16 foot boat engine size

[SamSteele]

Forum issues caused double post.

[SamSteele]

Originally Posted by Dezso

5 dealership with different brand all comes with 60HP
Lund, Legend, Princecraft, Smoker Craft and Tacker very close price, this boat just looks better and was tired of 2 week of shopping with no purchase since old boat sold already.
Anything with 90HP was 5k+ more what was out of my budget.
Used boats sold quickly and many I looked was also with 60HP for only a few thousand less 4-6k depends on age and options.

Each of those brands have different boat weights, hull shapes, and capacities so the performance of the same motor on them would be different. My Ram 3500 has a 6 cylinder motor, as does my wife’s Honda Odyssey, but they are both very different in their performance.

I can’t speak to all the brands but I know that Smokercraft uses H32 aluminum. Lund and Crestliner use H34, and Princecraft uses H36. While these technical details don’t get talked about by many dealers, it makes a difference in the hulls rigidity and weight, which affects performance. H36 is the lightest and stiffest aluminum of those three which impacts performance.

The max HP rating on the Princecraft you were likely looking at (Amarok 166) is 75 hp, so the 60 is much closer to max hp than it is on a boat with a 90 max. A decked out Amarok with the 60 is also well within your budget, meaning you likely could have moved to the 75 and still been in your price range. Water under the bridge now though.

I suspect you will need to work with your dealer now to see what options there are for you. I would hope that they help with repropping and adjusting the motor height at a minimum. Hopefully this gets you closer to where you expected to be.

[Big Grey Wolf]

Leave some of your Chubby friends on shore, problem solved.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Dezso

The manager wasn’t available yesterday!

Service tech confirmed the engine working fine, it produces 55.7HP 800psi at 5200 RPM
Waiting for a 4 blade 11 pitch prop.

Spoke with Smoker Craft, they confirmed “this dealer just like many other” the boat shipped with engine mounted on it. When I asked why 60HP if that barely makes it, the dealership order it with that configuration!!

I didn’t put in much effort yesterday, no point arguing with every employee, I want to speak with the manager only. Service tech also hinted 60HP is the minimum for this boat, when I asked about 70HP he said it’s a same engine, 50-60-70 all 1000CC with a different gear ratio and different software!
Spoke with Consumer Protection Canada “its a joke” made no complaints or named each party involved.
My plan for today is see if they would go for a engine swap 60YAmaha same price 75Mercury, 90Mercury $1400 more but this prices just what I found in google in various companies website.

hope the engine upgrade works out for you....a buddy of mine has the lund with a 60 merc on the back it scoots along good with the two of us in it up on plain etc but would question 4 adults....gear etc....good luck....and thanks for sharring cuz I know there are others out there just about to make the same mistake too...spend a little more for engine performance.

[Dezso]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

Leave some of your Chubby friends on shore, problem solved.

working on that.

[EZM]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

hope the engine upgrade works out for you....a buddy of mine has the lund with a 60 merc on the back it scoots along good with the two of us in it up on plain etc but would question 4 adults....gear etc....good luck....and thanks for sharring cuz I know there are others out there just about to make the same mistake too...spend a little more for engine performance.

That boat has an outstanding hull design ….. that makes a big difference …. so it's not only about weight and hp. (assuming the cav plate and prop are also matched and set up properly).

As I mentioned earlier and Sam Steele also added to, hull design and construction is going to play a BIG factor in how hydrodynamically efficient the boat is (how easily and how little power it takes for it to jump up on plane).

If I'm not mistaken the Prince Craft (also a top premium brand) also uses opposed lifting strakes, compound geometry, similar to the IPS2 hull that Lund uses (and Crest liners for that matter as well). It can take 20% less HP to plane a boat with that technology. It's a tiny thing hard to see (only an inch here or an inch there, and an angled instead of straight strake angle - but the research is there.

It's expensive. It requires more sheets to be cut or lapped, more welds or rivets, more structure under the hull with even more welding …… so that's part of what you pay for when you spend the extra money.

This isn't marketing, it's real.

Having said that, you can underpower the best designed hull and overload the boat and you go nowhere.

You can also drop the motor to the top of the yoke on the transom and bury the cav plate 3" under the bottom of the hull and plow water like a parachute.

