Lapping a Scope? Why? - Page 2

Scottmisfits · #31 02-01-2019, 09:39 PM

My understanding from what is being said, I will try to deliver what I think I understand.

Centerpoint alignment aren’t necessarily accurate. I will use an example of touching your middle fingers together. Those fingertips will touch no matter the angle of your fingers. Am I understanding the basis of what you’re saying?
So taking those bars and putting them square side in, if they meet square, your rings are square?

How about taking an 8” piece of bar and snug your rings to your base while snuggled with that inside? Would that help any?

colroggal · #32 02-01-2019, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scottmisfits

My understanding from what is being said, I will try to deliver what I think I understand.

Centerpoint alignment aren’t necessarily accurate. I will use an example of touching your middle fingers together. Those fingertips will touch no matter the angle of your fingers. Am I understanding the basis of what you’re saying?
So taking those bars and putting them square side in, if they meet square, your rings are square?

How about taking an 8” piece of bar and snug your rings to your base while snuggled with that inside? Would that help any?

A proper lapping kit will have a bar to snug in both rings. Low points will be ignored and high points will be worn down to true.

Colin

Scottmisfits · #33 02-01-2019, 10:32 PM

Yes, I know what lapping is and does. My question is on the center point bars, the two individual bars sharpened to a point on one end. The other part was about one bar to hit both rings when tightening to try and help with alignment. The rings would need to be aligned properly for the lapping to be quick, efficient, and as nondestructive as possible, no matter how minimal lapping may be needed.

Is this thinking not correct?

colroggal · #34 02-01-2019, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scottmisfits

Yes, I know what lapping is and does. My question is on the center point bars, the two individual bars sharpened to a point on one end. The other part was about one bar to hit both rings when tightening to try and help with alignment. The rings would need to be aligned properly for the lapping to be quick, efficient, and as nondestructive as possible, no matter how minimal lapping may be needed.

Is this thinking not correct?

The rings will tighten how they will. Lapping relieves all but the normal vertical stress. Attempting to force the rings to tension down any other way is not permanent. Lapping relieves those stresses. If the rings were aligned properly then lapping wouldn't be necessary.

Colin

Bush Critter · #35 02-01-2019, 10:58 PM

Lap it all ways ...why chance it... the downside is once the rings are laped they are pretty much only good for that one rifle ...

Scottmisfits · #36 02-01-2019, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colroggal

The rings will tighten how they will. Lapping relieves all but the normal vertical stress. Attempting to force the rings to tension down any other way is not permanent. Lapping relieves those stresses. If the rings were aligned properly then lapping wouldn't be necessary.

Colin

Thank you.

I can see this on most rings. I think something like the Leupold ring/base combo will be a little different for the alignment part but I see what you’re saying for most.

Off in the Bushes · #37 02-01-2019, 11:00 PM

There is just so many different trains of though on this, some say that lapping is not required, (also is a potential location for corrosion due to exposed metal) others say why not, it eliminates potential issues.
But if I have gleaned the info correctly from all of you, the consensus is proper alignment of the rings on the either a base or the firearm is a must.
When getting a scope mounted from a retailer do they use a ring alignment tool or just simply put the screw into the holes and mount?

260 Rem · #38 02-01-2019, 11:18 PM

I think a decent quality scope has enough built in tolerance to perform properly under a little stress. I would be surprised if 1 out of a hundred shooters have lapped scopes on their rigs? Perhaps the correct answer is similar to that given for break-in proceedures...unless your equipment and skill level are such that you can notice a minor issue ... drop them in the rings, snug ‘em up and shoot

AndrewM · #39 02-02-2019, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scottmisfits

My understanding from what is being said, I will try to deliver what I think I understand.

Centerpoint alignment aren’t necessarily accurate. I will use an example of touching your middle fingers together. Those fingertips will touch no matter the angle of your fingers. Am I understanding the basis of what you’re saying?
So taking those bars and putting them square side in, if they meet square, your rings are square?

How about taking an 8” piece of bar and snug your rings to your base while snuggled with that inside? Would that help any?

Just flip them backwards and line up the flats as well to make sure rings line up.

