Commercial Pilots

[Clusterite]

Hi guys, couple questions for the people making a living flying. Are the people flying the commercial passenger jets, West Jet, Air Canada, mostly have a military background? For the ones who don't, what kinda money are people paying to get the required flight experience to get hired by a big name company? Just a conversation I was having with a bud over a beer but my guess was around 100k for the pilots with no military background. Am I in the ball park?

[calgarygringo]

Not to start out. Go to Westjet If they have any postings it will be there. They make way less than you think. One big reason they went union and strike. I used to see some of their finance apps come thru and was amazed how little they make. Now a big brand pilot flying a 777 or the like makes good bucks for the major airlines but took him half his life to get there.

Originally Posted by Clusterite

Hi guys, couple questions for the people making a living flying. Are the people flying the commercial passenger jets, West Jet, Air Canada, mostly have a military background? For the ones who don't, what kinda money are people paying to get the required flight experience to get hired by a big name company? Just a conversation I was having with a bud over a beer but my guess was around 100k for the pilots with no military background. Am I in the ball park?

[prarie_boy1]

I have been flying since 18 years old commercially and with an airline for the previous 7 years. Hard to say what the cost would be now but I want to say it was close to 50,000 by the time the dust settled in education and training costs to obtain my commercial licence and multi engine instrument rating. I had no military background I obtained my experience flying in the north starting with small piston engine aircraft and eventually working my way into the turbine powered aircraft. I seem to recall needing between 4-5000 hours to be considered competitive at a regional airline at that time and air Canada and Westjet requiring more experience. Things have changed now however we are facing a looming pilot shortage and college programs are literally sending candidates straight to WestJet and Air Canada regional carriers. It’s a great time to be a pilot you can literally walk right into an airline job with very little time however I wouldn’t trade my experince flying up north for anything despite some of the hardships. It’s been along time since I have been in a flight school but I would hazard a guess training costs are at least 30% higher if not more than when I started.

[kevinhits]

Originally Posted by prarie_boy1

I have been flying since 18 years old commercially and with an airline for the previous 7 years. Hard to say what the cost would be now but I want to say it was close to 50,000 by the time the dust settled in education and training costs to obtain my commercial licence and multi engine instrument rating. I had no military background I obtained my experience flying in the north starting with small piston engine aircraft and eventually working my way into the turbine powered aircraft. I seem to recall needing between 4-5000 hours to be considered competitive at a regional airline at that time and air Canada and Westjet requiring more experience. Things have changed now however we are facing a looming pilot shortage and college programs are literally sending candidates straight to WestJet and Air Canada regional carriers. It’s a great time to be a pilot you can literally walk right into an airline job with very little time however I wouldn’t trade my experince flying up north for anything despite some of the hardships. It’s been along time since I have been in a flight school but I would hazard a guess training costs are at least 30% higher if not more than when I started.

My 14 year old Son is all in for being a pilot and looked into the cost recently and it will cost $80,000 or more....So, unless he changes his mind, we are in for the long haul

He has been using simulators and is really into taking everything in right now...He is a very smart kid and my Wife and I will let him pursue his dreams and not worrying about the cost. From what my son has told me, a 6 digit income is reasonable....

Any input from this thread will be shared with my son....Look forward to any feedback from past or present pilots that can share there experiences

Also, We were looking at putting him into Air Cadets here in Calgary. Do Cadets have a better chance getting into Mount Royal for Pilot training?
Is there any other good Universities or College to take the course in Western Canada or even Montana, USA?

I guess he needs a PPL to even apply to Mount Royal. Any input and help would be appreciated.

Thanks guys

[TimeOff]

Originally Posted by prarie_boy1

I have been flying since 18 years old commercially and with an airline for the previous 7 years. Hard to say what the cost would be now but I want to say it was close to 50,000 by the time the dust settled in education and training costs to obtain my commercial licence and multi engine instrument rating. I had no military background I obtained my experience flying in the north starting with small piston engine aircraft and eventually working my way into the turbine powered aircraft. I seem to recall needing between 4-5000 hours to be considered competitive at a regional airline at that time and air Canada and Westjet requiring more experience. Things have changed now however we are facing a looming pilot shortage and college programs are literally sending candidates straight to WestJet and Air Canada regional carriers. It’s a great time to be a pilot you can literally walk right into an airline job with very little time however I wouldn’t trade my experince flying up north for anything despite some of the hardships. It’s been along time since I have been in a flight school but I would hazard a guess training costs are at least 30% higher if not more than when I started.