That boat, without prejudice, uses a conventional hull and needs more HP compared to a premium brand that uses better geometry and hydrodynamics.

[Dezso]

Originally Posted by SamSteele

Each of those brands have different boat weights, hull shapes, and capacities so the performance of the same motor on them would be different. My Ram 3500 has a 6 cylinder motor, as does my wife’s Honda Odyssey, but they are both very different in their performance.

I can’t speak to all the brands but I know that Smokercraft uses H32 aluminum. Lund and Crestliner use H34, and Princecraft uses H36. While these technical details don’t get talked about by many dealers, it makes a difference in the hulls rigidity and weight, which affects performance. H36 is the lightest and stiffest aluminum of those three which impacts performance.

The max HP rating on the Princecraft you were likely looking at (Amarok 166) is 75 hp, so the 60 is much closer to max hp than it is on a boat with a 90 max. A decked out Amarok with the 60 is also well within your budget, meaning you likely could have moved to the 75 and still been in your price range. Water under the bridge now though.

I suspect you will need to work with your dealer now to see what options there are for you. I would hope that they help with repropping and adjusting the motor height at a minimum. Hopefully this gets you closer to where you expected to be.

I would of buy the Holliday if you had one but didn’t like the Amarok 166.
I would of buy the Lund 1650 from you if I could have the 70LB trolling motor instead of the expensive bench seat.
I do like the Pro Angler very much, well organized and looks great, sad that I was allowed to have unrealistic expectations, signed many disclosures and meaningless paper but somehow 100% commissioned sales rep was quite like a toddler with soiled diapers after I decided to buy it.
Don’t buy a boat every year, it’s a experience what I’m learning from. Being sad and sorry not an option. Hope others learn from it as well. Once the dust settles I’ll write an extensive review on this dealership and the on Smoker Craft, will share it on many forum as possible so others don’t have to be victimized.

I’m not planning to go fishing with 4 people in fact most I go out alone or with 1 friend but hate the taught I can’t have the family in it and go out for a sunset boating is bothering me.

[Walleyedude]

I spent about a 1/2 hr Googling various hull designs - Smokercraft, Lund, Crestliner, Alumacraft...

If you look at the hull being used by every one one of those manufacturers, Smokercraft included, they're VERY similar. They all use some version of a reverse chine and lifting strakes, and all in a nearly identical design with a relatively shallow deadrise angle. It's obviously not possible to truly see the difference in a few pictures and videos online, and obviously there's a lot that goes into hull design. The biggest differences are in the use of a running pad vs a full length keel, there's definite pluses/minuses to that choice, and to some extent, the width of the hull at the running surface, which also has definite pluses and minuses.

My point being, at first look, I don't think it's simply the superior hull design of one brand vs the other that's the only cause the OPs issues. Something seems off. The devil is in the details though, and it would be really interesting to know what those details are.

[Dezso]

Just spoke with a x coworker who has 2016 version of this boat with 50HP Honda, a lot changed on the design but but very similar with specs. 900LB dry weight and max 60HP
He have hydrofoil plate and works fine for him.
I’m kinda want to take it out again with the 4 blade prop.

[brendan's dad]

Originally Posted by Dezso

I would of buy the Holliday if you had one but didn’t like the Amarok 166.
I would of buy the Lund 1650 from you if I could have the 70LB trolling motor instead of the expensive bench seat.
I do like the Pro Angler very much, well organized and looks great, sad that I was allowed to have unrealistic expectations, signed many disclosures and meaningless paper but somehow 100% commissioned sales rep was quite like a toddler with soiled diapers after I decided to buy it.
Don’t buy a boat every year, it’s a experience what I’m learning from. Being sad and sorry not an option. Hope others learn from it as well. Once the dust settles I’ll write an extensive review on this dealership and the on Smoker Craft, will share it on many forum as possible so others don’t have to be victimized.

I’m not planning to go fishing with 4 people in fact most I go out alone or with 1 friend but hate the taught I can’t have the family in it and go out for a sunset boating is bothering me.