Pathfinder76 · #40 02-02-2019, 07:19 AM

Exaggerated to illustrate the point.

Bushrat · #41 02-02-2019, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck

Exaggerated to illustrate the point.

Yep, better off to use a one piece lapping bar to align rings than using those two piece pointy things. Seen people use them and get the rings cockeyed like that then put a lapping bar in and ruin the rings.

Scottmisfits · #42 02-02-2019, 08:41 AM

Thank you Chuck. That’s what I was trying to describe.

Kurt505 · #43 02-02-2019, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck

Exaggerated to illustrate the point.

Slide one backwards an inch and one forwards an inch inside the rings and see where they meet. If they are straight in line it won’t matter how far forward or backward you have the two points meet, but if they are not in line the results will change as you move the meeting point.

Salavee · #44 02-02-2019, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck

Exaggerated to illustrate the point.

.. can't be fixed !

marky_mark · #45 02-02-2019, 12:53 PM

Just buy near mounts and rings.
Great guy
From Alberta
Top notch quality

YYC338 · #46 02-02-2019, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Just buy near mounts and rings.
Great guy
From Alberta
Top notch quality

And if the rifle is drilled and tapped poorly with misalignment, how will that solve the problem?

Chargerguy · #47 02-02-2019, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salavee

https://www.sinclairintl.com/userdoc..._Tool_Inst.pdf

Nice design. A guy could also verify the alignment by using only one rod and pushing it through one sleeve and into the other if perfectly aligned with that setup. In theory anyway.

Salavee · #48 02-02-2019, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chargerguy

Nice design. A guy could also verify the alignment by using only one rod and pushing it through one sleeve and into the other if perfectly aligned with that setup. In theory anyway.

That's quite true. This one does that, as well as the two points.. The "point" is, some guys on here said this (sinclair) alignment tool doesn't work. It does ! ..and it works well. Probably the best one on the market. It also comes with a good set of instructions for those who claim otherwise.. I would still recommend the Sinclair for those who are looking for a simple, effective 'scope alignment tool.

Pathfinder76 · #49 02-02-2019, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Salavee

.. can't be fixed !

I’m not saying that Salavee. But, you absolutely refuse to quit trolling me. It is sure getting old.

qwert · #50 02-02-2019, 04:06 PM

Scope rings may be misaligned in several axes.
.
IMHE, scope ring alignment testing is MUCH improved using proper fitting & truly squared end round bars,
compared with the (IMHO, just silly) pointed bars sold for the purpose.

Pointed bars seem intuitive to the untrained, but IMHE they are MUCH harder to use and maintain, and perception of alignment of points using human eyesight is often less accurate than finger tips over square edges & tight gap.
IDNK of any easy way to accurately measure magnitude of misalignment between points, but this can easily be done with a micrometer (.0001”) over a square gap.
Visible light or a feeler gauge in the square gap will indicate or verify longitudinal alignment. Sensitive dial test indicators can measure alignment of surfaces to .0001’

Metal lathes are equipped with hardened and very accurately ground center points, but to most accurately align the tailstock to spindle center of rotation (before making a test cut,) flat faced center buttons can be placed over the lathe center points to enable measuring as previously suggested.
http://pacifictoolandgauge.com/lathe...tons-pair.html
https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-t...s-prod694.aspx

For simple scope work, precision ground shafting can be purchased from an industrial metal supplier or machine shop, and ends faced square in a lathe, (cut and hand ground square with a suitable abrasive cut-off saw is adequate for most purposes).

Good Luck, YMMV.

qwert · #51 02-02-2019, 04:08 PM

I agree that proper ring alignment is VERY important to avoid damaging or distorting the proper operation of the optic.

IMHO, lapping rings is attempting to ‘treat the symptom’, rather than ‘correct the cause’ of ring misalignment.

CAUTION: ‘Lapping rings” may void warranty of both scopes and rings.

IMHE, the only thing that is guarantied after lapping, is damaged rings.
Ever notice how many people want to keep a scope, but sell the rifle with rings?
I suspect these rifles may have misaligned mounts ‘corrected ???’ by DIY lapping, very possibly resulting in oversized or ‘out of round’ scope clamping surfaces.