This ^^^. once he gets his Commercial Licence, best bet is to head north. Small operators first, twin engine next, dual crew after that. Experience comes quickly or slowly depending on how remote he is willing to work.
With anything, hard work and skill will bring quick advance. Laziness and such will take lot longer, especially in Aviation. With Pilots, good hand-eye coordination is a good tell. Would he do things when he was younger that would wow you, ie, skateboard tricks, good with his hands? If not, best he take up a desk job.

P.S. Blowhards who brag and talk themselves up are usually terrible, in Maint and Flight Crew. It's the humble and confident who will excel in the industry!

[coreya3212]

It would be a few years before a commercial pilot gets into 100k plus range I am afraid. Yes, There seems to be a pilot shortage right now, yes 80 k for training is probably a good bet. Yes, get into cadets and into a glider sooner rather than later... I am a private pilot, not commercial, so I fly for fun. Would I fly as a profession, nope. Way better ways to make money, but I get it that some want to turn there passion into a career.

[CaberTosser]

Originally Posted by kevinhits

My 14 year old Son is all in for being a pilot and looked into the cost recently and it will cost $80,000 or more....So, unless he changes his mind, we are in for the long haul

He has been using simulators and is really into taking everything in right now...He is a very smart kid and my Wife and I will let him pursue his dreams and not worrying about the cost. From what my son has told me, a 6 digit income is reasonable....

Any input from this thread will be shared with my son....Look forward to any feedback from past or present pilots that can share there experiences

Also, We were looking at putting him into Air Cadets here in Calgary. Do Cadets have a better chance getting into Mount Royal for Pilot training?
Is there any other good Universities or College to take the course in Western Canada or even Montana, USA?

I guess he needs a PPL to even apply to Mount Royal. Any input and help would be appreciated.

Thanks guys

I was in the Air Cadets when I was 14 and had lots of fun. At the time I was in Mission, BC and we flew out of Abbotsford airport. I learned about engines and the principles of flight and we got up in Cessna Skyhawk II's and an aluminum glider. If a cadet sticks it out they can get a pilots license, or at least that was the case when I was in. As I understand it if they advance to a reasonable rank and transition to the Canadian Forces they can enter and skip straight to being a Corporal IIRC.

[kevinhits]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

I was in the Air Cadets when I was 14 and had lots of fun. At the time I was in Mission, BC and we flew out of Abbotsford airport. I learned about engines and the principles of flight and we got up in Cessna Skyhawk II's and an aluminum glider. If a cadet sticks it out they can get a pilots license, or at least that was the case when I was in. As I understand it if they advance to a reasonable rank and transition to the Canadian Forces they can enter and skip straight to being a Corporal IIRC.

Unfortunately my Son is dead against Air cadets because it seems military first and flying second....He sat in on a couple of meetings and is not for him and I do understand why he does not want to go that route....and he should not have too.

[CaberTosser]

Originally Posted by kevinhits

Unfortunately my Son is dead against Air cadets because it seems military first and flying second....He sat in on a couple of meetings and is not for him and I do understand why he does not want to go that route....and he should not have too.

Some parade days we'd do a lot of standing, after the fact one realizes that its a test of ones resolve, I can recall one fainter who couldn't manage to stand for that long. You sure learn how to put a good gloss on your boots though!

[lannie]

Being a commercial pilot is being a glorified bus driver at best.

[260 Rem]

My recommendation for those who can pass muster is to go military ... understand, they are very selective. One of my sons and his wife are both commercial pilots. Both spent time flying C 130’s for Canada. Son went on to 707’s (AWACS) for NATO and then to AC. Son flew Embriers and was Chief Standards Pilot. Then to A320’s. Daughter-in-law went to 737’s with a charter company, then to AC - - - and after a long leave of absence from AC, recently went back and is now doing check rides for the 787 (Dreamliner). Son is now Director of Flight Op’s for Rouge.
No doubt that only the best of the best make the cuts required by the military but if you’ve got the smarts and focus it is likely the best way to go ... and yes, many of those flying passengers are ex military. I remember an interesting observation my son once made about the military training...something to the effect “Anyone can learn to fly, but only those with enough confidence to make the right decisions under pressure and in split seconds will qualify...”