I would be putting that letter together right now and forwarding it directly to Smoker Craft https://www.smokercraft.com/

You might also want to visit their FB page, tell your story and end with the statement... "Just wondering what my options are?"

https://www.facebook.com/smokercraftboats/

That dealer may get a very quick call from Smoker Craft telling them to handle the situation.

Really nothing to lose at this point.

[Dezso]

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

I would be putting that letter together right now and forwarding it directly to Smoker Craft https://www.smokercraft.com/

You might also want to visit their FB page, tell your story and end with the statement... "Just wondering what my options are?"

https://www.facebook.com/smokercraftboats/

That dealer may get a very quick call from Smoker Craft telling them to handle the situation.

Really nothing to lose at this point.

I like that.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by EZM

That boat has an outstanding hull design ….. that makes a big difference …. so it's not only about weight and hp. (assuming the cav plate and prop are also matched and set up properly).

As I mentioned earlier and Sam Steele also added to, hull design and construction is going to play a BIG factor in how hydrodynamically efficient the boat is (how easily and how little power it takes for it to jump up on plane).

If I'm not mistaken the Prince Craft (also a top premium brand) also uses opposed lifting strakes, compound geometry, similar to the IPS2 hull that Lund uses (and Crest liners for that matter as well). It can take 20% less HP to plane a boat with that technology. It's a tiny thing hard to see (only an inch here or an inch there, and an angled instead of straight strake angle - but the research is there.

It's expensive. It requires more sheets to be cut or lapped, more welds or rivets, more structure under the hull with even more welding …… so that's part of what you pay for when you spend the extra money.

This isn't marketing, it's real.

Having said that, you can underpower the best designed hull and overload the boat and you go nowhere.

You can also drop the motor to the top of the yoke on the transom and bury the cav plate 3" under the bottom of the hull and plow water like a parachute.

That boat, without prejudice, uses a conventional hull and needs more HP compared to a premium brand that uses better geometry and hydrodynamics.

good to know...maybe that is why my 14' crestliner with a 15hp honda short shaft motor just scoots along at 23 mph with two people and loaded...I have decking for a floor which added a lot of weight too...no issues getting it up to plain....and like you mentioned all that technology is probably why my buddy's 16 foot lund with a 60 merc has no problems....pay a little more but a lot less hassle in the end.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

I would be putting that letter together right now and forwarding it directly to Smoker Craft https://www.smokercraft.com/

You might also want to visit their FB page, tell your story and end with the statement... "Just wondering what my options are?"

https://www.facebook.com/smokercraftboats/

That dealer may get a very quick call from Smoker Craft telling them to handle the situation.

Really nothing to lose at this point.

good point...we did that with KIA a few years back....dealership gave us a call the next day...it works.

[ctd]

It's simple. The Manager/salesmen and tech need to go with you to thelake. Put the boat in the water with the current prop. See what it does.
Then if it performs poorly change out the prop and test again.

If they sold a underpowered boat its up to them to make it right. If there is something else going on then they can figure it out.
To me it looked like the trim wasn't right and the motor was plowing.
It might be a simple fix of adjusting the motor trim.

The days of service has gone out the door.

For those of you saying suck it up you bought the wrong boat.
If you spend $30,000 on a boat that says 4 person and it does 10mph. With a 60 horse and 4 people id be disappointed not to mention unsafe. That boat couldn't get out of its own way in a swell that would swamp it.

[Dezso]

Originally Posted by brendan's dad

I would be putting that letter together right now and forwarding it directly to Smoker Craft https://www.smokercraft.com/

You might also want to visit their FB page, tell your story and end with the statement... "Just wondering what my options are?"

https://www.facebook.com/smokercraftboats/

That dealer may get a very quick call from Smoker Craft telling them to handle the situation.

Really nothing to lose at this point.

I like that.

[EZM]

Originally Posted by Walleyedude

I spent about a 1/2 hr Googling various hull designs - Smokercraft, Lund, Crestliner, Alumacraft...

If you look at the hull being used by every one one of those manufacturers, Smokercraft included, they're VERY similar. They all use some version of a reverse chine and lifting strakes, and all in a nearly identical design with a relatively shallow deadrise angle. It's obviously not possible to truly see the difference in a few pictures and videos online, and obviously there's a lot that goes into hull design. The biggest differences are in the use of a running pad vs a full length keel, there's definite pluses/minuses to that choice, and to some extent, the width of the hull at the running surface, which also has definite pluses and minuses.

