More Inconvenient Truth about Electric Vehicles

[sako1]

Originally Posted by Scott h

You had better have that diesel plugged into a electric plug in or you aren't going any where in -40. By the way, what would it cost you to fill that "chipped " diesel ??????

No plug in necessary. ESPAR for the win!

[sako1]

Originally Posted by Scott h

As a matter of fact there is not one gas station left in downtown Vancouver. There are however a lot of charging stations
The bottom line is they will succeed due entirely to the fact that they are so much cheaper to own and operate ( about 1/10th).

There are at least 5 gas stations in downtown vancouver.

[79ford]

99% of the time people drive they dont go very far. It would be pretty convenient to have an electric car most of the time, households usually have multiple cars for multiple purposes. I got a truck for recreation and a very suitable car for work and around town etc.

People dont seem to realize the electric car is a full cycle thing not a single slot comparison.

Take alberta for example.

Bitumin mining-froth treatment-natural gas steam methane reforming( manufacturing hydrogen from natural gas using thermal energy and catilyst) thermal cracking, distillation, then hydrotreating ( in an upgrader that probably consumes 400-700megs of electricity) pumping the stuff down a pipeline with pumps utilizing thousands of horspower motors........then you get down to the refi ery which uses around 55 megs of electricity, oil is heated, distilled, reheated and hydrotreated ( hydrogen supplied by steam methane reforming of natural gas) all the non usable hydrocarbons get stored and pumped back into some form of fluid catylitic cracker or hydro cracker then reheated, distilled, reheated and hydrotreated.

Once you get the fuel to the back end of the refinery trains and trucks guzzling diesel drag the fuel to gas stations (with i ternal combustion engines making less than 30% efficiecy).

then you take your less than 30% efficeint car/gas guzzling suv/truck and drive it to the gas station and use an electric pump to fill it up with gas. You will probably spend alot of time idling warming the thing up this time of year....like your motor is turning but the wheels arent.



Electric car is, mine coal, burn coal to boil water, run turbine, transmit power and its in your car. Sounds pretty simple to me,lol, and i keep hearing coal and natural gas are cheap ways to make power

[HalfBreed]

yer all layin down.

Either is Hollywood.

I need to see the sun powered cars come to a halt when out of juice.

I want to see how this is portrayed by Hollywood. (I suspect a certain M. Douglas film to be somewhat realistic.)

Think about it.... left work early to have a (insert time waster here) and on route, the battery dies, gah!

Exciting stuff!

[Scott h]

Originally Posted by Joe Black

You don't buy new batteries. In 6 years you throw the batteries and the car I the landfill.

Quote;
"Nissan stated in 2015 that until then only 0.01 percent of batteries, produced since 2010, had to be replaced because of failures or problems and then only because of externally inflicted damage. Some vehicles have already covered more than 200,000 km (120,000 miles) with no battery problems"

[Scott h]

Originally Posted by sako1

There are at least 5 gas stations in downtown vancouver.

My bad. There is one left, I thought the one on Burrard and Davie was gone also.
https://globalnews.ca/news/3345237/h...own-vancouver/

[Mr Flyguy]

Originally Posted by Mulehahn

Yup, thst is true. Not single gas station left in "Downtown vancouver". Of course "downtown" is only about 3.75 sq/km and doesn't even equate to 4% of the City; not to mention the rest of metro Vancouver... there is no shortage of gss stations. As for London, yes it will br electric vehicle only soon but they swiftly are moving towards no vehicles will be interesting. Won't even need charging stations.

With over 2 million new cars sold in Canada in 2017 and similar in 2016, and probably again this year that means there will be 5.8 million (assuming 3% were electric) fossil fuel burning vehicles on the road til 2030 (given average life expectancy. Unless the government forces it on us.

Electric cars will be the future. But not for a long time. Even then, it all it will be doing is changing the source of the polution from end user supplier (unless the reported advancements in cold fusion are real)

HUH? Was this a headline in National Enquirer?

[Scott h]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

My diesel has an Espar. Starts just fine in -40 with no electricity. Any colder leaving it run all night works pretty good as well. Easy to sleep with the cummins purring outside over night. Comforting...

