sure I'm right.

[W921]

Haha I just read your link. Well the places I hauled to and from had a fair amount of it and some of the places were blasting with it.
I guess they did not have enough for spontaneous combustion or they put stuff in it tyo prevent it.
Thanks for setting me straight.

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by W921

Okay so like urea or ammonium nitrate all comes from the same place south east of Calgary. One load will go to a farm and the next load goes to a mine or blasting company.
If you put 30- 0-0 on your lawn isn't it the same thing? Its all nitrogen fertilizer?
I have hauled hundreds of A train and super b train loads of this stuff years ago.
My memory isn't what it was,believe me I have stress at home. If I'm mixed up I'm sorry but I'm pretty sure I'm right.

No, ammonium nitrate is 34-0-0 and eyebrows might go up when you go to buy it.

Grizz

[MyAlberta]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

No, ammonium nitrate is 34-0-0 and eyebrows might go up when you go to buy it.

Grizz

Unless you are a known customer, you likely won’t get it. I’m sure inventories will be scrutinized following this mishap.

[W921]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

No, ammonium nitrate is 34-0-0 and eyebrows might go up when you go to buy it.

Grizz

On small bags of fertilizer that you would buy in a hardware store the first numbers on the bag are nitrogen. The second are phosphorus. The third numbers are potassium.you can get different amounts. Example 17-17-17 or whatever numbers of each you want.

[Grizzly Adams]

At this stage of the game, it looks like pure negligence, Justin would say I'm sorry and be done with it, but that won't fly. Big question being if Beirut can ever recover, given their circumstances.? Things don't look good now. A independent inquiry would accomplish little except point fingers and that doesn't matter much in the Middle East, where corruption rules the roost. A totally needless tragedy.

Grizz

[W921]

Remember back in the eighties with Iran and Americans using proxies to bomb there. So many possibilities here.
About the fertilizer. I'm still sceptical about it without it having help. Hutterites actually import this stuff by the boat load into Churchill. Even smaller farms have quansets stuffed full of it.

[daveyn]

Originally Posted by W921

Remember back in the eighties with Iran and Americans using proxies to bomb there. So many possibilities here.
About the fertilizer. I'm still sceptical about it without it having help. Hutterites actually import this stuff by the boat load into Churchill. Even smaller farms have quansets stuffed full of it.

Yes they do, however it generally gets used and replaced and doesn't sit around decomposing for 7 years in a hot, humid warehouse next to a seaport where the humidity would be off the charts on a mild day.

[ghostguy6]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

Sorry, that applies to small quantities, same as dynamite, in large concentrations , it can develop enough heat to detonate. The commercial fertilizer is prilled with diatomaceous earth to control moisture and reduce sensitivity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_City_disaster

Grizz

From the link you posted:

The ammonium nitrate, needed either as fertilizer or an explosive, was manufactured in Nebraska and Iowa and shipped to Texas City by rail before being loaded onto the Grandcamp.[4] It was manufactured in a patented process, mixed with clay, petrolatum, rosin and paraffin wax to avoid moisture caking

Those 3 items are oil based, when you add an oxidizer you asking for trouble.

I work with pure laboratory grade ammonium nitrate, 99.9999% pure and its stable unless you mix it, even then you would need something like a blasting cap to set it off. Its one of the reasons its used so extensively as an industrial explosive.

[CaberTosser]

Originally Posted by W921

Ammonium nitrate is completely safe.

A massive crater in Beirut begs to differ.

Properly handled and stored, yes. But without adequate safeguards, obviously not.

[W921]

Originally Posted by daveyn

Yes they do, however it generally gets used and replaced and doesn't sit around decomposing for 7 years in a hot, humid warehouse next to a seaport where the humidity would be off the charts on a mild day.

In North America fertilizer is bought in the off season because its available and cheaper. I'm using cheaper lightly because even when its cheaper its not cheap. No farm that I know of can afford to not to use it up within a year.
How can anybody afford to sit on that much N for seven years?

[W921]

Originally Posted by ghostguy6

From the link you posted:

Those 3 items are oil based, when you add an oxidizer you asking for trouble.

I work with pure laboratory grade ammonium nitrate, 99.9999% pure and its stable unless you mix it, even then you would need something like a blasting cap to set it off. Its one of the reasons its used so extensively as an industrial explosive.

Thats what I have heard all my life but what do you think of that much of it for 7 years?

[Big Grey Wolf]

My thoughts, we do not need Any Ammonium nitrate fertilizer. Their are so many other nitrogen fertilizer blends to chose from. Only perhaps enough to meet the needs of mining industry. We blew up a couple guys at Suncor when we used it to loosen oilsand for bucket wheels.

[CaberTosser]

Originally Posted by W921

In North America fertilizer is bought in the off season because its available and cheaper. I'm using cheaper lightly because even when its cheaper its not cheap. No farm that I know of can afford to not to use it up within a year.
How can anybody afford to sit on that much N for seven years?

The story was the ship it was on was seized due to not being safe to operate, then it was stuck in port there for months along with its crew. I guess the cargo got offloaded but why it wasn’t sold is a mystery to me, selling seized goods should be easy as the gov’t can either auction it or sell @ below market price for a quick sale. It’s certainly cheaper than tying up storage space for 7 years, and WAY cheaper and preferable to what happened in this tragic but preventable disaster.