IMHE, scope to ring misalignment is most likely caused by improperly fitted mounting to a less than perfect receiver.

I submit that time and effort is better spent properly ALIGNING AND BEDDING the mount(s) to the receiver,
(and also would be a more interesting and productive area for discussion)

I suggest a search here on AO or www for more information and discussion, try terms like “scope lapping” and “Bubba”.

Good Luck, YMMV

claykuch · #52 02-02-2019, 04:41 PM

Here is someone that can shed some light on this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ie3t3iLHGc&t=2358s

AndrewM · #53 02-02-2019, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by qwert

I agree that proper ring alignment is VERY important to avoid damaging or distorting the proper operation of the optic.

IMHO, lapping rings is attempting to ‘treat the symptom’, rather than ‘correct the cause’ of ring misalignment.

CAUTION: ‘Lapping rings” may void warranty of both scopes and rings.

IMHE, the only thing that is guarantied after lapping, is damaged rings.
Ever notice how many people want to keep a scope, but sell the rifle with rings?
I suspect these rifles may have misaligned mounts ‘corrected ???’ by DIY lapping, very possibly resulting in oversized or ‘out of round’ scope clamping surfaces.

IMHE, scope to ring misalignment is most likely caused by improperly fitted mounting to a less than perfect receiver.

I submit that time and effort is better spent properly ALIGNING AND BEDDING the mount(s) to the receiver,
(and also would be a more interesting and productive area for discussion)

I suggest a search here on AO or www for more information and discussion, try terms like “scope lapping” and “Bubba”.

Good Luck, YMMV

How come lapping rings would void a scope warranty?

Salavee · #54 02-02-2019, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuck

Centerpoint alignment bars are no good. They will not tell you if you have vertical misalignment. Flat bars are better for this.

Couda fooled me !

I don't waste my time trolling you. Your fooling yourself.

obsessed1 · #55 02-02-2019, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewM

How come lapping rings would void a scope warranty?

How do you claim warranty on rings?....will they take them back if they don't give 80% or better contact?? How do you tell unless you run a lap bar across them...dang the screws striped out...will they take them back then? What if my scope slips? .....honest Q who has received warranty on rings and for what? My guess is by lapping your not missing out much if all it does is voids warranty

No way a scope manufacturer will void scope warranty over lapped rings. It's not like it will or can damage scope in any way. If anything it will relieve stress on the tube not add stress

elkhunter11 · #56 02-02-2019, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewM

How come lapping rings would void a scope warranty?

Because by lapping, you are modifying the rings, and even though it isn't complicated, some people should not be lapping rings

AndrewM · #57 02-02-2019, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Because by lapping, you are modifying the rings, and even though it isn't complicated, some people should not be lapping rings

Yes but why would it affect your scope warranty? I have seen more damage done to scopes due to not lapping then I have due to lapping. You would have to totally mess up to get the scope destroyed due to lapping. I can see the rings but they don’t normally have a warranty.

AndrewM · #58 02-02-2019, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by obsessed1

How do you claim warranty on rings?....will they take them back if they don't give 80% or better contact?? How do you tell unless you run a lap bar across them...dang the screws striped out...will they take them back then? What if my scope slips? .....honest Q who has received warranty on rings and for what? My guess is by lapping your not missing out much if all it does is voids warranty

No way a scope manufacturer will void scope warranty over lapped rings. It's not like it will or can damage scope in any way. If anything it will relieve stress on the tube not add stress

Scope warranty. Not ring warranty.

obsessed1 · #59 02-02-2019, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewM

Scope warranty. Not ring warranty.

Read my second paragraph. Original post said rings and scope. I answered in regards to both

elkhunter11 · #60 02-02-2019, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewM

Yes but why would it affect your scope warranty? I have seen more damage done to scopes due to not lapping then I have due to lapping. You would have to totally mess up to get the scope destroyed due to lapping. I can see the rings but they don’t normally have a warranty.

If you badly messed up the rings, just tightening them could damage the scope.