As much as Scott H from north van would like to have us believe the internal combustion engine's days are numbered, they are going to be around for a long time yet.
I won't see the days of electric construction, agricultural, mining, logging, oilfield, ect... equipment, as well as the vehicles that carry the required personal to those job sites. Sorry to burst your bubble Scott, but that's the way it is. You wanna cruise around downtown vancouver in an electric car, more power to ya. I could care less. Not a bad thing really. Electricity is needed, and in order to produce that electricity, more hydrocarbons are needed to fire the generating stations that are making it. Drive away Scott...do your part in keeping the oilpatch (and coal mines) going.

You got a couple things wrong;
-https://newatlas.com/komatsu-electric-dump-truck/51377/
-BC produces almost all of it's electricity from hydro
-I don't live in North Van
Plus I've got a few gas trucks, motorcycles, boats and cars so I burn my fair share of fossil fuels. I do however see the end game coming when you look at the difference in costs to run them. People will always vote with their wallets.

[hogie]

Originally Posted by 79ford

99% of the time people drive they dont go very far. It would be pretty convenient to have an electric car most of the time, households usually have multiple cars for multiple purposes. I got a truck for recreation and a very suitable car for work and around town etc.

People dont seem to realize the electric car is a full cycle thing not a single slot comparison.

Take alberta for example.

Bitumin mining-froth treatment-natural gas steam methane reforming( manufacturing hydrogen from natural gas using thermal energy and catilyst) thermal cracking, distillation, then hydrotreating ( in an upgrader that probably consumes 400-700megs of electricity) pumping the stuff down a pipeline with pumps utilizing thousands of horspower motors........then you get down to the refi ery which uses around 55 megs of electricity, oil is heated, distilled, reheated and hydrotreated ( hydrogen supplied by steam methane reforming of natural gas) all the non usable hydrocarbons get stored and pumped back into some form of fluid catylitic cracker or hydro cracker then reheated, distilled, reheated and hydrotreated.

Once you get the fuel to the back end of the refinery trains and trucks guzzling diesel drag the fuel to gas stations (with i ternal combustion engines making less than 30% efficiecy).

then you take your less than 30% efficeint car/gas guzzling suv/truck and drive it to the gas station and use an electric pump to fill it up with gas. You will probably spend alot of time idling warming the thing up this time of year....like your motor is turning but the wheels arent.



Electric car is, mine coal, burn coal to boil water, run turbine, transmit power and its in your car. Sounds pretty simple to me,lol, and i keep hearing coal and natural gas are cheap ways to make power

So electric vehicles magically stay at a comfortable 21 c year round without using energy?The Windows won't frost up? I can go out at minus 30 take off my jacket and just drive away and not be cold?

Still a lot labour and time that goes into battery production and electricity. No different than making gas and oil.

[BuckCuller]

Originally Posted by Scott h

You got a couple things wrong;
-https://newatlas.com/komatsu-electric-dump-truck/51377/
-BC produces almost all of it's electricity from hydro
-I don't live in North Van
Plus I've got a few gas trucks, motorcycles, boats and cars so I burn my fair share of fossil fuels. I do however see the end game coming when you look at the difference in costs to run them. People will always vote with their wallets.

Well if people vote with their wallets how did Trudeau get in?
Because my wallet is feeling lighter every day.
I think it exactly the opposite. I think more people are voting out of emotion than common sense and wallets.

[PartTimeHunter]

Originally Posted by 79ford

99% of the time people drive they dont go very far. It would be pretty convenient to have an electric car most of the time, households usually have multiple cars for multiple purposes. I got a truck for recreation and a very suitable car for work and around town etc.

People dont seem to realize the electric car is a full cycle thing not a single slot comparison.

Take alberta for example.

Bitumin mining-froth treatment-natural gas steam methane reforming( manufacturing hydrogen from natural gas using thermal energy and catilyst) thermal cracking, distillation, then hydrotreating ( in an upgrader that probably consumes 400-700megs of electricity) pumping the stuff down a pipeline with pumps utilizing thousands of horspower motors........then you get down to the refi ery which uses around 55 megs of electricity, oil is heated, distilled, reheated and hydrotreated ( hydrogen supplied by steam methane reforming of natural gas) all the non usable hydrocarbons get stored and pumped back into some form of fluid catylitic cracker or hydro cracker then reheated, distilled, reheated and hydrotreated.