My point being, at first look, I don't think it's simply the superior hull design of one brand vs the other that's the only cause the OPs issues. Something seems off. The devil is in the details though, and it would be really interesting to know what those details are.

No, and Agreed, I think a boat that size is likely under powered with 60 hp and that load. If it came from the dealer I suspect it has, they know absolutely nothing about setting up a boat. The height at which the cavitation plate sits in relation to the bottom of the hull is critical.

The difference (or point I was trying to make) is/was - you can get away with a little more inefficiency in set up and power/weight ratio if the hull design provides superior lift.

I've fixed my fair share of boats over the years, bought a few "that wouldn't plane", spent an hour or two (and either no money or just a prop) and sold them at a significant profit after the "witchcraft and magic" to fix them was complete.

[OL_JR]

Originally Posted by Dezso

I’ll take a picture of the plate/sticker but I don’t have the boat.

Thanks, real curious to see what it says.

Originally Posted by SamSteele

I can’t speak to all the brands but I know that Smokercraft uses H32 aluminum. Lund and Crestliner use H34, and Princecraft uses H36. While these technical details don’t get talked about by many dealers, it makes a difference in the hulls rigidity and weight, which affects performance. H36 is the lightest and stiffest aluminum of those three which impacts performance.

.

Was curious about this but all I can seem to find is where it states on Smokercrafts website that they use 5032 H34 aluminum?.

I'm fairly certain that it should read 5052- H34, not even sure if there is a 5032 aluminum but could be wrong.

For certain Smokercraft needs to fire their website developer or get some more eyes on it. Seems to be lots of little mistakes especially spelling.

[EZM]

Originally Posted by OL_JR

Thanks, real curious to see what it says.



Was curious about this but all I can seem to find is where it states on Smokercrafts website that they use 5032 H34 aluminum?.

I'm fairly certain that it should read 5052- H34, not even sure if there is a 5032 aluminum but could be wrong.

For certain Smokercraft needs to fire their website developer or get some more eyes on it. Seems to be lots of little mistakes especially spelling.

Pure speculation here (but have seen something very similar to this a few times ) ..... I bet dollars to doughnut (having some experience in manufacturing and fabrication) that 5032 is basically a 5052 Chinese knock off that does not meet the thermal conductivity properties and/or structural (strength) spec according to the 5052 grade standard.

The people's republic is well know for dumping inferior products (maybe more impurities or zinc or something), re-classifying the grades to avoid countervailing duties for classified materials entering the US.

It doesn't mean it's good or bad, as many of you know, "stronger" does not always mean better as you can be trading off flexibility in exchange for another alloy being more brittle (deflection/elongation prior to failure or fracture).

[Walleyedude]

Originally Posted by EZM

No, and Agreed, I think a boat that size is likely under powered with 60 hp and that load. If it came from the dealer I suspect it has, they know absolutely nothing about setting up a boat. The height at which the cavitation plate sits in relation to the bottom of the hull is critical.

I've fixed my fair share of boats over the years, bought a few "that wouldn't plane", spent an hour or two (and either no money or just a prop) and sold them at a significant profit after the "witchcraft and magic" to fix them was complete.

It's underpowered, I don't think there's any arguing that, but there's no way the OP's boat is the only one out there of that size and style with a 60HP on it, Smokercraft or any other brand, and there's a pretty good chance all those people are fishing from boats that get up on plane work "normally".

I think a little "witchcraft and magic" like you say is likely all that's required. Proper engine height setup, maybe a prop change and/or a hydrofoil, and moving a little weight around will likely solve the problem. It'll never be a hot rod, but there's no way it shouldn't be a serviceable fishing boat capable getting up on plane and taking 4 people fishing.

The last time I saw a performance issue this bad, the dealer had mounted an outboard with a 20" shaft on a 25" transom, so I've learned that anything is possible lol.

[SamSteele]

Originally Posted by OL_JR

Thanks, real curious to see what it says.



Was curious about this but all I can seem to find is where it states on Smokercrafts website that they use 5032 H34 aluminum?.

