Efficient BG Cartridge to do it all.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Buckhead

Not really. Later on Karamojo Bell switched to the .318 Westley Richards (a .330 caliber bullet) and this is what he said;

"wrote that the .318 Westley Richards was a more reliable killer for certain shots than his favoured .275 Rigby, but the .275 Rigby was a "surgeons" rifle.[9] On one occasion Bell used a pair of .318 Westley Richards rifles to take nine elephants with nine shots, he later wrote "In my opinion, the 250gr .318, although far from perfect, approaches most nearly the big game hunter's ideal bullet".[3]

Over 1000 elephants with the 7x57 and 6x54...and 9 elephants with the 318...sd.306, .326, and then he stepped up to .353! That’s nearly unheard of sd, not readily available now. You can find some really heavy .30 cal and bigger if you look and I think I have seen some sd in the .37 range which is incredible....if bullet and cartridge tech keeps going down this path and they can make these needles longer and longer and still get them down the tubes ok then it just opens the door to higher efficiencies of the powder you burn but also terminal performance...

To see .35 sd in 30 cal needs 235gr, 7mm needs 200gr, .270 needs 190gr and 6.5 would need 172gr. Not sure what twist rates those would require but I’d expect someone will try and take on the Swede with a sub 30 cal 21st century rendition soon. If not planned and Hornady was listening...there’s an idea to watch.

Imagine 170-175gr 6.5 at 2500-2700 fps, bc would be ridiculous, so it would hold velocity forever and wind won’t budge it....penetration potentials would be limitless so you could see some really dynamic performance with moderate constructions that let half the bullet really open up, and recoil would fit a very wide range of peeps. Hmmm

Until then for this thread...to get most out of your grains of powder burned run highest bc/sd bullets you can with appropriate construction for game intended and anything above 2400 fps will be great. Get above .3 sd to really max your penetration potentials.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by chuck

I’ve killed three Bison. With “premium” thirty caliber and 7MM bullets. And they died. Pretty abruptly.

I shot mine with a 378 wby and Barnes tax’s
It didn’t die so fast lol
Well, it had enough life to make it into the bush instead of a easy spot to work on it

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Over 1000 elephants with the 7x57 and 6x54...and 9 elephants with the 318...sd.306, .326, and then he stepped up to .353! That’s nearly unheard of sd, not readily available now. You can find some really heavy .30 cal and bigger if you look and I think I have seen some sd in the .37 range which is incredible....if bullet and cartridge tech keeps going down this path and they can make these needles longer and longer and still get them down the tubes ok then it just opens the door to higher efficiencies of the powder you burn but also terminal performance...

To see .35 sd in 30 cal needs 235gr, 7mm needs 200gr, .270 needs 190gr and 6.5 would need 172gr. Not sure what twist rates those would require but I’d expect someone will try and take on the Swede with a sub 30 cal 21st century rendition soon. If not planned and Hornady was listening...there’s an idea to watch.

Imagine 170-175gr 6.5 at 2500-2700 fps, bc would be ridiculous, so it would hold velocity forever and wind won’t budge it....penetration potentials would be limitless so you could see some really dynamic performance with moderate constructions that let half the bullet really open up, and recoil would fit a very wide range of peeps. Hmmm

Until then for this thread...to get most out of your grains of powder burned run highest bc/sd bullets you can with appropriate construction for game intended and anything above 2400 fps will be great. Get above .3 sd to really max your penetration potentials.

Sd has far less influence on penetration compared to bullet construction

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Over 1000 elephants with the 7x57 and 6x54...and 9 elephants with the 318...sd.306, .326, and then he stepped up to .353! That’s nearly unheard of sd, not readily available now. You can find some really heavy .30 cal and bigger if you look and I think I have seen some sd in the .37 range which is incredible....if bullet and cartridge tech keeps going down this path and they can make these needles longer and longer and still get them down the tubes ok then it just opens the door to higher efficiencies of the powder you burn but also terminal performance...

To see .35 sd in 30 cal needs 235gr, 7mm needs 200gr, .270 needs 190gr and 6.5 would need 172gr. Not sure what twist rates those would require but I’d expect someone will try and take on the Swede with a sub 30 cal 21st century rendition soon. If not planned and Hornady was listening...there’s an idea to watch.

Imagine 170-175gr 6.5 at 2500-2700 fps, bc would be ridiculous, so it would hold velocity forever and wind won’t budge it....penetration potentials would be limitless so you could see some really dynamic performance with moderate constructions that let half the bullet really open up, and recoil would fit a very wide range of peeps. Hmmm

Until then for this thread...to get most out of your grains of powder burned run highest bc/sd bullets you can with appropriate construction for game intended and anything above 2400 fps will be great. Get above .3 sd to really max your penetration potentials.