Once you get the fuel to the back end of the refinery trains and trucks guzzling diesel drag the fuel to gas stations (with i ternal combustion engines making less than 30% efficiecy).

then you take your less than 30% efficeint car/gas guzzling suv/truck and drive it to the gas station and use an electric pump to fill it up with gas. You will probably spend alot of time idling warming the thing up this time of year....like your motor is turning but the wheels arent.



Electric car is, mine coal, burn coal to boil water, run turbine, transmit power and its in your car. Sounds pretty simple to me,lol, and i keep hearing coal and natural gas are cheap ways to make power

Except, coal is evil and is being shut down in the enlightened western world .... well at least in Rachel and Justin's Canada. Then there is the battery and heat issue....

[HVA7mm]

Originally Posted by Scott h

You got a couple things wrong;
-https://newatlas.com/komatsu-electric-dump-truck/51377/
-BC produces almost all of it's electricity from hydro
-I don't live in North Van
Plus I've got a few gas trucks, motorcycles, boats and cars so I burn my fair share of fossil fuels. I do however see the end game coming when you look at the difference in costs to run them. People will always vote with their wallets.

Exactly, I'm currently voting with my wallet now by driving a 19 year old 3/4 ton chev. Relative to the cost of the Tesla Model X that my friend bought his wife in November, I'll be able to drive my gas hog for another lifetime.

The Tesla is a beautiful vehicle however, and if I had the means.............But it hasn't been without it's problems, the MCU failed before Christmas and it was nearly two weeks before they sent a carrier up from Calgary to haul it down there for repair. No offer of a Tesla courtesy vehicle either, just a rental. Needless to say my buddy wasn't too happy with the customer experience. Three calls into the service line and all he got was the typical IVR option to leave a message. His tactic changed and he opted for the sales queue the fourth time, bingo someone answered the first ring. They got an earful.

[Trochu]

Originally Posted by hogie

So electric vehicles magically stay at a comfortable 21 c year round without using energy?The Windows won't frost up? I can go out at minus 30 take off my jacket and just drive away and not be cold?

Essentially yes, minus the magical part. Then can be set to pre-heat the interior while still plugged in to reduce secondary use of the battery.

[Jimvinny]

Originally Posted by HVA7mm

Exactly, I'm currently voting with my wallet now by driving a 19 year old 3/4 ton chev. Relative to the cost of the Tesla Model X that my friend bought his wife in November, I'll be able to drive my gas hog for another lifetime.

The Tesla is a beautiful vehicle however, and if I had the means.............But it hasn't been without it's problems, the MCU failed before Christmas and it was nearly two weeks before they sent a carrier up from Calgary to haul it down there for repair. No offer of a Tesla courtesy vehicle either, just a rental. Needless to say my buddy wasn't too happy with the customer experience. Three calls into the service line and all he got was the typical IVR option to leave a message. His tactic changed and he opted for the sales queue the fourth time, bingo someone answered the first ring. They got an earful.

You'd think spending those kinds of bucks would get you a little more customer service.

[hogie]

Originally Posted by Trochu

Essentially yes, minus the magical part. Then can be set to pre-heat the interior while still plugged in to reduce secondary use of the battery.

Still using energy, I can idle my car for 10 min and get in too. What happens when I can't plug in or the power goes out? Go somewhere for the day and cant plug in? No where to plug in at work. Electric is designed for perfect conditions. Less than that then they fail.

Gas is much more versatile at this time. I'm not against electric but still not seeing the benefits or advantage of owning one yet. If they were reasonably priced I would consider one.

[HVA7mm]

Originally Posted by hogie

Still using energy, I can idle my car for 10 min and get in too. What happens when I can't plug in or the power goes out? Go somewhere for the day and cant plug in? No where to plug in at work. Electric is designed for perfect conditions. Less than that then they fail.

Gas is much more versatile at this time. I'm not against electric but still not seeing the benefits or advantage of owning one yet. If they were reasonably priced I would consider one.

I'm thinking that EV's are designed for average conditions in most developed countries, not perfect conditions. The same argument could be used about vehicles using internal combustion engines being designed for perfect conditions (what if it throws a rod, what if the fuel pump fails, the starter piles up, head gasket leaks etc) There are any number of things to go wrong with gas/diesel powered vehicles and render them useless. Its just that vehicles using internal combustion engines have had a century head start to become as reliable as they are now (for the most part), and the same amount of time to get them to a competitive price pont (for the most part).