I'm fairly certain that it should read 5052- H34, not even sure if there is a 5032 aluminum but could be wrong.

For certain Smokercraft needs to fire their website developer or get some more eyes on it. Seems to be lots of little mistakes especially spelling.

Looks like they switched to H34 since I owned one. My bad on that.

I also agree with Walleyedude that it should still get up on plane with the right prop and possibly a motor height adjustment.

[tool]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

Haha.

You sold tens of millions of dollars worth of boats in Alberta?

And I agree, but again the purchase has to match the requirements.

The OP asked what legal ramifications he has.

He bought poorly. We would sure hope the sales manager would help, but doubtful.

He bought an underpowered boat hoping to save money.

We all like to do that to a degree. I would love to only run 200hp on my boat, sometimes at 300hp I wish I had 400 but I thought what I bought. It is that way until I upgrade.

Maybe the dealership will take it back, give him all his money back and sell it as a 1 hour demo.

If you’d actually read my posts you’d see that I said I sold tens of millions of dollars of EQUIPMENT in the EQUIPMENT business.

Yes the dealer should take it back if it does not perform to the satisfaction of the customer after 1 hour use. That’s absurd.

I’ve got a 14’ tinner with a 7.5 hp Evinrude that will perform about that well with 4 adults aboard. A $30k 60 hp unit should do a lot better than that. At our family cottage we have a decades old Crestliner with a 50 hp Yamaha that would be on step in seconds with 4 adults, no thought to it at all.

That said, regardless of what machine you are speccing more power never hurts. I’ve never heard anyone say they wished they had bought less horsepower. My 17’ Glastron has the max specified for that hull, 150 HP Johnson Fast Strike. It doesn’t come up on plain it leaps out of the water and flat out runs!


In any case your dealer should be doing everything possible to make sure your purchase is to your satisfaction. Don’t back down.

[brendan's dad]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

good to know...maybe that is why my 14' crestliner with a 15hp honda short shaft motor just scoots along at 23 mph with two people and loaded...I have decking for a floor which added a lot of weight too...no issues getting it up to plain....and like you mentioned all that technology is probably why my buddy's 16 foot lund with a 60 merc has no problems....pay a little more but a lot less hassle in the end.

My, 14' Prince Craft with a 15 hp merc performs flawlessly with 500 lbs of people.

My thought are is that the boat definitely has the foot print or size to hold 4 passenger, so I don't think that the OP is having ridiculous expectation. If he had bought used, then I would say he should have done more research. But going to a dealer I would expect more.

When I moved to my acreage I had MSN internet out of St. Paul come to house to see if we could get a signal. It was late October and the leaves were already off the trees. I was on the roof with him and he said he was getting a fairly strong signal, but he refused to hook up my service. He said come spring the leaves will come back and you will not be a happy customer. I still have great respect for that person and company and wish I could use them as my internet provider.

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by ctd

It's simple. The Manager/salesmen and tech need to go with you to thelake. Put the boat in the water with the current prop. See what it does.
Then if it performs poorly change out the prop and test again.

If they sold a underpowered boat its up to them to make it right. If there is something else going on then they can figure it out.
To me it looked like the trim wasn't right and the motor was plowing.
It might be a simple fix of adjusting the motor trim.

The days of service has gone out the door.

For those of you saying suck it up you bought the wrong boat.
If you spend $30,000 on a boat that says 4 person and it does 10mph. With a 60 horse and 4 people id be disappointed not to mention unsafe. That boat couldn't get out of its own way in a swell that would swamp it.

I sure hope you are right, and the 3 guys willingly jump in the truck to see how bad it really is, but real world they will very likely say for $XXXX.XX we will put a bigger motor on.

If nothing else it is nice to see some help from the forum.

I just can not for the life or me wrap my head around blame going to the dealer on this one and even less the dealer stepping up, UNLESS he is the GOAT UNICORN dealer we have all dreamt of finding.

[Dezso]

Originally Posted by Walleyedude

It's underpowered, I don't think there's any arguing that, but there's no way the OP's boat is the only one out there of that size and style with a 60HP on it, Smokercraft or any other brand, and there's a pretty good chance all those people are fishing from boats that get up on plane work "normally".