[sjr]

Sure the commercial pilot industry doesn't go the same route as the trucking industry

[kevinhits]

Thanks for all the replies so far....My son wants and enjoys the experience of flying planes, but I have no idea why Cadets or Military experience have anything to do with flying planes. Someone decides they want to be a pilot, has good grades, gets there PPL on there own, goes to aviation school, passes there curiculam, does the required flying time.....and does not have to salute there commanding officer every time he passes.....

I am all for commanding respect and my Son is very respectful to me and everyone he meets....but does not need a military background to do so....

[260 Rem]

For the youngsters thinking of going the military route, I think the path my son took would be worth a look. He started a B. Com degree at the U of A and in his third year, decided he wanted to be a military pilot so joined the local Reserves (skin mechanic) to get some extra cash for University. At that time he looked into the ROTP but was not eligible because he was already attending university. (So, check out that program before going to the U). As soon as he graduated with his B. Com, he applied to CAF. At that time, about half the number of applicants were accepted for basic training. A lot did not make it through basic.
Then, because he would get “Officer status” because of his University degree, he was required to attend a French Immersion program which required “functional fluency” in French in a very short period of time (I think it was 6 months). A lot did not make that cut. (So, pay attention in your French classes at school, and maybe even take a couple of classes ater HS grad). After the French requirement was met, he attended “Officer training” where it was necessary to survive another round of cuts. At that point, he went to flight school where they trained on Tudor jets ... where only about half of those in the program made the cut. Next came the little multi-engine (can’t remember what it was now) ... more cuts again, and when it was done, only about 20 got their wings (I recall someone saying at his wings ceremony that the original applicant pool was over a thousand.). The top three qualifiers in the wings grads got to choose their next training (the remaining 17 were placed) —- between helicopters, multi-engine, or jets. My son got to choose, and went with multi-engine....and before too long was flyng Hercs.

[260 Rem]

Originally Posted by kevinhits

Thanks for all the replies so far....My son wants and enjoys the experience of flying planes, but I have no idea why Cadets or Military experience have anything to do with flying planes. Someone decides they want to be a pilot, has good grades, gets there PPL on there own, goes to aviation school, passes there curiculam, does the required flying time.....and does not have to salute there commanding officer every time he passes.....

I am all for commanding respect and my Son is very respectful to me and everyone he meets....but does not need a military background to do so....

Interesting observation. I can tell you my son was/is one of the most independent thinking types. I was quite surprised when he joined the military and I once asked him about those seemingly strict “rules” ... to which his response was “ there are rules everywhere, once you understand those parameters, there is lots of discretion of how to act within those rules”.

[260 Rem]

Originally Posted by lannie

Being a commercial pilot is being a glorified bus driver at best.

In some respects but think of it this way. My son gets real grumpy about the idea of extra taxes over $200, 000.00. Last week my D-I-L was in Shanghai and Telaviv. Once home she will probably have two weeks off. Compare that with bus driver complaint about paying taxes on her $60,000.00 salary and was in Brooks and Medicine Hat last week

[lannie]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

In some respects but think of it this way. My son gets real grumpy about the idea of extra taxes over $200, 000.00. Last week my D-I-L was in Shanghai and Telaviv. Once home she will probably have two weeks off. Compare that with bus driver complaint about paying taxes on her $60,000.00 salary and was in Brooks and Medicine Hat last week

Your son is the exception. I bet there is not a pilot at West Jet making 200,000.
I also believe that the average bus driver makes more than the average commercial pilot. In the end your still living out of a suitcase and spending time in a lot of hotels etc. Have not met anyone yet who enjoyed that once they started families etc.