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

My thoughts, we do not need Any Ammonium nitrate fertilizer. Their are so many other nitrogen fertilizer blends to chose from. Only perhaps enough to meet the needs of mining industry. We blew up a couple guys at Suncor when we used it to loosen oilsand for bucket wheels.

It has been virtually eliminated from farm use, one alternative being anhydrous ammonia that directly injects the fertilizer into the ground . but that has hazards of it's own, not the least of which is a gas leak.

Grizz

[W921]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

It has been virtually eliminated from farm use, one alternative being anhydrous ammonia that directly injects the fertilizer into the ground . but that has hazards of it's own, not the least of which is a gas leak.

Grizz

Twenty years ago anhydrous was on its way out. More used it in MT than AB but I'm guessing price because their safety standards where way less than ours. Example storing it upwind of small towns with no fences,locks or lights.
I know some guys still use it but not like before.

This is news to me about farms not using n granular fertilizer..

[Big Grey Wolf]

Urea (46-0-0) probably one of the best and safest fertilizers, will not even burn your lawn. However you will need to mow your lawn every 3-4 days and will be greenest lawn on the block or farm.

[ghostguy6]

Originally Posted by W921

Thats what I have heard all my life but what do you think of that much of it for 7 years?

I just looked at the date code on our container, its from April 1992. Its caked together in one large puck. We have no problem chipping off small pieces then grinding it back into powder with a mortar and pestle.

Granted we are not storing 2000 tonnes of it. Even the SDS sheet does not list a flash point for pure ammonium nitrate.

[W921]

There is a lot of politics in food production. Organic at the top levels is,well one time I bought carrots at the grocery store. As I was waiting in line I noticed they were organic and I walked back and put them on the shelf. I couldn't find normal carrots so I went without. This was because of the principal of it,not the cost. If you search up stuff on the internet your going to get a bunch of misinformation about modern agricultural.
The only real hope of getting away from manufactured fertilizer is with Genetically Modified Plants that could take nitrogen from the air. Example make wheat a legume.
That or world starvation if everything was organic.

[KGB]

.....

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by W921

There is a lot of politics in food production. Organic at the top levels is,well one time I bought carrots at the grocery store. As I was waiting in line I noticed they were organic and I walked back and put them on the shelf. I couldn't find normal carrots so I went without. This was because of the principal of it,not the cost. If you search up stuff on the internet your going to get a bunch of misinformation about modern agricultural.
The only real hope of getting away from manufactured fertilizer is with Genetically Modified Plants that could take nitrogen from the air. Example make wheat a legume.
That or world starvation if everything was organic.

Genetically modified foods that depend on manufactured fertilizer and pesticides brought us the Green revolution, we've outgrown that and are on the search for ever more efficient food production, it's unsustainable in the long run, as long as populations keep increasing.

Grizz

[Looper]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

Urea (46-0-0) probably one of the best and safest fertilizers, will not even burn your lawn. However you will need to mow your lawn every 3-4 days and will be greenest lawn on the block or farm.

I think you have it backwards. Urea is no where near the fertilizer for lawns that 34-0-0 was. Urea needs to be converted by an enzyme into nitrate before a plant can use it, which causes N losses. 34-0-0 is useable by plants immediately and does not volatilize.

In the 90's for a joke we would fertilize buddies lawn with 34-0-0 when he wasn't home. He would have to mow every other day.

Looper

[W921]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

Genetically modified foods that depend on manufactured fertilizer and pesticides brought us the Green revolution, we've outgrown that and are on the search for ever more efficient food production, it's unsustainable in the long run, as long as populations keep increasing.

Grizz

Remember back in the 70 s how the world was over populated and we were not going to be able to feed everyone. genetically modified foods is what saved the day.
I dont like the term organic because they are telling people dont buy the other product because its Frankenfood and will hurt you.
If a calf is sick I'm going to treat it. If it made financial sense for me (usually doesn't) to use granular fertilizer I would. I try to use methods so I dont have to break up land because it make financial sense for me to do things this way.
But I'm not a farmer growing cash crops like wheat either.

[MyAlberta]

Originally Posted by W921

Remember back in the 70 s how the world was over populated and we were not going to be able to feed everyone. genetically modified foods is what saved the day.
I dont like the term organic because they are telling people dont buy the other product because its Frankenfood and will hurt you.
If a calf is sick I'm going to treat it. If it made financial sense for me (usually doesn't) to use granular fertilizer I would. I try to use methods so I dont have to break up land because it make financial sense for me to do things this way.
But I'm not a farmer growing cash crops like wheat either.

Actually, it was the scaling up of fertilizer production.

[W921]

Originally Posted by MyAlberta

Actually, it was the scaling up of fertilizer production.

Yeah your right, fertilizer, direct seeding,herbicide, pesticide, G.M.O.s are all part of it but the organics hate all of them.
The fertilizer i believe takes a lot of petroleum to produce? That might be part of the politics. A lot of nations are looking for excuses to put up trade restrictions.

[ghostguy6]

Maybe this will help get things a little more back on topic

Explosives Expert & Chemist Gives Analysis of Beirut Explosion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPf3P-1PEBw

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by ghostguy6

Maybe this will help get things a little more back on topic

Explosives Expert & Chemist Gives Analysis of Beirut Explosion:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPf3P-1PEBw

What a truly silly idea. What fun is having a real expert explain it when there are so many self taught experts on AO that want to do it instead.How thread limiting, post count reducing of you.