[barsik]

one aspect of electric vehicles is that as wind turbines and solar panels get cheaper you can "fill your own tank" unlike gas or diesel. extreme cold weather is a serious issue with electric batteries, and I don't know how or if this can be solved, but I am sure whoever devises a solution will be rich. one thing is sure, someone will, just as someone discovered a way to crack oil.

[hogie]

Originally Posted by HVA7mm

I'm thinking that EV's are designed for average conditions in most developed countries, not perfect conditions. The same argument could be used about vehicles using internal combustion engines being designed for perfect conditions (what if it throws a rod, what if the fuel pump fails, the starter piles up, head gasket leaks etc) There are any number of things to go wrong with gas/diesel powered vehicles and render them useless. Its just that vehicles using internal combustion engines have had a century head start to become as reliable as they are now (for the most part), and the same amount of time to get them to a competitive price pont (for the most part).

Electrics have been around for just as long as internal combustion engines in vehicles. Not exactly new technology. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hist...ectric_vehicle

Time will tell how reliable the new vehicles will be. Anything can fail. Electronics fail as easily as anything else.

[lmtada]

Most accidents happen to ages 16-24, and 80+. Insurance will skyrocket for drivers over 80+. Therefore in 30 years I will quit driving. EV May take over 30+ years from now. However I won’t be driving. Planes, trains and Electric automobiles.

[HVA7mm]

Originally Posted by hogie

Electrics have been around for just as long as internal combustion engines in vehicles. Not exactly new technology. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hist...ectric_vehicle

Time will tell how reliable the new vehicles will be. Anything can fail. Electronics fail as easily as anything else.

I realize that electric vehicles have been around for a long time, but hardly at a mass production level. I do like the thought of fewer moving parts, but as you pointed out electronic gremlins are bad enough to troubleshoot on vehicles that one may be familiar with, let alone a completely new animal. I'm not ready for an EV yet, even though it would satisfy 90 percent of my needs. Heck I would probably be farther ahead not owning any vehicles, but like almost every other North American I too love having a vehicle too much (actually 3 of them). My biggest concern going forward is how much electricity is going to cost if EV's become mainstream, and the subsidies have all dried up. It will make the high cost of fossil fuels seem like peanuts.

[Joe Black]

Originally Posted by Scott h

Quote;
"Nissan stated in 2015 that until then only 0.01 percent of batteries, produced since 2010, had to be replaced because of failures or problems and then only because of externally inflicted damage. Some vehicles have already covered more than 200,000 km (120,000 miles) with no battery problems"

Not talking about failures or damage. Must admit I pulled the 6 year comment out my arse. Life span is probably more in the ten year range. So Nissan has 5 years of data at that time. They state no battery problems.

What do they publish concerning battery “life”?????? What about capacity of a 5 year old battery or 10 year old battery vs a new one?

I’m not anti electric, just know a bit about the chemistry behind charge/discharge cycles of rechargeable batteries vs life expectancy.

To assume electric cars will not cause environmental damage from used batteries is a bit naive, at this stage of the game anyways.

[dgl1948]

I wonder what the range of an electric vehicle is when you have to run the air conditioning in these warm climates. It takes a fair bit of power to run the compressor. Do these test they publish take into account for real driving conditions???

[58thecat]

Bike paths are cleared, buy a bike, ride a bike.....

[CF8889]

My favorite part of all these threads is people argueing they have the true answers to one of the largest/complex industries currently going...all because they've googled the right stats and numbers. None of us really know what technology will be here 10-15years from now, or it's effects... but I am looking forward to it. Can't get much worse hahaha.

[silver]

What I am waiting for is the day when the large forehead types that work for the gov't suddenly realize...we aren't getting as much tax money from fossil fuels as we used to, maybe we should find a way to tax electricity that goes into a vehicle to maintain the roads.

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by Scott h

You got a couple things wrong;
-https://newatlas.com/komatsu-electric-dump-truck/51377/

Your link is broken. Likely your article is about an electric drive/diesel electric truck, which is not an EV. In the construction world however, it is getting much more common. If it is about an EV Komatsu it is nothing more than some people trying to do a conversion. The success rate of that project I suspect will be quite low. As of now, I'm unaware of any company working on any EV construction equipment. There may be some in planning phases, but those would be a decade away from production. Not 2020.