SD is a good indicator of a bullets ability to penetrate- it is not a good indicator that it will penetrate. That job is left to a bullets SD and construction and momentum.
So lets say a bullet gets to where it is supposed to. Immediate loss off blood pressure to the brain and loss of blood are usually what does the killing. If you agree, lets look a cple of facts. I'm not sure how many gallons of blood a mature Moose contains but it is much more than a Deer. Assuming both are shot in exactly the same place with a bullet of identical construction and penetration capabilities. ... one a .243 cal and the other a.358 cal. The .243 cal will put an expanded .243 cal hole that may go right thru the Moose, the expanded .358 will . Assuming the Moose contains more than twice the amount of blood as does the Deer, I think it is obvious that it would take much larger holes to cause enough blood loss to quickly kill the Moose. The same larger holes will instantly kill the Deer. To me, that makes a good case for larger caliber bullets. SD doesn't kill. Big Holes do. JMO

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Sd has far less influence on penetration compared to bullet construction

they are the same thing

'bullet construction' is simply another way to say sdrr - sectional density reduction rate (or potential)

a near minimal deforming round nose military bullet shows max penetration potential as the sd barely changes, if at all

and thanks to Bell we know you can go through a foot of elephant skull into brain pan with sd .306 or better at 2300-2400 fps muzzle velocity so long as that sd remains largely unchanged through it's journey

our hunting bullets today are designed to change sd through their journey and of course that never goes up, it goes down rapidly upon impact, so the trick is matching initial sd with whatever that reduction rate may be to the game intended to ensure adequate penetration

despite this obvious thing...we don't measure this or yet, it's certainly not a widely accepted but go ahead and measure the frontal area and weight of any bullet you've recovered from a critter, get the starting sd from online search, then with new measures you'll see what the end sd was and if you can remember how many inches of critter that bullet went through you can then deduce (at least to the inch) how much sd was reduced per inch (sdrr - sectional density reduction rate, a term i coined here some time ago) and you could also do one better...you could get energy reduction rate (err) figured out also...how many ft/lbs per inch did you dump into that critter as well, you'd need to know your impact velocity of course but if you knew the distance and muzzle velocity then you can get that.....another future number i think we will see in the next chapter of ballistics, stinky coyote will leave a mark on this world yet

some credit i will happily share to the forum of course as the stimulation of these discussions has spurred these amazing discoveries in my mind (under my tinfoil hat) in future ballistics

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Sd has far less influence on penetration compared to bullet construction

I'm more worried about making a minimum 160 grain "premium" bullet go really fast than I am about sectional density

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

I'm more worried about making a minimum 160 grain "premium" bullet going really fast than I am about sectional density

Exactly
faster equals more expansion and if they bullet is made of quality construction
Your getting a lot of penetration

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

they are the same thing

'bullet construction' is simply another way to say sdrr - sectional density reduction rate (or potential)

a near minimal deforming round nose military bullet shows max penetration potential as the sd barely changes, if at all

and thanks to Bell we know you can go through a foot of elephant skull into brain pan with sd .306 or better at 2300-2400 fps muzzle velocity so long as that sd remains largely unchanged through it's journey

our hunting bullets today are designed to change sd through their journey and of course that never goes up, it goes down rapidly upon impact, so the trick is matching initial sd with whatever that reduction rate may be to the game intended to ensure adequate penetration

despite this obvious thing...we don't measure this or yet, it's certainly not a widely accepted but go ahead and measure the frontal area and weight of any bullet you've recovered from a critter, get the starting sd from online search, then with new measures you'll see what the end sd was and if you can remember how many inches of critter that bullet went through you can then deduce (at least to the inch) how much sd was reduced per inch (sdrr - sectional density reduction rate, a term i coined here some time ago) and you could also do one better...you could get energy reduction rate (err) figured out also...how many ft/lbs per inch did you dump into that critter as well, you'd need to know your impact velocity of course but if you knew the distance and muzzle velocity then you can get that.....another future number i think we will see in the next chapter of ballistics, stinky coyote will leave a mark on this world yet

some credit i will happily share to the forum of course as the stimulation of these discussions has spurred these amazing discoveries in my mind (under my tinfoil hat) in future ballistics

The only Mark you are going to leave on this world is one big headache

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Exactly
faster equals more expansion and if they bullet is made of quality construction
Your getting a lot of penetration

As Roy said, speed kills

[kujoseto]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

I shot mine with a 378 wby and Barnes tax’s
It didn’t die so fast lol
Well, it had enough life to make it into the bush instead of a easy spot to work on it