[260 Rem]

Lannie - no doubt he is an exception (says proud dad)...as is my daughter-in-law (proud FIL). Big bucks come with the left seat and seniority to bid flights. I don’t know a lot of their pilot friends but those I do seem to like their jobs. If I were to hazard a generalization, it seems like many of them ...married in their 30’s and are “older” parents. I do agree that it is not necessarily the glamorous job that some think, but then many jobs get old after a while. And, the military schedules are not conducive to establishing relationships.

[58thecat]

40k to 150k depending on experience, location as in where your based out of.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by kevinhits

Thanks for all the replies so far....My son wants and enjoys the experience of flying planes, but I have no idea why Cadets or Military experience have anything to do with flying planes. Someone decides they want to be a pilot, has good grades, gets there PPL on there own, goes to aviation school, passes there curiculam, does the required flying time.....and does not have to salute there commanding officer every time he passes.....

I am all for commanding respect and my Son is very respectful to me and everyone he meets....but does not need a military background to do so....

Jeepers I believe people where just offering your son another route to take....and believe it or not the experience of flying military aircraft after say ten years opens doors much quicker to say fly commercial and it's a heck of a lot easier on the pocket book as your earning a very well salary doing what you would love to do....always good options out there.

[Norwest Alta]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

Jeepers I believe people where just offering your son another route to take....and believe it or not the experience of flying military aircraft after say ten years opens doors much quicker to say fly commercial and it's a heck of a lot easier on the pocket book as your earning a very well salary doing what you would love to do....always good options out there.

This was my thoughts as well. Cadets and or reserves seem to be a good way to get flying hours for cheap.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Norwest Alta

This was my thoughts as well. Cadets and or reserves seem to be a good way to get flying hours for cheap.

Or pick away at private pilots license,get multi rating,commercial rating, IFR rating maybe even float rating...some go to other countries to fly, sketchy jobs out there but the experience and hours in the seat fast track you too.
Many routes to take and if flying is your passion then the cost is not a consideration because your going to do it regardless....some people put 80k down on a boat over ten years and only use it 2 months of the year

[Trap30]

I was at a function yesterday where a local charity gave some money to the local air cadet program. The CO said in his speech that 1 in 5 airline pilots in Canada started their piloting careers in Air Cadets. It is a great door opener for both career opportunities and learn some life skills too.

Originally Posted by kevinhits

My 14 year old Son is all in for being a pilot and looked into the cost recently and it will cost $80,000 or more....So, unless he changes his mind, we are in for the long haul

He has been using simulators and is really into taking everything in right now...He is a very smart kid and my Wife and I will let him pursue his dreams and not worrying about the cost. From what my son has told me, a 6 digit income is reasonable....

Any input from this thread will be shared with my son....Look forward to any feedback from past or present pilots that can share there experiences

Also, We were looking at putting him into Air Cadets here in Calgary. Do Cadets have a better chance getting into Mount Royal for Pilot training?
Is there any other good Universities or College to take the course in Western Canada or even Montana, USA?

I guess he needs a PPL to even apply to Mount Royal. Any input and help would be appreciated.

Thanks guys

[260 Rem]

If I were a kid focused on becoming an “airline” pilot I would be calling the HR Dept at the major haulers to determine exactly what they are looking for in terms of experience. If 3000 hrs on a 172 means nothing, it would be nice to know. If 500 hrs on a multi engine means something, that too would be nice to know. Of course, getting in the door is just the first step because the carrier will require the applicant to meet their training/standards requirements.

[propliner]

Most mainline airline pilots don't have a military background. In fact, most of the captains in the airlines right now worked for charter companies around the country, and most had some form of northern flying experience. For a passenger, this is a good thing.

Many of the pilots flying the regionals right now have been hired straight out of aviation schools or off the street, so to speak, since filling these seats is becoming difficult with an increasing shortage of pilots. There are many captains with less than 3000 hours' experience and First Officers with less than 500. Kinda scary If you ask me.

In corporate aviation, we don't even look at a guy with less than 5000.