Originally Posted by 79ford

99% of the time people drive they dont go very far. It would be pretty convenient to have an electric car most of the time, households usually have multiple cars for multiple purposes. I got a truck for recreation and a very suitable car for work and around town etc.

People dont seem to realize the electric car is a full cycle thing not a single slot comparison.

Take alberta for example.

Bitumin mining-froth treatment-natural gas steam methane reforming( manufacturing hydrogen from natural gas using thermal energy and catilyst) thermal cracking, distillation, then hydrotreating ( in an upgrader that probably consumes 400-700megs of electricity) pumping the stuff down a pipeline with pumps utilizing thousands of horspower motors........then you get down to the refi ery which uses around 55 megs of electricity, oil is heated, distilled, reheated and hydrotreated ( hydrogen supplied by steam methane reforming of natural gas) all the non usable hydrocarbons get stored and pumped back into some form of fluid catylitic cracker or hydro cracker then reheated, distilled, reheated and hydrotreated.

Once you get the fuel to the back end of the refinery trains and trucks guzzling diesel drag the fuel to gas stations (with i ternal combustion engines making less than 30% efficiecy).

then you take your less than 30% efficeint car/gas guzzling suv/truck and drive it to the gas station and use an electric pump to fill it up with gas. You will probably spend alot of time idling warming the thing up this time of year....like your motor is turning but the wheels arent.



Electric car is, mine coal, burn coal to boil water, run turbine, transmit power and its in your car. Sounds pretty simple to me,lol, and i keep hearing coal and natural gas are cheap ways to make power

I just have to make a slight tweak to your steps to run an EV you missed one small step.

Electric car is, mine coal, Bitumin mining-froth treatment-natural gas steam methane reforming( manufacturing hydrogen from natural gas using thermal energy and catilyst) thermal cracking, distillation, then hydrotreating ( in an upgrader that probably consumes 400-700megs of electricity) pumping the stuff down a pipeline with pumps utilizing thousands of horspower motors........then you get down to the refi ery which uses around 55 megs of electricity, oil is heated, distilled, reheated and hydrotreated ( hydrogen supplied by steam methane reforming of natural gas) all the non usable hydrocarbons get stored and pumped back into some form of fluid catylitic cracker or hydro cracker then reheated, distilled, reheated and hydrotreated.

Once you get the fuel to the back end of the refinery trains and trucks guzzling diesel drag the fuel to gas stations (with i ternal combustion engines making less than 30% efficiecy). (All for the purposes of mining coal or drilling gas), burn coal to boil water, run turbine, transmit power and its in your car. Sounds pretty simple to me,lol, and i keep hearing coal and natural gas are cheap ways to make power

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by CF8889

My favorite part of all these threads is people argueing they have the true answers to one of the largest/complex industries currently going...all because they've googled the right stats and numbers. None of us really know what technology will be here 10-15years from now, or it's effects... but I am looking forward to it. Can't get much worse hahaha.

I agree, but most people aren't debating 15 years from now. People really believe the internal combustion engine will be relegated to history in months or a couple years. Lunacy.

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by 79ford

(with i ternal combustion engines making less than 30% efficiecy).

I don't believe any decently tuned gas engine is making less than 30% efficiency. Diesels are more like 45-50% efficient which is still an internal combustion engine. Also the fact that the waste heat is used to heat our cabs is never factored into that engines efficiency rating which is a main point in the OP's link provided. How much more efficient does that make the engine; its essentially a "co-gen" now? (I know its not generating electricity, but its using its waste and producing heat where an EV must rob its battery stores to do so.)

[Big Grey Wolf]

It only took almost 100 years to complete the technological development of the internal combustion engine. Actually Chrysler is still perfecting the Hemi V8 so do not feed me the bull that electric cars will be developed in under 10 years.

[Joe Black]

really need to ensure the carbon footprint and environmental impact of electrical consumption is considered when you see by % where North American Electrical Power comes from:

Natural gas = 33.8%
Coal = 30.4%
Nuclear = 19.7%
Renewables (total) = 14.9% Hydropower = 6.5% Wind = 5.6% Biomass = 1.5% Solar = 0.9% Geothermal = 0.4%
Petroleum = 0.6%
Other gases = 0.3%
Other nonrenewable sources = 0.3%
Pumped storage hydroelectricity = -0.2%4