Well that’s because you were overgunned. Didn’t you know you were supposed to use a 6.5 Grendel?
Pot stirred

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

As Roy said, speed kills

Makes you wonder why anyone ever bought a magnum when there was such a wide range of slow moving, rapidly expanding bullets available

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

they are the same thing

'bullet construction' is simply another way to say sdrr - sectional density reduction rate (or potential)

a near minimal deforming round nose military bullet shows max penetration potential as the sd barely changes, if at all

and thanks to Bell we know you can go through a foot of elephant skull into brain pan with sd .306 or better at 2300-2400 fps muzzle velocity so long as that sd remains largely unchanged through it's journey

our hunting bullets today are designed to change sd through their journey and of course that never goes up, it goes down rapidly upon impact, so the trick is matching initial sd with whatever that reduction rate may be to the game intended to ensure adequate penetration

despite this obvious thing...we don't measure this or yet, it's certainly not a widely accepted but go ahead and measure the frontal area and weight of any bullet you've recovered from a critter, get the starting sd from online search, then with new measures you'll see what the end sd was and if you can remember how many inches of critter that bullet went through you can then deduce (at least to the inch) how much sd was reduced per inch (sdrr - sectional density reduction rate, a term i coined here some time ago) and you could also do one better...you could get energy reduction rate (err) figured out also...how many ft/lbs per inch did you dump into that critter as well, you'd need to know your impact velocity of course but if you knew the distance and muzzle velocity then you can get that.....another future number i think we will see in the next chapter of ballistics, stinky coyote will leave a mark on this world yet

some credit i will happily share to the forum of course as the stimulation of these discussions has spurred these amazing discoveries in my mind (under my tinfoil hat) in future ballistics

Next will be a "study" on Elephant anatomy. My understanding of Bell's shot placement is, that it was a very small area of about three inches in diameter ( similar to a human's temple ).. not a skull 12 inches thick covering the brain pan. The 6.5 is good, but not that good.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Makes you wonder why anyone ever bought a magnum when there was such a wide range of slow moving, rapidly expanding bullets available

lol. Suckers

Sometimes amazes me what people can talk themselves into

[Stinky Coyote]

lol also, it amazes me how we all say nearly the same thing just understand it differently

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Makes you wonder why anyone ever bought a magnum when there was such a wide range of slow moving, rapidly expanding bullets available

variety is the spice of life, i'm sure Roy did alright by coming up with a thing to market and sell

needed? no, we'd all be just fine with a 6.5x55 pushing 160's for anything but that's boring, people like to play and they like variety

i got hooked on the speed and it was fun to go up the ladder a bit, but have come back down and just as happy if not happier, so there's that

suppose if you'd like 2400 fps impact velocity at 600+ yards you're going to need some speed, for mere mortals however, we can still launch reasonable bullets at 2400-2700 fps and get all our hunting needs covered effectively also, sure is nice we have the choices though, i'm a big fan of choices and variety

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Homesteader

Oh, well that makes more sense. I change my answer to 308 win or 7-08

Dedicated grizz hunt?

I will sit back 1 click in the Argo and watch.....might find ya a few days later as we keep calling your cell and find your phone in bear scat

To the OP....after 7 pages can you give us your final decision....ya got some great inputs here

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

Dedicated grizz hunt?

I will sit back 1 click in the Argo and watch.....might find ya a few days later as we keep calling your cell and find your phone in bear scat

To the OP....after 7 pages can you give us your final decision....ya got some great inputs here

lol ... I really don't have the final decision, but if I had to choose just one, the 9.3x62 would be it.

[dave99]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

variety is the spice of life, i'm sure Roy did alright by coming up with a thing to market and sell

needed? no, we'd all be just fine with a 6.5x55 pushing 160's for anything but that's boring, people like to play and they like variety

i got hooked on the speed and it was fun to go up the ladder a bit, but have come back down and just as happy if not happier, so there's that

suppose if you'd like 2400 fps impact velocity at 600+ yards you're going to need some speed, for mere mortals however, we can still launch reasonable bullets at 2400-2700 fps and get all our hunting needs covered effectively also, sure is nice we have the choices though, i'm a big fan of choices and variety

I agree that variety is fun.

For me, at the ranges in which I hunt (sub 500yd) a magnum does not get me any practical advantage over a the 30.06 or 6.5cm that I use.

The advent of range finding optics has revolutionized the market, such that maximum point blank range concept (for me) has become obsolete.

I can see how prior to the use of range finders a high velocity chambering would have been advantageous in terms of MPBR.

I still have my grandpas Mark V .270, it just doesn’t get exercised much.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[obsessed1]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

Dedicated grizz hunt?