I think a little "witchcraft and magic" like you say is likely all that's required. Proper engine height setup, maybe a prop change and/or a hydrofoil, and moving a little weight around will likely solve the problem. It'll never be a hot rod, but there's no way it shouldn't be a serviceable fishing boat capable getting up on plane and taking 4 people fishing.

The last time I saw a performance issue this bad, the dealer had mounted an outboard with a 20" shaft on a 25" transom, so I've learned that anything is possible lol.

Thanks, finally someone see my point of view.

[Dezso]

https://imgur.com/a/yQr86uV

Originally Posted by OL_JR

Thanks, real curious to see what it says.



Was curious about this but all I can seem to find is where it states on Smokercrafts website that they use 5032 H34 aluminum?.

I'm fairly certain that it should read 5052- H34, not even sure if there is a 5032 aluminum but could be wrong.

For certain Smokercraft needs to fire their website developer or get some more eyes on it. Seems to be lots of little mistakes especially spelling.

Here is it.

[Nova]

Originally Posted by Walleyedude

It's underpowered, I don't think there's any arguing that, but there's no way the OP's boat is the only one out there of that size and style with a 60HP on it, Smokercraft or any other brand, and there's a pretty good chance all those people are fishing from boats that get up on plane work "normally"

You're certainly right about that. In fact I'd say if you were to watch Kijiji for a year specifically for this model of boat, I'd guess over 50% of them will have a 50 or 60hp on them and less than 15% would be maxed out.

I've watched the boat market pretty consistently over the last 8 years or so, and at the time I was in the market for a new boat I gave up on looking at Smokercraft because finding an in stock package with max hp was almost non existent. I didn't like the fact that they are such wide boats and yet routinely underpowered. I don't know why, but from my observation Legend and Smokercraft seem to be the worst for underpowering.

A few years back while just loading my boat up at Athapapuskow a fella pulled up to the dock with a brand new Smokercraft. I could swear it was a 182, but may have been a 172. Regardless, it made my 1650 Fish Hawk look tiny. He got asking about how my boat performs with the 90hp because his was just plowing water with the 60hp hanging on the back. I was blown away that anyone would sell that boat. Pretty sure it was rated for a max of 150hp. We gave him a few suggestions but told him that no matter what he did he never be truly happy with that boat for as long as he has the 60hp on it.

[DiabeticKripple]

i dont think its so much the engine power, as much as the setup.

yes the 90hp will help big time, but you shouldnt have any problems getting on plane with the 60hp.

i dont know much about boats, but i would bet there is something wrong with the way the engine is setup on the boat, or the prop is just the wrong one for that boat.

[Dezso]

Is this normal ?
Picked up the boat and ready for 8am boating/fishing.
Just noticed the new prop have a good 1/8” free play back and forward.
https://youtu.be/FgQrM4lSZOU

[Dezso]

False alarm, it’s normal on the Spitfire props.
Found a lot of people having the same slack.


“I noticed mine was doing the exact same thing, did plenty of research and found out it is designed to do exactly that. The play and noise are perfectly normal and not a design flaw or an incorrect install.”

[OL_JR]

Originally Posted by Dezso

https://imgur.com/a/yQr86uV

Here is it.

Thanks, yeah that makes more sense. 700 seemed really low and it's a common number used for occupant load for 5 person boats. You aren't overloading that boat.

Hope that prop helps you out let us know how it goes.

Originally Posted by EZM

Pure speculation here (but have seen something very similar to this a few times ) ..... I bet dollars to doughnut (having some experience in manufacturing and fabrication) that 5032 is basically a 5052 Chinese knock off that does not meet the thermal conductivity properties and/or structural (strength) spec according to the 5052 grade standard.

The people's republic is well know for dumping inferior products (maybe more impurities or zinc or something), re-classifying the grades to avoid countervailing duties for classified materials entering the US.

It doesn't mean it's good or bad, as many of you know, "stronger" does not always mean better as you can be trading off flexibility in exchange for another alloy being more brittle (deflection/elongation prior to failure or fracture).

Could be, I'm interested to know so going to enquire. Judging by some of the mistakes on their website my guess is typo.