[CaberTosser]

I know your son is against Cadets Kevin, so I’m just noting this for others who are reading the thread based on things my uncle who is a commercial pilot has said over the years. He’s my Mom’s younger brother and grew up in an ‘economically disadvantaged’ family and he paid for his pilot training. He worked places that sold hang gliders and ultralights, transitioned to becoming a bush pilot, he graduated to piloting small regional commuter planes (he was the last pilot to successfully land the Piper Navajo Chieftain that Grant Notley went down on when the subsequent pilot didn’t land it). He flew Dash 8’s for Canadian Regional and got his aircraft mechanics/engineers ticket too, so he could be wrenching the very plane he was flying. He was even a trainer pilot, instructing junior pilots on the flight simulator time in Seattle IIRC. These days he’s rather senior and flys AC’s bigger aircraft. He noted that he wished he was in the Cadets when he was young to get his initial private pilots license as it would have saved him a good bit of money back when he had very little of it. For others cost is less of an obstacle, but the option is worth noting for those whose wallets are a little on the light side. He did mention that the long haul routes to Asia and Australia were a bit of a pain, what with the schedules and perpetual messing with ones internal clock.

[ctd]

Originally Posted by kevinhits

Thanks for all the replies so far....My son wants and enjoys the experience of flying planes, but I have no idea why Cadets or Military experience have anything to do with flying planes. Someone decides they want to be a pilot, has good grades, gets there PPL on there own, goes to aviation school, passes there curiculam, does the required flying time.....and does not have to salute there commanding officer every time he passes.....

I am all for commanding respect and my Son is very respectful to me and everyone he meets....but does not need a military background to do so....

The number one reason people push the Military Route is simple.
1. the Military instills discipline. This is more then yes sir no sir as many think it is.
2. Provides invaluable training,
3. Provide the expierance they need.
4. The reason why airlines like Military Pilots so much is they come trained to a high set standard. Which is makes it easier for them to transition into their training program.. they come with expierance not found or allowed elsewhere. Type of flying, emergencies etc.

5 the cost. People get paid decently to be trained how to fly a plane in the Military. Then they have a provided job for a number of years to gain the expierance and further training to become sufficient. (Not have to pay $50-$80,000 for training with not much expierance).

6 I use to fix airplanes and would watch. Those poor Pilots be baggage boys/girls for couple years before being allowed to fly a plane. They made little money and worked their butts off for the maybe chance they could get hours in to fly. Watching Ice Pilots NWT although can be hard. But that is what a lot of companies do.
You want to be a pilot. Here's what you have to do. Work your way up from the bottom. They dont care how many hours you have. They care that you can prove that you have what it takes to not only fly a plane. But to do what needs to be done to get the job done.

This is their way of building character, dedication and loyalty to their brand.

You might find a company that will hire you right out of flight school. But those jobs are very far and few between.
The style of flying one wants to do can mean more then just flying.

As a newly trained Pilot you take what you can get. Hopefully get what you want the first time.

[Norwest Alta]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

Or pick away at private pilots license,get multi rating,commercial rating, IFR rating maybe even float rating...some go to other countries to fly, sketchy jobs out there but the experience and hours in the seat fast track you too.
Many routes to take and if flying is your passion then the cost is not a consideration because your going to do it regardless....some people put 80k down on a boat over ten years and only use it 2 months of the year

30 years ago I had a opportunity to get my pilots licence but I was to busy chasing girls, smoking dope and drinking beer. Over the last couple of years I've realized that I was stupid for not getting it when my uncle owned and operated a flying school.

[creeky]

Originally Posted by Clusterite

Hi guys, couple questions for the people making a living flying. Are the people flying the commercial passenger jets, West Jet, Air Canada, mostly have a military background? For the ones who don't, what kinda money are people paying to get the required flight experience to get hired by a big name company? Just a conversation I was having with a bud over a beer but my guess was around 100k for the pilots with no military background. Am I in the ball park?

I know 4 commercial pilots. Three fly for Air Canada and the other worked for West Jet-all four complain about the salaries and IIRC it's a fair bit less than 6 figures.


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[Digger1]

I got my PPL back in the 90’s, about $5000 IIRC. Then bought an airplane for $47,000 which I flew 400 hours, doing my commercial license and a bunch of instrument time, as well as flying it up north to do my float rating and multi engine rating. Sold the plane 4 years later for $43,000, making for a net savings of $14,000 on my flight training after expenses. And had a lot of fun doing it.