I will sit back 1 click in the Argo and watch.....might find ya a few days later as we keep calling your cell and find your phone in bear scat

To the OP....after 7 pages can you give us your final decision....ya got some great inputs here

200 gr partition at 2400+ fps and an accurate rifle. I would have no issue " hunting " grizz....unfortunately This is a moot discussion as it's illegal...

[Homesteader]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

Dedicated grizz hunt?

I will sit back 1 click in the Argo and watch.....might find ya a few days later as we keep calling your cell and find your phone in bear scat

To the OP....after 7 pages can you give us your final decision....ya got some great inputs here

With all the money I saved shooting an efficient cartridge I have a waterproof cellphone with a great battery, so yes that should work

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

Dedicated grizz hunt?

I will sit back 1 click in the Argo and watch.....might find ya a few days later as we keep calling your cell and find your phone in bear scat

To the OP....after 7 pages can you give us your final decision....ya got some great inputs here

If Grizzlies scare you, pack something else.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by chuck

If Grizzlies scare you, pack something else.

just following the OP's request is all.....nothing scares me but some things I just really really really respect...when they walk out of thick cover to claim their fishing hole well have at'er….I'll move downstream or upstream.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Salavee

lol ... I really don't have the final decision, but if I had to choose just one, the 9.3x62 would be it.

Otto would be proud of your choice...well done sir!

[Ice Fishing Maniac]

With all the hype out there now on this new caliber, why not try the Winchester/Browning new 6.8 WESTERN.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

The only Mark you are going to leave on this world is one big headache

lol, definitely for some

bring up your ballistics nerd game and the headaches will go away

sdrr and err...the next chapter in big game bullet ballistics development

watch, one day, someone here is gonna say...'stinky c' they stole your ideas! and provide a link to the article

[Stinky Coyote]

well, how bout a .243 vs 6.5 Grendel penetration test, you wanna see the conclusion just head to the 4:00 minute mark and watch from there

two cup and core, one driven 380 fps faster than the other and with another 10-13 grains of powder too, a 100 gr .243 .242 sd at 2960 fps vs 123 gr 6.5 grendel at 2580 fps with .252 sd

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSTjG2QWAXg

two ways to go to get the .243 to match the Grendel example here...1. slow it down as the construction for that speed just sheds too much sd too quickly...ie; cup and core will really shed sd above 2700 fps launches or, 2. make it tougher like a partition, so it could keep more sd as it goes, then it will get deeper

we compensate for too much velocity or weak sd with heavier or tougher bullets...start to see the relationships of efficiency on game...there's a magic window of velocity/contruction/sd for most of the game we chase

the grendel having higher sd and 380 fps less velocity allowed it to go deeper as it held together better keeping it's sd...more velocity would have shortened it's potential just like the .243's was...

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Ice Fishing Maniac

With all the hype out there now on this new caliber, why not try the Winchester/Browning new 6.8 WESTERN.

where is this hype? i've only seen a couple obscure mentions of it here so far, mind you my world is pretty small

this will be a one year flash in the pan...just my prediction, the wssm's will have a better standing in time

[Nyksta]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

where is this hype? i've only seen a couple obscure mentions of it here so far, mind you my world is pretty small

this will be a one year flash in the pan...just my prediction, the wssm's will have a better standing in time

I'm sure there will be someone on the forum who will buy it and then soon enough they will come on here spamming every thread telling us how much they love it.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

well, how bout a .243 vs 6.5 Grendel penetration test, you wanna see the conclusion just head to the 4:00 minute mark and watch from there

two cup and core, one driven 380 fps faster than the other and with another 10-13 grains of powder too, a 100 gr .243 .242 sd at 2960 fps vs 123 gr 6.5 grendel at 2580 fps with .252 sd

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSTjG2QWAXg

two ways to go to get the .243 to match the Grendel example here...1. slow it down as the construction for that speed just sheds too much sd too quickly...ie; cup and core will really shed sd above 2700 fps launches or, 2. make it tougher like a partition, so it could keep more sd as it goes, then it will get deeper

we compensate for too much velocity or weak sd with heavier or tougher bullets...start to see the relationships of efficiency on game...there's a magic window of velocity/contruction/sd for most of the game we chase

the grendel having higher sd and 380 fps less velocity allowed it to go deeper as it held together better keeping it's sd...more velocity would have shortened it's potential just like the .243's was...

You "new Idea" was actually invented over 100 years ago by a guy named Wm Brenneke, ( TUG bullets) N. America is so far behind we think, and act, like we are first.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Ice Fishing Maniac

With all the hype out there now on this new caliber, why not try the Winchester/Browning new 6.8 WESTERN.

Interesting cartridge for sure.